.....

14:50:47 me356
great
Until we will get verified excess heat then I would like to start with new fuel.
With used fuel (where excess heat happened) you can heat it very fast.
Because pressure is low all the time. 

14:52:58 barty
hi

14:53:42 me356
hi
At the moment pressure is approx 0.2 bar + 1 bar atmospheric
it is 5x less than in Parkhomov experiment all the time. 

14:56:35 Mats002
Hi all, looking forward to an exciting night. Question to me356:
How have pressure changed with the decomposition of LiAlH4?
Pressure expect to rise somwhere between 100 and 200 C and then decrease?

14:58:01 me356
yes, this happened exactly as in Parhomov report, altough pressure is 5x lower.

14:58:14 Mats002
:thumbsup:

14:58:53 me356
the peak was 2 bars (1 + 1bar atmospheric)

14:59:29 Mats002
The 5x lower would be because you have more free volume in your setup than
Parkhomov had?

15:00:01 me356
yes, this is very likely.
tube in the pressure meter has 1mm internal diameter
and there is lot of free space in the reactor as well.
So for now we don't know if so low pressure is good or bad. 

15:07:50 Ecco the Dolphin
it looks like pressure suddenly decreased a few minutes ago

15:11:41 lowFish
How is the pressure gauge mounted in the reactor?
How is the measuring tube sealed in?
@me356 Earlier you thought that one part of the tube might have had
a higher concentration of LAH. This brings up the question,
how are you mixing the Nickel and LAH?

15:23:16 Rends
@me356 ... Could you please provide us with some information
what we actually see and what your expectations are?
Please explain the Reactor Live Data on LENR Live;
and please describe the test arrangement on the LENR Live Camera,
if you have some time.
(and could you please move the pressure measurement tool,
because it causes a shadow on the display behind THX)

15:29:54 Gerard McEk
Hi me356, I wish you all the best luck in the world with this attempt!
What controller do you use and what is the the voltage you can achieve? 

15:33:00 hendersonmjk
Checking in. Big day. me356 and possibly Denis Vasilenko too.

15:33:33 me356
Hi
Expectation is excess heat :) 

15:34:04 Rends
:D

15:34:16 me356
GlowFish: this was in the previous test.
I was very carefull to make fuel mixture very homogenous this time.
Multimeter is displaying voltage on the heater coil.
pressure is mounted hard there.
pressure meter 

15:37:56 Ecco the Dolphin
test: xxx*dropbox*com/s/kmtd282m88zco9x/0001-0051.mp4?dl=0

15:39:06 me356
I am saving screenshots each 900seconds

15:40:33 Rends
@both ...nice,so I can stop capturing! ;)

15:46:42 Ecco the Dolphin
from my video you can see that pressure dropped at some point 

15:50:26 hendersonmjk
Seal failure?
Ecco - I like the video. me356 - Could you put a timepiece
watch or small clock) in the frame for reference? 

15:59:15 me356
Ecco the Dolphin: very nice video
I can also create one after the test 

15:59:43 Ecco the Dolphin
it was 51 frames of animation at 8 fps. 1 frame = 1 minute

15:59:58 me356
I hope it was not sealing failure 
Actually I have checked the pressure carefully and it is at approx. 0.5bar
under athmospheric 

16:05:53 Gerard McEk
What did you assume there may be a sealing failure?

16:06:12 me356
it seems there isnt any failure

16:06:22 Gerard McEk
OK

16:06:54 me356
actually it could be better that we reached 0.5bar quite fast

16:08:23 Ecco the Dolphin
I have something else to show

16:08:27 lowFish
So the gauge still reads 0.5bar over atmospheric?
I suppose if it keeps rising then the seal is still good

16:08:28 Ecco the Dolphin
xxx*dropbox*com/s/3kruxq1gyc15obe/_1.jpg?dl=0
xxx*dropbox*com/s/zoguugswsfh2l97/_2.jpg?dl=0
try switching between both photos
you can see that the reactor moved a bit
check out the pressure gauge
.gif incoming
xxx*dropbox*com/s/v72ldxn6d1xffr1/reactormoved.gif?dl=0 

16:11:09 lowFish
Hmm. The tape holding the wires peels off a bit more but
I don't see any reactor movement. The gaugue might have
drooped a bit once the internal pressure in the tube dropped.

16:11:43 Ecco the Dolphin
isn't the pressure gauge rigidly attached to the reactor tube? 

16:12:19 lowFish
I would suppose so, but the small tube might be some what flexible.
I think the tube of the gauge just flexed due to the pressure difference.
The wire going over the tube moved a little as the tube did.
The wire peeling off the bottom is just the insulation tape failing I think.
A pity. Can't actually see the pressure reading in the camera photo 
me356: Are you still using PI control?
or are you using some kind of on-off control?
Or are those current "jumps" I am seeing just an artifact of
the low bit resolution of the Triac controller? 

16:36:29 Arnaud
Hello
Good luck me 

16:40:41 sveinutne
Nice to see you got a pressure gauge this time.
Is it above or below atm. pressure?

16:42:47 Gerard McEk
Hi Svein, at 16.08 it was 1,5 bar.

16:43:15 me356
at the moment it is at 0.5 bar

16:43:58 Gerard McEk
Above 1 atmosphere?

16:49:37 me356
no, under

16:50:01 sveinutne
That is fantastic
How much dead volume do you have? 

16:53:00 lowFish
Doesn't that gauge read relative pressure?
Or is it one that measures absolute i.e relative to vacuum?

16:53:50 me356
sveinutne: I can't answer it precisely, but there is relatively big dead volume.
GlowFish: I have calibrated the meter so it can
measure even 1bar AP - 1 bar = 0bar (absolute vacuum) 

16:55:02 sveinutne
I think that is very good, and now your pressure is close to Parkhomov.
This can be an interesting night. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

16:55:44 nobody
How hot do you plan to go before experimenting with power changes?

16:55:45 me356
so it show us absolute data in regards to vacuum.

16:55:50lowFish
Ah ok. Thanks

16:57:36 me356
All in all I want to use Swagelok fittings instead of epoxy resin.
I dont trust it too much. 

16:59:38 nobody
@me356 What is the current target temp?

16:59:46 me356
900°C
I am 70% certain there was very noticeable excess heat
in the previous fueled tests, but it was not possible to measure it.
It is longer story so I will describe it later on the forum.
So in the future tests I want to change few things so I can be sure. 

17:03:18 David Nygren
Hello

17:03:46 me356
Hello

17:04:05 David Nygren
Seems to be some activity here :)
Great 

17:04:16 lowFish
Bury the reactor in a box of sand to insulate it.
If there is excess anywhere then it should heat up the
whole reactor and not just a bit of it and be missed as it radiates away.

17:04:31 David Nygren
A question! I is not been completely updated last week.
me356 and Dennis Vasilenko, is this a this joint project? Who does what?

17:06:23 lowFish
Aren't me356's and Vasilenko's completely seperate projects?

17:07:16 me356
Yes, completely separated.

17:07:23 hendersonmjk
Yes, they are separate. Coincidentally both planned attempts today. 

17:07:31 David Nygren
Okey
So we have maybe two attempts today /tomorrow?

17:09:07 hendersonmjk
Vasilenko appears to be a ~28 yr old tinkerer who
lives in / came from Volgograd, about 1000 km south of Moscow.
me356 seems to prefer to be anonymous, and that is fine with me.
Vasilenko in a chat on the Russian equivalent of FB said
he needs to move all gear out of the house due to runs are too hot.
He may get things hooked back up in the new location this evening,
but there's a lot to reconnect. 

17:11:28 David Nygren
Thx for update :thumbup:

17:13:53 hendersonmjk
Didn't somebody try standard plumbing compression fittings
instead of Swagelok? (We used to joke that if Swagelok parts were
sold by the gram they would be priced higher than cocaine.)

17:24:31 sveinutne
Now we passed 500 degrees. Is there any change in pressure?
Obs 500 c 

17:25:35 Ecco the Dolphin
it doesn't seem to have changed

17:29:27 Mark Saker
im not seeing anything in the graph is that correct?

17:30:04 Ecco the Dolphin
xxx*dropbox*com/s/1pc58arcova6fpw/0001-0161.mp4?dl=0 
Mark Saker: there should be data visible 

17:31:43 sveinutne
I see 2 temp and current

17:41:07 Ecco the Dolphin
Peter Gluck hopes the testers won't do anything strange until
before reaching at least 1150 °C

17:54:50 me356
For next fueled run it is needed to make dead volume smaller than
at the moment (to get 5 bars as in Parkhomov case)

17:55:28 lowFish
What is the pressure now? It should have gone up a little

17:56:11 Ecco the Dolphin
no change as far as I can see

18:01:18 Patrik Wiksten
Evening boys and girls, good luck me!

18:07:46 Tarun
hi all , good to see another run :thumbup:

18:11:07 me356
Hi
Thank you! 

18:15:20 Arnaud
what is the current pressure? It is not easy to read from the Live camera
How was the shape of pressure ? Max pressure ? 

18:24:14 Majorana
@me: are you recording the pressure vs. time curve?
I've just entered the chat, sorry if this was said already.

18:34:19 hendersonmjk
The pressure initially rose +1 atmosphere but rapidly returned to ambient.
Some possibility the seal failed. If so, this is not a total waste of time. Instead this can serve as a calibration run
... power in vs temp data will be valuable. 

18:41:08 Majorana
Yes, definitely. And since the setup has not changed much since the last run
(except the swageloks), we actually already have calibration data.

18:43:24 Tarun
oh no... is it too late to stop the heating and fix any leaks ?

18:44:06 Majorana
actually.. does anyone recall what the pressure time curve of
Parkhomov looked like?
maybe this pressure falling is not necessarily bad? 

18:48:17 Tarun
pasting from parkhomov report -

Pressure increase began at about 100°C.
The maximum pressure of about 5 bar is achieved at a temperature of 180°C.
Thereafter, the pressure falls, and at temperatures above 900°C,
the pressure is less than atmospheric. The highest vacuum (about 0.5 bar)
occurred at a temperature of 1150°C.
Subsequently the pressure gradually approached atmospheric.

18:52:50 me356
There was 2 bar peak and then the pressure fell in few minutes to 0.5 bar

18:57:06 Tarun
is that pressure relative, i.e. 2 bar above atmospheric ?

18:57:09 Majorana
are you talking about your manometer now or about parkhomovs? =O

18:58:40 me356
absolute in my experiment
so the peak was 1 bar + 1 bar atmospheric 

18:59:25 Majorana
and now it is 0.5 bar?

18:59:28 me356
yes

18:59:45 Majorana
so there is no reason to speak about leakage people!

18:59:54 Tarun
which means no leaks
its below atm 

19:00:17 Majorana
this looks more like hydrides have formed.

19:00:38 me356
but this happened quite soon

19:01:46 Tarun
thats strange

19:01:47 me356
so I dont know what to think 

19:02:59 Ecco the Dolphin
still, keep on heating; it could very well turn out that
a partial pressure inside the cell is what enables excess heat,
and that the seal doesn't have to be perfect
personally looking forward to seeing >1100°C temperatures, though 

19:06:19 ical
We cannot well see the gamma display because the
shadow of the pressure display. Thanks.

19:06:55 Ecco the Dolphin
the most significant digits are visible

19:06:56 Majorana
well we can't see the last decimal..
right
not so important 

19:15:19 pelgrim108
MFMP is streaming this experiment live on youtube for the sake of
having a (preliminary) recording of the data
xxx*youtube*com/watch?v=zkWZ_iLqYrg
Bob greenyer explains here:
xxx*e-catworld*com/2015/05/23/live-parkhomov-style-lenr-test-by-me365-sat-may-9th/ 

19:20:41 hendersonmjk
me356 - You are doing great.
Don't change anything because of idle speculation from observers (like me).
Your experiments are among dozens that will teach us how to
ignite LENReactions reliably.

19:23:51 Tarun
at what point are we expecting the next decomposition of LAH ? anyone knows?

19:24:52 nobody
@me356: Do you have any observations on the pressure to note? Fluxuation?

19:25:05 Ecco the Dolphin
at this stage I think there is only LiH left, which should decompose above 900 °C

19:26:31 Tarun
we might see some pressure changes at 900C then

19:26:49 Ecco the Dolphin
currently the reactor tube is at a temperature at which LiAl alloy melts
also one at which aluminum nitride should start to form 

19:27:30 hendersonmjk
When heated LAH decomposes in a three-step reaction mechanism:
[12][13][14]
#1: 3 LiAlH4 ? Li3AlH6 + 2 Al + 3 H2 (150 to 170 deg C)
#2: 2 Li3AlH6 ? 6 LiH + 2 Al + 3 H2 (200 deg C)
#3: 2 LiH + 2 Al ? 2 LiAl + H2 Reaction
#3 is reversible with an equilibrium pressure of about 0.25 bar at 500 °C.

19:27:35 Ecco the Dolphin
which might cause a slight decrease in pressure

19:28:19 Gerard McEk
It seems that there is a copper heat shield around the reactor.
Is that correct?

19:29:00 hendersonmjk
Sounds like we are right on track with reaction #3.

19:29:21 Tarun
thanks hendersonmjk, so is it 500 or 900C? i am confused

19:30:09 hendersonmjk
The first two reactions are irreversible and happen at specific temps.
The third reaction is an equilibrium condition.
The ratio of left side vs right side will vary with exact P and T.
Wikipedia is my source 

19:32:11 Tarun
i see, that may mean that we will not see a clear pressure change 
hendersonmjk
It says at 500 degrees C, this will naturally
equilibrate to a pressure of .25 atm.

19:32:35 Tarun
but it seems Ecco has a different opinion

19:33:57 hendersonmjk
Yes ... adsorption of hydrogen on the surface of the NI and deep into
the Ni lattice will become a bigger factor at higher temperatures.
There are charts that show how fast H diffuses in Ni at temps. 

19:36:10 Ecco the Dolphin
Tarun: it's not exactly a perfect environment. It's likely that
much of the LiH will react with the Al forming LiAl and H2.
The portion which doesn't will decompose above 900 °C

19:36:29 hendersonmjk
Some of us believe that diffusion packs the crystal tighter,
constrains the protons in the center of the FCC crystal.
Heat and oscillating EM and the uncertainty principle combine to make it
have high momentum in a small confined spot. Whammo.

19:36:59 Tarun
ya, presence of Ni makes things complicated. pressure will not tell us whats
happening inside exactly, so lets go on.
hendersonmjk, does that predict a product or byproducts?

19:44:00 hendersonmjk
Not really. Piantelli's patent explained it in such terms.
The lugano report gives a clear footprint of Ni62 enrichment,
loss of Ni61 (the only natural isotope that has a magnetic moment),
and shift from Li7 to Li6. Lot's of mechanisms proposed for those.

19:46:46 Gerard McEk
Perhaps I am wrong, but the current seems to stabellize while the temp rises.

19:46:53 hendersonmjk
The "rattling in a tight cage" theory in my mind explains why
nuclei are forced to interact with each other and exchange neutrons.
Its a nanoscopic tokamak fusion vessel. ;)

19:49:37 Tarun
i agree, it is a very intuitive theory
Gerard, I m seeing that too 8)  @19:51: 3.1-3.15 A, 740C 

19:55:24 me356
Response is still around 30 seconds. This leads me to believe that
in previous runs there was probably excess heat,
yet not measurable by the thermocouple
as it happened in another part of the reactor.

19:58:42 Gerard McEk
Before the 700 C the current rose slowely but surely, now there is a different behaviour.

20:01:12 barty
hi, how is it going? something interesting happened?
just came in, sorry :/ 

20:03:28 Tarun
hi barty, everything is well and as usual :)

20:04:01 lowFish
What is the pressure at the moment?


20:04:10 Rical
probably the oscillations of temp/current come from
the delays hearter-current => core => external-temp.

20:04:31 barty
okay, thank you for the info @Tarun :)

20:07:38 sveinutne
What is happening with the temp?? Flat on 756?

20:08:35 lowFish
Still some delay between change in the heater power and the recorded temperature. is this due to the heat conduction rate of the
ceramic between the coil and the thermocouple?

20:09:03 me356
yes
Interestingly we have seen in previous runs that there were
strange fluctuations that caused 10-20°C difference without reason. 

20:13:49 barty
hmm strange 
but strange in positive 

20:14:13 Dionysius
The control I've seen is pretty good for so small a thermal mass... way to go!
What kind of controller are you using?

20:28:06 Gerard McEk
Can the PID factors of the controller be adjusted?

20:29:00 me356
It is implemented by me in the Arduino board.
Yes, it can be adjusted.
But to make tests comparable I dont want to change at the moment. 


20:29:34 Gerard McEk
I would increase the I factor to see if that makes the behaviour more stable.
Ok . Did the same happen in the control run? 

20:33:04 me356
actually increasing I makes it unstable
Now we know Parkhomov used 2 thyristors,
no bridge rectifier and relay to open these thyristors. 

20:38:15 barty
what does this mean? that he used 2 thyristors?

20:38:23 Gerard McEk
Interesting. The other possibility is to decrease the Proportional factor.
I assume the D factor is 0? The latter makes controlling often very
nervous and is not so often used in practice,
unless you need very quick responses.

20:38:27 me356
that it can be replaced by one Triac

20:39:08 barty
okay, but not a special wave form?

20:39:37 me356
no at all.

20:40:25 barty
hmm okay
@me356: do you know if parkhomov is doing further experiments?
or if he's helping a university in russia to setup one? 

20:41:28 me356
No, I dont know. This wasn't answered.

20:41:41 barty
hmm bad :/

20:43:06 Gerard McEk
So Parkhomov did on-off control with the thyristors and not PWM. Good to know!

20:43:17 me356
yes

20:43:30 barty
is PWM not a way of "on-off"?
with very short circles 
20:43:52 me356
Actually you can't use PWM with thyristor/triac very well.
to control it directly. 

20:44:41 Gerard McEk
Yes it modulates the sine-wave, but you cannot do the with the relays.
Then you switch them on and of during some seconds.

20:49:04 me356
So it seems that my current setup is very close to his and Rossi's.

20:50:05 barty
that's nice :)

20:50:18 me356
but it is possible that he just sending 100% power to it or nothing.
because relay is very slow. 

20:52:22 barty
do you know if you have positive pressure?

20:53:59 me356
yes, it is "negative"

20:54:35 barty
||

20:54:48 me356
actually this is good.

20:54:52 barty
do you have a leak?
ah okay? 

20:55:17 me356
It is approx at 0.5bar

20:55:26 barty
same as Parkhomov? first high pressure then absobed?

20:55:37 me356
yes

20:55:43 barty
:thumbup:

20:55:45 me356
But peak was only 2 bars.
but I can't guarantee it as the readings are analog and meter is nothing special.

20:56:18 barty
okay, but your data now more fit with Parkhomovs data then MFMP's data
Parkhomov also had a very simple one 

21:06:30 lowFish
@me356: The current seems to change in steps.
Is this intentional control or are the steps due to the
low resolution of the Triac controller board?

21:08:15 me356
it is low resolution.
this is the reason why I will build new control board.

21:26:45 Tarun
900C
(21:27:05) i notice current has bigger jumps than before 

21:28:26 lowFish
Phase control is a bit non-linear I think.
Steps at different phase angles give different power jumps.

21:29:40 me356
Yes, very true.

21:31:36 nobody
At what temp did Parkhamov see excess heat?

21:33:24 Tarun
above 700C

21:38:20 Ecco the Dolphin
I'm thankful for the faster rate of temperature increase :D
not sure if I'll manage to stay awake to witness this to the end 

21:39:16 Jarovnak
Yes temperature is much more responsive to controller

21:39:58 Rends
interesting curve

21:40:10 Jarovnak
just joined. is power source now TRIAC based?

21:40:10 Dionysius
Phase angle fired controller is much smoother than any other commonly available control...

21:41:57 Tarun
how does the power needed to maintain 900C compare with previous run ?
anyone has old data to compare ?

21:44:32 Jarovnak
Can you blow ccurrent trace up on graph
so we can see changes controller is applying Me

21:45:37 me356
It is quite same to previous run.

21:45:42 Jarovnak
Great work ME, exciting test!

21:46:25 artefact
Jarovnak: you can click the autoscale button on top of the graph.
That makes it bigger.

21:46:31 lowFish
The raw data is coming from me356's apparatus
but the graph is rendered on your local computer.
I think you can change the scales by dragging the axis with your mouse.

21:46:46 Jarovnak
Thanks

21:46:58 Tarun
Thanks Me, for looking up.

21:47:54 Jarovnak
Great good picture of power now
Looks like process time constant on order 4 minutes or so! 

22:00:35 Tarun
Probably Dr Rossi is also watching this experiment now.
See the Rossi Blog reader :)

22:03:14 Jarovnak
At 21:58 approximately small step in power more or less
& temp respond in about 4 minutes?

22:05:18 Tarun
yes, it takes 4-5 mins

22:05:34 Majorana
I had to go offline for a hour. Has the pressure changed significantly?
Still at 0.5 bar? 

22:06:33 me356
it is approx 0.7-0.8 bar

22:07:01 Jarovnak
I think Rossi will join us!
Just maybe he will comment, nice fellow!

22:07:51 lowFish
Ah, so the pressure has increased?
Thats actually good to hear as it implies no leaks.

22:08:00 Majorana
wrong, if it increases from 0.5 to 0.8 there could be a leak 

22:09:00 lowFish
Well, it would expect whatever is in there
to have expanded by now from temperature alone. if it stays fixed
at 0.5 despite a 400deg temp rise I would wonder a little.

22:10:09 Tarun
Majorana, how ?


22:16:22 Majorana
0.5 bar means the pressure inside is below the ambient pressure.
If there is a leak there won't be hydrogen or other gas streaming out of the tube in Contrast there will be air streaming inside the tube.

22:16:31 penswrite
Or, a leak in (but not Linkdin).

22:16:51 Jarovnak
Just told Andrea you are approaching 990 C & he should join us!


22:17:14 Majorana
me: is the pressure still increasing?

22:17:17 barty
@Jarovnak: nice :thumbup:

22:17:20 Gerard McEk
I have been trying to determine the controlling behaviour of your ardrino,
but that is not easy with these moving scales.
Nevertheless I think the controller is slow in reacting on a change.
It has some time delay which makes it onstable.
I do not think it is the Triac controller.
Maybe you can first do that checking ME386 otherwise you do change something what does not work. :S

22:18:30 Ecco the Dolphin
video of all screen grabs so far,
you can judge for yourself how much pressure is changing over time:
xxx*dropbox*com/s/tu2w1red3vhg5iy/0001-0442.mp4?dl=0

22:19:00 lowFish
@Majorana. It is possible that air could be leaking in
and increasing the pressure but the pressure should also
have naturally increased because of the higher temperature.
Either the tube is still sealed and the gas is expanding naturally
or the leak is extremely tiny.

22:19:08 Ecco the Dolphin
I think quality will be better if you download it
instead of viewing it streamed

22:19:44 me356
Gerard McEk: I have described the problem many times in previous tests.
There is a problem with heat transfer delay between
the heater and thermocouple.
So the controller can make changes with at least 30s delay.

22:20:21 penswrite
Seems like the ~5 minute interval sign-wave pattern/response
has repeated several times. This could be inspired by the lag-delay.

22:20:24 me356
But at the same time I do not want to change anything in PID
so the test could be comparable.

22:21:27 Jarovnak
Yes thats probably a normal cycle to the ramp demand & thermal response!

22:22:02 penswrite
me356, no worries. Thanks for your work!

22:22:05 me356
It is like steering heavy rock on the water surf.

22:23:28 penswrite
(And, hoping for ignition and lift-off.)

22:23:58 Gerard McEk
Ok, I saw it right. That makes controlling difficult.
A two stage controller may solve this.

22:24:17 Jarovnak
I like the noisyness of the power input,
just maybe you will excite some LENR response soon!
Gerard I don't think we want smooth control. The nosier the better!

22:26:59 Tarun
LiH could have disintegrated fully by now,
which can explain the slight pressure rise

22:27:11 Jarovnak
The problem in the past has been too smooth a power input & no LENR response!

22:27:17 Tarun
note that the volume is bigger this time

22:27:20 lowFish
Is a noisy supply actually needed?
Didn't Parkhamov use an on-off based controller? That would have been just AC.

22:28:02 Jarovnak
He sure did & even got the neighbors interest in what was going on with power!

22:29:00 Gerard McEk
I think LENR would fall asleep with these dull slow noises.
You need strong sharp di/dt! that makes it awake X( X(

22:29:01 me356
I think that it is not so important to get perfect temperature control,
in Lugano report we can see that temperature cycled in wide range.

22:29:11 penswrite
@ecco: not sure if your video shows any movement in the pressure gauge.
Do you? What is the actual time scale of the screen-captures ?

22:29:27 Jarovnak
Parkhomov also used a Russian TRIAC
& I think Peter Gluck said you couldn't get much noisier!

22:29:48 Gerard McEk
very true!

22:30:37 Jarovnak
Right on Me 356
The LENR emits high EM & I believe it need some to start & control it properly!

22:32:12 Ecco the Dolphin
penswrite: you're right in that it doesn't seem to show any movement.
each frame = 1 minute and the video was made at 25 frames per second.
you can see pressure rise and fall in the beginning, and that's all.
at least from these screenshots 

22:33:51 penswrite
Do you have a grab of the data?

22:33:52 me356
indeed pressure change is very minimal
so it is probably not visible from the screenshots

22:33:53 Majorana
Do you think that in order to check if there has been any leakage
maybe we could cool down the reactor to, say, 900°C after the run
and check if pressure falls again to 0.5 bar?

22:33:57 hendersonmjk
Denis Vasilenko has delayed his test several days to construct
a second reactor to run in parallel.

22:34:37 penswrite
@Ecco: Do you have/know of a data grab video?

22:35:10 Ecco the Dolphin
penswrite: I have not attempted that nor I'm aware of anybody else who did

22:35:34nickec
@hendersonmjk That parallel run that Denis plans will be very telling.
I am counting the hours down till that. ;)

22:35:59 Majorana
Or in other words do you think the pressure time curve is completely reversible?
If so it is a definite proof that there are no leaks.

22:36:30 nickec
@me What would you say the pressure is right now?
@me What do you believe your free space is? 

22:41:28 Gerard McEk
It starts to glow... :evil:

22:41:55 me356
I think that pressure time curve is not reversible.
It can't be from my point of view.
If so, then Parkhomov re-heated/used fuel ended with explosion.

22:43:26 nickec
Only 1 in 161 million of the world are in this chat.
Interesting. 45/7.2 billion

22:43:51 Majorana
hm.. maybe you are right, if there are too many morphological
changes in the fuel material due to melting etc..
but all the reactions like hydride formation that are
responsible for pressure drops should be reversible in principle.. 

22:44:42 lowFish
That insulation tape isn't holding. Maybe cable ties might hold.
The curve might not be perfectly reversible as there would have been chemical reactions. The gas pressure however should drop if the reactor cools.

22:44:45 Majorana
but yes if the fuel melts and changes its surface per volume ratio you are right

22:44:48 Rical
@me356: could you now, before 1050C,
try to change the current + or - 0.1 A in short steps,
to see if the strange disturbs in other runs continue or not to exist ?

22:45:28 Jarovnak
Its already changing by .2 amps blow up you traces

22:45:45 nickec
@me What would you say the pressure is right now?
@me What do you believe your free space is? 

22:46:28 Majorana
but if we however do see a pressure drop below 1 bar again during the reverse
cooling and heating path we at least have the proof that there is no leak

22:46:38 me356
I think that so if pressure meter does not lie.
Altough it is possible there was a leak long time ago.
nickec: it is approx. 5-4mm diam., l=10cm cylinder volume + diam.=1mm,
l=10cm cylinder volume + little bit space in the manometer

22:51:56 nickec
Thanks me.
If you were forced to guess the pressure right now, what do you think it is?

22:53:11 Jarovnak
My current scale is 4.25 to 4.55 amps & putting out
a nice power related trace on graph.
Another approximat .25 amp step just went in at 22:50
Its almost like a pulse width modulated control input.
The thermal response time constant is still approximately 4 minutes.

22:56:36 me356
Now the reactor is controller manually, no PID involved.

22:56:42 Jarovnak
I like the controller input Me356 we should see something soon, hopefully!
Great
Some sharp steps down may excite some LENR while
still protecting the fuel rod & instruments.

22:58:25 barty
@me: what is the maximum temp you plan to go to?

23:03:41 David Nygren
pelgrim108
Hello
did you record the chat? :) 

23:04:18 me356
we will see :)

23:04:26 David Nygren
:)

23:04:32 barty
:thumbup:

23:04:44 artefact
:D

23:04:46 LENR Calender
people are gonna go bonkers seeing the temp higher than the set point :)

23:04:49 nickec
:!:

23:05:09 Jarovnak
He's in manual, No?

23:05:19 artefact
Yes

23:05:23 LENR Calender
yep

23:05:35 barty
didn't Parkhomov stay at a specific temp and then got after
a few minutes (30 - 60) suddenly excess heat without doing anything?

23:05:40 nickec
It is the amperage that is the key measure.
If it drops and stays dropped, an explanation must be found.


23:05:49 pelgrim108
@ David yes starting at 14.00

23:05:54 barty
or do I confuse something here?

23:06:19 David Nygren
Great @pelgrim108

23:06:28 Mashukun77
So, is this it finally??

23:06:36 nickec
The explanation favored here, for an amperage drop,
is "the core is making excess heat".

23:06:46 LENR Calender
Parkhomov kept a steady temp with the controller lowering the input over time

23:08:00 barty
humm okay ||

23:08:40 Jarovnak
I think ME had some LENR present in his last shutdown?

23:08:50 lowFish
@me356 With your controller, after holding it steady for a while
is it possible to set the current on a downward ramp
i.e can you change the control input to current instead of temperature?

23:09:58 Jarovnak
Yes I think Me 356 is moving current himself if I am not mistaken now!

23:10:22 barty
Jarovnak, yes, he said this a few minutes ago

23:10:34 Jarovnak
When in manual you have control of current.
Could step current to zero then bring it back to 4.6 amps to excite LENR

23:14:02 barty
hmm looks like this is actually working @Jarovnak

23:14:34 LENR Calender
are small changes from 4.6 to 4.4 something done manually
or just random fluctuations?

23:15:12 Jarovnak
Manually I bet

23:15:32 Tarun
@22:56 : 4.5A, 1080C, start of holding

23:15:46 LENR Calender
its kinda fun to watch this in auto scale mode

23:15:57 Jarovnak
Yes

23:16:50 barty
wow it's climbing

23:17:12 Jarovnak
Think I'll tell Rossi we are at 1080 C

23:17:29 LENR Calender
he seems to go back up when the temp starts to come down

23:17:39 barty
yes looks so
he should try to make this steps a little bit shorter

23:17:57 Jarovnak
He's holding manually

23:18:11 barty
a moment before you can expect the fall in temperature

23:18:16 nickec
I see a promising trend. Hope it continues.

23:18:32 Jarovnak
I think he should make the steps down deeper

23:18:43 barty
:!:

23:19:05 LENR Calender
I guess he just upped it

23:19:33 Jarovnak
Yes he is driving it up

23:20:36 goax
1110°C - Do we know where the thermocouple is?

23:21:23 Jarovnak
No problem with TC indicated so far
Can you get to 1200 Me? 

23:22:56 LENR Calender
now down a bit, lets see if the temp holds

23:23:17 nickec
Hope I am not premature. Still looks like temperature
is climbing disproportionately in comparison to amperage.

23:23:19 hendersonmjk
Please stop.
This isn't science.
Let it equilibrate for a while ... 20 minutes. Then make a change.
Then wait again.

23:24:28 Jarovnak
Still responding to step up, no problem!
Are you getting tired Me?

23:25:55 LENR Calender
looks like 20 minutes would be a long time if its late over there
maybe he just wants to run it higher and then let it equilibrate

23:26:39 me356
I am not tired at all :)

23:26:56 penswrite
@hendersonmjk: I'll settle for alchemy, Me. Thanks.

23:26:57 LENR Calender
kinda fun checking how the thing reacts to small changes though

23:27:07 barty
at the moment it looks like something is happening :huh:

23:27:08 Jarovnak
It only take 4 minutes to equilibrate from responses so far

23:27:15 Rends
xxx*elforsk.se/Global/Omv%C3%A4rld_system/filer/LuganoReportSubmit.pdf
...have a look at page 23, we are nearly in the region
where we can compare the temperature curve with the eCat in Lugano

23:28:17 barty
nice @Rends

23:28:24 LENR Calender
is 1200 the magic number still

23:28:34 Jarovnak
Great

23:30:16 barty
I've the feeling that we currently see the first signs of excess heat
what do you mean? Tarun
Me, if you want to jump the current, let it jump equally between
high and low and for equal time, so the average power
remains constant and we can conclude something

23:31:03 barty
the curve looks weired

23:31:09 adam
Difference is further separating between Reactor temp and Set temp
... is that of any significance, or expected?

23:31:40 hendersonmjk
Scientific method: Hypothesis = "If is set current to X, temperature will do Y"
Like Tarun suggests.

23:32:10 adam
Also, what is the voltage? 220v?

23:32:15 LENR Calender
adam set temp is irrelevant now, he's in manual mode

23:32:20 Tarun
adam, the setpoint is not in use now

23:32:23 adam
Oh, gotcha, thanks

23:32:42 LENR Calender
henderson's got a point, I hope we try a constant input at some point

23:32:54 Jarovnak
He has control of input current

23:33:18 nobody
Rossi has said Hot Cat operates at 1200C. So maybe that is the critical temp?

23:33:37 barty
possible
this temp is reached in a few minutes 

23:34:09 Majorana
If on the right display the voltage is shown then this time we have
a temperature of 1150°C at the same current but a lot lower voltage
last time it was 120 V this time only 70 V? 

23:34:41 Jarovnak
If he switched back to auto it would probably shut
current off for a while till he got to setpoint

23:34:51 penswrite
A pause in current, @ 1200?

23:35:05 Tarun
I guess we saw a 20C increase when the current
was held from 22:56 onwards before the jumps started...

23:35:08 LENR Calender
ya @ 1200 it might be nice
then turn it down after it's stabilized
right now we're just all trying to decipher micro patterns
at least i am 

23:36:51 Jarovnak
No it all makes perfect sense what Me 356 is doing

23:38:19 Chuck
Why is the video not showing something glowing?

23:38:29 penswrite
Trying to simply raise temp, fairly steadily, until target. (Or launch.)

23:38:32 goax
It does

23:38:41 Jarovnak
How high have you been before Me

23:39:19 lowFish
Assuming any kind of LENR reaction ramps up over a period of time,
otherwise you need to compare the data to a
calibration dry run to see if there is any difference.

23:39:23 barty
Chuck, if you have javascript enabled and are looking at this page:
lenr-forum*com/forum/index.php/CustomPage/?id=9
the image should update automatically

23:40:30 Chuck
That did the trick. Thanks.

23:41:20 Majorana
@lowFish right, we need the calibration curve before we're able to judge 
what was the link for the pressure data again? 

23:47:41 penswrite
@Majorana: Thanks to Ecco, here is the link:
"(to the) video of all screen grabs so far,
you can judge for yourself how much pressure is changing over time:
xxx*dropbox*com/s/tu2w1red3vhg5iy/0001-0442.mp4?dl=0

23:47:56 LENR Calender
alright now we're talking - 1200 coming up

23:48:16 barty
yes yes yes
I am nervous :D 

23:48:49 Rends
me too :thumbsup:

23:48:57 Tarun
:thumbsup:

23:49:01 barty
8o

23:50:41 megamix
xxx*lenr-forum*com/forum/wcf/images/smilies/unsure.png

23:51:06 Majorana
@me: is the voltage really 80 V?

23:51:52 lowFish
What was the coil resistance supposed to be again?

23:52:40 me356
Majorana: voltage measurement at this time is directly from the heater coil

23:52:42 Majorana
It would mean we have a smaller input power than last time
but the same temperature
ok! 

23:53:03 nobody
Hey, this is looking interesting, irratic amperage

23:53:06 LENR Calender
1199.6!
23:53:21
nobody: the input is manual 

23:55:17 barty
me356, try to stay at a temp now

23:55:21 Rends
1205,5

23:55:32 barty
It looks like it increases also without increasing the current

23:56:07 Majorana
So there are only two parameters left that Parkhomov could have made differently.
Either he had different fuel (some secret ingredient without telling us,
which would be very unscientific)
or he used a different signal to excite the coil.

23:56:38 me356
current is somehow unstable at the moment.

23:56:42 barty
I meant keep the current, sorry

23:56:58 me356
Majorana: signal is known now. 
Jarovnak: Parkohomov used a Russian TRIAC power source

23:57:19 barty
maybe you reached the limits of your hardware?

23:57:27 LENR Calender
doesnt look like the temp is holding up

23:58:07 me356
very strange things are happening

23:58:08 LENR Calender
when reducing the input

23:58:10 Jarovnak
Me356 had everything under perfect control & is leading

23:58:19 goax
Would it be an idea to set the PID on again with a setpoint at 1200°C?

23:58:24 LENR Calender
might need to go higher
ya set it up at 1200 and take a bathroom break

23:59:12 Rends
OK with current between 75 and 80 he can control the temperature ...very nice

23:59:14 lowFish
Perhaps your source voltage of the buildings supply might be fluctuating.
Probably the PID will keep it steady.

23:59:17 Jarovnak
He could put the PID back on to take a well desirved brake

00:00:16 penswrite
Me, "very strange things are happening"
Please take a well deserved bathroom break--especially if men in black appear.

00:00:28 megamix
I agree with calender, need go be higher

00:00:42 barty
hmm whats happening now?

00:00:59 me356
something failed

00:01:06Jarovnak
Yes lets go higher

00:01:09 lowFish
Maybe let it run for a bit at 1200 with the PID.
See if anything changes after a while.

00:01:48 Majorana
probably the coil failed..
the wire disintegrated maybe 

00:02:08 lowFish
Oh dear. Looks like a coil failure

00:02:09 barty
@me: unrepairable failed or are you just playing around to find out what it is?

00:02:16 Jarovnak
Stll showing current

00:02:23 Majorana
since all parameters are exactly like parkhomov's
we should see heat after death now

00:02:28 Tarun
ya perhaps heater burnout
thats why the current went wild 

00:02:41 LENR Calender
thats the ultimate HAD test

00:02:59 Majorana
if not Parkhomov did not tell us the truth.
the whole truth

00:03:08 lowFish
Oh wait. meter is showing 0V. Triac board burnout?

00:03:20 David Nygren
heater burnout i think :(

00:03:26 LENR Calender
guess no HAD

00:03:38 nobody
interesting, looks to be failure at 1200C

00:04:10 pelgrim108
live camara is dark
power failure? 

00:04:33 barty
complete blackout now?

00:04:35 Rends
looks like a meltdown?

00:04:48 barty
ah its back

00:04:56 pelgrim108
camara back up

00:04:58 megamix
Requiescat in pace !!!

00:05:43 me356
it is dead :-B

00:05:48 lowFish
I suppose it depends on the meter position,
but shouldn't it still show full voltage if
measuring across the coil even if the coil burnt out?

00:05:55 barty
=O

00:06:06 me356
It seems that either heater failed or connection to the heater.
There are lot of melted things around :D
but prior to that it was possible to see very strange glow

00:07:04 Tarun
happened exactly at 00:00 :D

00:07:09 me356
so probably heater

00:07:17 Majorana
can you read the pressure me?

00:07:38 barty
okay guys, I'll go to sleep now
thank you me356! 

00:07:47 LENR Calender
looks like we need to go higher next time

00:07:50 barty
good night
:sleeping: 

00:07:56 LENR Calender
1200 doesnt seem to cut it
thanks for the show 

00:08:04 Rends
@barty: good night !

00:08:25 me356
pressure was still at 0.5 bar
or around 

00:08:38 Majorana
and now?

00:08:46 lowFish
Hmm

00:08:52 Majorana
can you still measure?

00:09:07 me356
yes, but I have to return there.

00:09:20 Jarovnak
Nice attempt Me 356, Thanks for your efforts & sharing! 

00:09:25 Patrik Wiksten
Thx for a good show, nite all!

00:09:31 me356
no problem
we will continue next time. 

00:09:55 penswrite
Ditto the thanks, Me356.

00:10:04 Majorana
So what is the "magic" ingredient that Parkhomov does not want to tell us?

00:10:18 penswrite
Hope its not truth 

00:10:24 me356
I think that it is pressure.

00:10:33 nobody
Thank You!

00:10:33 Majorana
Because there is no HAD

00:10:34 LENR Calender
ctrl c ctrl v

00:10:37 kenko1
patience

00:10:41 Majorana
maybe..

00:10:43 David Nygren
Good work! Step by step, and your work is very important.
More and more people become motivated to make the effort.

00:10:47 Majorana
@LENR Calender: Maybe 

00:11:08 me356
I will try to check pressure 

00:11:10 LENR Calender
who knows - gotta keep trying though

00:11:25 Majorana
Yes!

00:11:33 lowFish
Parkhomov had higher initial pressures didn't he.
Still need to determine whether that rapid pressure drop
near the beginning wasn't a leak

00:11:43 Majorana
Yes 

00:12:09 lowFish
Well, thanks for the run.
Hope the fault is something simple to fix 

00:15:32 me356
pressure is still at 0.5
so probably there was a leak. 

00:16:24 lowFish
Give the gauge a tap or two with a pole 

00:17:05 Majorana
But if it stays at 0.5 bar there should be no leak right?

00:17:39 me356
it is possible that epoxy glued it somehow..
but not very likely 

00:18:08 Majorana
I think there are still hydrides inside that would be good for us

00:18:14 Tarun
it should go down if there is no leak, because its cold now 

00:18:17 Majorana
then you could just use the tube again

00:18:42 Tarun
if this is a leak, we can call the experiment inconclusive

00:19:00 Majorana
well it was at 0.5 bar when we heated it initially..
so maybe it is at least reversible to some "smaller degree"

00:19:07 Tarun
else it is a negative result

00:19:56 lowFish
Its all assuming that the gauge didn't jam at 0.5 for some reason,
if something didn't block the tube.

00:20:03 Majorana
If pressure increases ( at least a little bit) at below 180°C again..
then we know for sure 

00:20:32 me356
I rather think it was leak. 

00:20:46 Tarun
;)

00:20:55 me356
I have examined video from the run and it seems that whole pressure meter moved
in the time of the leak 

00:21:32 lowFish
Well, if there was no leak and the gauge was still good,
it will revert to 1 again when you open the reactor
But that pressure drop at the beginning was quite sudden.
Still, the run showed your reactor design could stay at 1200 for quite some time.

00:23:41 Tarun
you faced the same problems, that others are struggling with -
leaks and burnouts, only parkhomov managed to solve them

00:23:43 Rends
@me356 around 1200°C your voltmeter went down from 80V to 74 Volt,
was that an error or something you did manual?
... and afterwards in went up to 85V

00:25:55 Majorana
@Tarun I am not sure about the latter.
Maybe he solved his problems with Ctrl C + Ctrl v 

00:26:19 Tarun
Rends, it can be a sign of sudden short and then a break.

00:26:52 Rends
@ Tarun ...yes, looks like something like that

00:26:54 Tarun
Majorana, He released the raw data, without CtrlC
and apologised in public 

00:28:21 me356
Current heater lasted for all the runs.
So actually it was very good.
I am not sure yet what happened
We will see tommorow. 
Maybe only cable connection failed 

00:29:43 nickec
xxx*naturalbuildingblog*com/wp-content/uploads/rossi-lenr-hot-cat.jpg
Note doubled twisted leads. 

00:30:09 me356
yes, this is nice

00:30:26 David Nygren
Tomorrow we hope for a new attempt by our Russian friend Denis.

00:30:30 me356
all in all I think that temperature of 1200°C is not necessary

00:30:44 nickec
Could be.

00:30:46 me356
There should be excess heat from 500 - 750°C.

00:30:49 Majorana
@Tarun Did Parkhomov admit that the HAD was a result of Ctrl C and Ctrl V? What do you mean by apologize?

00:31:03 nickec
500-750 seems possible. 

00:31:41 me356
so for next tests I think that epoxy resin is not good at all.

00:31:44 nickec
Ctrl C V not a factor in HAD.

00:32:05 artefact
I think Parkhomov only got excess heat at ~700
after he went first to over 1200 in a first run.

00:32:08 nickec
Only a factor in other areas of plot. 

00:32:19 me356
It is in a bad condition.

00:32:28 Tarun
Majorana, no he admitted doing interpolation of missing data,
and apologized for not mentioning it. See e-catworld blog for details.

00:32:35 Rends
Not nessecary, but may be at 1200°C and higher
something like the self sustain mode begins ..

00:32:37 me356
artefact: yes, but excess heat was noticeable from 500°C 

00:32:51 nickec
Can you place destroyed parts in front of webcam?

00:33:05 me356
It is very hot at the moment
so we have to wait
Now I will go to bed. 

00:33:22 nickec
Understood. No tongs.

00:33:25 Majorana
Is pressure back at ambient?

00:33:30 nickec
Sleep well.

00:33:42 Majorana
Good night,

00:34:02 Rends
Good Night!

00:34:05 artefact
:sleeping:

00:34:10 me356
thank you very much!

00:34:30 Tarun
thanks and see you again ....

00:35:01 Majorana
Thank you!
 
00:35:21 pelgrim108
Thanks ME sleep well. :)

00:35:41 kenko1
thanks for trying 

.....