If someone is interested in this going below the quantum description, for example to understand how electron could help with overcoming the coulomb barrier while fusion, there is a very nice conference about emergent quantum mechanics in Vienna the next weekend (23-25 X, free attendance):
http://www.emqm15.org/
there will be Aharonov, 't Hooft, and many others.
Proceedings from the previous two (the first was opened by Couder and his walking droplets):
http://iopscience.iop.org/1742-6596/361/1
http://iopscience.iop.org/1742-6596/504/1
presentations (with recordings) from 2nd (also of Couder and Faber):
http://www.emqm13.org/abstracts
Electron-assisted fusion
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Here is example of electron's trajectory for single proton (in (0,0)) from Mathematica notebook attached in the first post - electron performs nearly (angular momentum is nonzero) free-fall on the nucleus and Lorentz force (electron's magnetic dipole moment - proton's charge) bends its trajectory to nearly backscattering:
There is no free fall of an electron on to a proton. The magnetic field of the proton is not a gravity like field and always induces a counter force. Further on the energy of the e field is to small to allow fusion between an electron and a proton.
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Wyttenbach, what is crucial here is not magnetic field of proton, but of electron - which is huge comparing to electron's mass, especially for free-falling electron: preventing it from falling into the nucleus ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-fall_atomic_model ).
We are talking about kind of dual Lorentz force: for magnetic dipole (electron) traveling in electric field (of nucleus) - classical analogue of spin-orbit interaction.
To see existence of this force, let's change coordinates for a moment: such that electron is at rest and proton is traveling - in electron's magnetic field, getting standard Lorentz force, which through 3rd Newton law acts also on electron.
Here is a more formal derivation of Lagrangian and force: -
We are talking about kind of dual Lorentz force: for magnetic dipole (electron) traveling in electric field (of nucleus) - classical analogue of spin-orbit interaction.
The Lorenz force acts perpendicular to the E x B field and drives the masses apart. An electron at rest is a very rare species and not a suitable model.
The complete Lagrangian for a p-e system includes all energies that work. Both kinetic energies (Even an electron at rest will accelerate immediately) the combined and changing potential E and, as we have not stable orbit, we also have a changing B field (electron is a current) which leads to a change of the overall stored magnetic energy.There are papers about H2+ (2 protons one electron) which interpret the protons moving around the electron. There is also a good classical & semi classical description of of the electron field in the work of R. Mills.
Can You explain what effect You try to comunicate?
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/* that electron could be very helpful in overcoming Coulomb barrier for LENR */
And it really is, but it's not the only help which the LENR requires...
First of all, we can imagine the electrons like the lightweight but still inertial objects flying around atom nuclei. When hydrogen atom nuclei collide during hot fusion, the situation is rather simple, because the energy of collisions is much higher, than the ionization energy of single electron, so that the electrons can be peeled with impact as easily, as the flesh of cherry from its stone. The presence of electrons therefore isn't important during hot fusion at all.
At the case of cold fusion within the nickel lattice the nickel atoms contain lotta electrons with compare to hydrogen. The stripping of few first electrons is as easy, as the stripping of electron from proton in hydrogen atom, but with increasing number of electrons the ionization energy rises steadily. The last dozen of electrons require as high energy, as the nuclear transition inside of nuclei itself, which essentially means, there is not sharp energy boundary between bottom electrons and surface of atom nuclei. Their excitation and peeling proceeds with difficulty like the peeling of flesh from mango, which is nearly impossible to do perfectly.
In this case the inertia of remaining electrons must be considered, as these residual electrons represent an effective shielding of Coulomb force from atom nuclei and when the nickel atoms collide, then the residual electrons must also move aside from the place of collision - or they get involved in the nuclear reaction. This lateral motion must proceed very fast, so that even the subtle inertia of electron is important here.
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@Zephir_AWT
Thank you for your interest in my theory.You say:
QuoteIn this case the inertia of remaining electrons must be considered, as these residual electrons represent an effective shielding of Coulomb force from atom nuclei and when the nickel atoms collide, then the residual electrons must also move aside from the place of collision - or they get involved in the nuclear reaction. This lateral motion must proceed very fast, so that even the subtle inertia of electron is important here.
While it is true that the binding energy of electron orbitals grows to tens of [keV] for inner orbitals of heavy atoms, their shielding can not be very effective up to the small distances where the nuclear force starts to be felt: about 2-3 [fm] from the nucleus surface.
At this link you can find a nice explanation of the effective charge seen by orbitals.
Nickel nuclei never collide, at least in LENR experiments. For that kind of event you need a monstrous amount of energy.
The only correct approach to understand the effect of electrons is QM.I do not understand why you are commenting about the inner core electrons orbitals.
My theory suggests that some external core orbital, just below the valence electron orbital energy (or not far from that), can be captured by the nuclear attraction mechanism. The attraction between an incoming proton and an electron arises from an average zero value when the orbital frequency of the electron plus the incoming proton “speed” combine reaching the attraction condition. At that point the nuclear force mechanism provides the energy to extract the electron (near to 85 [eV]) from the orbital. After that the nuclear attraction causes the release of MANY photons around 85[eV] up to when the Hyd binding energy has been radiated completely. It is an unusually high amount of EUV. Plus there will be some soft X due to the electrons rearranging after the extraction of the external core orbital. -
/* Nickel nuclei never collide, at least in LENR experiments. For that kind of event you need a monstrous amount of energy. */
I don't think so and I even explained, where this energy comes from - it's Mossabuer/Astroblaster toy effect occurring at long lines of atom nuclei collisions
https://www.reddit.com/r/Physi…_replicating_cold/cvtkz14/* their shielding can not be very effective up to the small distances where the nuclear force starts to be felt: about 2-3 [fm] from the nucleus surface */
IMO not, just because the electrons get heavily delocalized at this confined space around atom nuclei. Just try to apply your own "theory" there...
http://www.reddit.com/r/Physic…kraine_and_russia/czg89hyAnother recent experiment demonstrating this delocalization: http://physicsworld.com/cws/ar…ate-of-the-water-molecule
/* the binding energy of electron orbitals grows to tens of [keV] for inner orbitals of heavy atoms */
Yes and the binding energy of neutron is just 2 MeV for in deuterium - these energies become comparable quantitatively.
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@Zephir_AWT
I think your "Astroblaster" could somehow be similar to what Edmund Storms proposes ... but it is not rally clear to me from your explanation. Anyway I am firmly convinced that no chemical effect can possibly win over the Coulomb repulsion, whatever the energy concentration (entropy and energy conservation), the delocalization, ...
In your comment you say Mossbauer/Astroblaster. Are you adding the Mössbauer resonance to the recipe?Why should delocalization help overcome the Coulomb barrier? You say "heavily delocalized at this confined space around atom nuclei" ... but if something is in a confined small space is not delocalized? What do you mean?
The article on PhysicsWorld you mentioned is about the study by neutron scattering of the configurations of the water molecule inside beryl. A Beautiful work, but I do not see what chemical tunnelling should suggest about nuclear fusion.
You say:
QuoteYes and the binding energy of neutron is just 2 MeV for in deuterium - these energies become comparable quantitatively.
80[keV] are not 2[MeV] and, even if they where, electrons are in orbitals.About you comment on John S. Kanzius, let me say that I am not convinced ...
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/* Are you adding the Mössbauer resonance to the recipe? */
IMO the cold fusion is the result of synergy of many effects: from purely mechanical to quantum ones. But the low-dimensional collisions are dominant cause (they're presented at most LENRs, from low energy over LeClair's to Holmlid's one), the quantum tunneling and orbital resonance are second effect and the electron shielding third one. We cannot explain the LENR once we omit two or more effects from the whole picture. The Mössbauer resonance is sorta weak Astroblaster effect, when low number of atoms are involved, but the principle remains the same (the conservation of momentum during multiparticle lattice collisions).
/* 80[keV] are not 2[MeV] */
The ionization energies of last electrons inside the large atoms get even higher, than 80 keV
http://s-media-cache-ak0.pinim…e327798a3c80f9895700d.jpg
In essence it's easier to strip the nucleons from large atom nuclei, than to remove all electrons from them, which renders the atom as an energetic continuum rather than separated layers from this perspective... Please note, this applies only to large atoms with many electrons around them, the ionization energies of lightweight atoms are completely negligible in comparison to nuclear forces - which is the reason, why they evaded the attention of hot fusion theorists completely.
/* About you comment on John S. Kanzius, let me say that I am not convinced */
And what? Most physicists aren't convinced even about cold fusion which you're trying to explain here - with such an attitude we would finish already at the very beginning of this thread...
The skepticism without arguments is just a plain negativism: i.e. nothing very new at the LENR scene... To be honest, I don't care what the people feel at all: I do care only about what they can argue.The electron shielding is actually the reason, why cold fusion runs preferably with elements, which form metal hydrides (palladium, lithium, nickel, titanium etc..) Inside these atoms the hydrogen ions (i.e. protons) get dragged beneath the outer orbitals, which gives them relatively negative charge - the hydrogen forms negative ions in these hydrides.
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@Andrea Calaon. @Jarek Would your ideas go some way to explain ultra dense rydberg matter ( holmlids H(0)) and per gaps how it transitions from normal Rydberg Matter (H(1))? On the vortex mail archive I was earlier wondering how QM electron orbitals and orbital angular momentum are reconciled with these states and if taking QM electron orbitals into account such as a change from p to s orbital could help understand some of the processes involved in H(0) production and also some of its final characteristics. I understand from some responses on vortex and other documentation that when atoms are in Rydberg state the outer valence electron orbital closely resembles a Bohr atom orbit however, but I wonder if this is only in certain orbital angular momentum (l) states, with l >0 for example. After reading this thread I wonder if masking due to orbital shape can play a part.
edit: sorry Jarek I should have addressed this question to you too. Just updated above.
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First of all, we can imagine the electrons like the lightweight but still inertial objects flying around atom nuclei. When hydrogen atom nuclei collide during hot fusion, the situation is rather simple, because the energy of collisions is much higher, than the ionization energy of single electron, so that the electrons can be peeled with impact as easily, as the flesh of cherry from its stone. The presence of electrons therefore isn't important during hot fusion at all.
Ionization doesn't mean that electrons are not there, only that they often leave potential of nuclei.
High temperature e.g. in the center of sun is a dynamical situation with lots of electrons flying there - which presence can drastically increase probability of fusing two nuclei. Their lack would mean extremely strongly charged matter.Imagine e.g. two protons traveling toward collision - they would additionally need to have huge energy not to just bounce due to Coulomb.
In contrast, if there are electrons nearby, they travel a few orders of magnitude faster and are attracted by nuclei - there is a chance that this electron will travel near one proton, then its trajectory is bent toward the second proton, then it can perform back-scattering toward the first proton ... these are rare events, but there is 10^24 order of magnitude of number of chances - to overcome Coulomb barrier without requiring an impossibly high energy.Like p ... e ... p initial static situation should fuse into deuteron due to Coulomb attraction.
At the case of cold fusion within the nickel lattice the nickel atoms contain lotta electrons with compare to hydrogen. The stripping of few first electrons is as easy, as the stripping of electron from proton in hydrogen atom, but with increasing number of electrons the ionization energy rises steadily. The last dozen of electrons require as high energy, as the nuclear transition inside of nuclei itself, which essentially means, there is not sharp energy boundary between bottom electrons and surface of atom nuclei. Their excitation and peeling proceeds with difficulty like the peeling of flesh from mango, which is nearly impossible to do perfectly.
I disagree with the need of stripping - there is needed exactly one electrons which remains between two nuclei for a long enough time - as they are light and
repulse each other, there is rather no place nor probability for more than one electron there.
See the Gryzinski's trajectories for electron - with taken magnetic dipole moment of electron into considerations ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-fall_atomic_model ) :External Content www.youtube.comContent embedded from external sources will not be displayed without your consent.Through the activation of external content, you agree that personal data may be transferred to third party platforms. We have provided more information on this in our privacy policy.
There are electrons falling to the nucleus - another nucleus approaching from the falling direction would be pulled toward fusion.
The remaining electrons should have only slightly perturbed trajectories. -
[...] I understand from some responses on vortex and other documentation that when atoms are in Rydberg state the outer valence electron orbital closely resembles a Bohr atom orbit however, but I wonder if this is only in certain orbital angular momentum (l) states, with l >0 for example.
With high values of n and l (ideally when l = n-1) a "circular Rydberg state" is formed. According to Holmlid et al., Rydberg Matter requires (at the very least, as it's not the only prerequisite) the formation of such states. For a brief overview of circular Rydberg states see this link.
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/* According to Holmlid et al., Rydberg Matter requires (at the very least, as it's not the only prerequisite) the formation of such states */
I don't understand why it should do it. In addition, the Rydberg states are traditionally connected with low energy levels, whereas just the Holmlid fusion runs at quite substantial energy density, non typical for cold fusion approach...
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@Andrea Calaon: please forgive me if this is drifting the topic away.
Quote from Zephir_AWTI don't understand why it should do it.
The main reason is likely because the lifetime of circular states compared to low-l Rydberg states is several orders of magnitude larger - allowing them enough time to condense to the so-called Rydberg Matter, which is long-lived.QuoteIn addition, the Rydberg states are traditionally connected with low energy levels, whereas just the Holmlid fusion runs at quite substantial energy density, non typical for cold fusion approach...
Keeping in mind that fusion processes have been observed in the further condensed form tentatively called "ultra-dense" state, in doi:10.1016/j.ijhydene.2015.06.116 it's been stated that the high temperature of the laser is not the reason why this appears to happen.That Holmlid usually uses a laser in his experiments doesn't mean that a laser is necessary. The process can also eventually occur spontaneously, without a laser. Other triggers may be suitable too. From doi:10.1063/1.4928109
Ólafsson also confirmed here on LENR-Forum that a laser is not strictly needed.
Quote[...]The laser can start the process but just waiting after admitting the D2 gas does the same.
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Many thanks for be link Ecco
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The main reason is likely because the lifetime of circular states compared to low-l Rydberg states is several orders of magnitude larger - allowing them enough time to condense to the so-called Rydberg Matter, which is long-lived.
While Rydberg states are well defined and established, Rydberg matter is not:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…_research_is_questionable
"It is worth pointing out that most of the atomic physics community does not share the interpretations described in this article. That community does not find the "Rydberg matter hypothesis" compelling or plausible."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…lines_and_is_unscientific
The second paragraph was written by a person involved in Rydberg matter research, presumably the same person that wrote the original Wikipedia article.I do not say that one should believe everything in Wikipedia (which is impossible since it is sometimes self-contradictory), but this comment in the Talk section and the fact that almost all references are to work by the same author, should at least make the warning bells ring.
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Crossing the Coulomb barrier means getting two nuclei to ~10^-15m distance, what requires huge energy - to get it happen spontaneously, there are needed billions of Kelvins:
If you believe that fusion is possible in ~1000K, you need a very concrete mechanism to get the two nuclei together - the only reasonable way (?) is that electron remains between them, like initially static p-e-p collapsing to deuteron.
Standard atom has radius ~10^-10m, Rydberg can have much larger - these are not scales we are interested in if we want to understand LENR !
We need electron which was originally in orbital, or was dynamically caught from neighborhood (electrons are many orders of magnitude faster then nuclei there) - and evaluate probability that it will obtain trajectory remaining between the two nuclei - including the most critical <10^-14m phase.
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@StephenC,
Thank you for you VERY INTERESTING questions.
The experimental findings of Holmlid are quite solid and well documented. His interpretation has become a bit self-referential since no one seems to share it.
The neutral particle he sees and he is trying to make a sense of has strong analogies with my Hyd. In the article "Spontaneous ejection of high-energy particles from ultra-dense deuterium D(0)" published in 2015 (but also in other earlier articles), Holmlid suggests, in accordance with the theory of J. E. Hirsch that:- there is a narrow bound state between a hydrogen nucleus and an electron,
- the state has no orbital angular momentum,
- the state is somehow "planar",
- the state has a unitary spin.
- the radius of the electron in it is 193[fm],
- the speed of the charge is the speed of light.
WELL, IT IS PRECISELY THE DESCRIPTION OF MY HYD.
The theory of Holmlid proposes a state without orbital angular momentum and with the size of the Zitterbewegung; is this an orbital, or is more of a new particle?
When I first developed my theory I was not aware of the theory of J. E. Hirsch.
Holmlid writes: “... the electrons which give the ultra-dense matter structure have no orbital motion, but only a spin motion. This electron spin motion may be interpreted as a motion of the charge with orbit radius rq=ħ/2mec=0.192 pm and with the velocity of light c (‘zitterbewegung’) [33]. This spin motion is centred on the D atoms and may give a planar structure for the DeD pairs as in the case of the planar clusters for ordinary Rydberg matter.”
The formula of the electron radius is the one I use and Hirsch uses references to works of D. Hestenes about the Zitterbewegung I use as well.
I am not an expert in Rydberg Matter (RM), but I doubt that the formation of H(0)/Hyd needs first the formation of ordinary RM. The simplest reason is that CF happens in very different systems and RM is not that omnipresent … In addition to that the size of ordinary RM is huge in comparison to a H(0)/Hyd, and the energy difference is … immense. What could provide all that binding energy? You need a mechanism, or something ...
While QM predicts (common) Rydberg matter, the condensed Rydberg matter Holmlid and Hirsch suggest is only a guess, and it is not based on rigorous QM. My theory is not formulated in the rigorous framework of QM either, but at least provides a basic explanation for why compact neutral particles (not neutrons) can form.
In common RM it is like you say, the electrons behave pretty much as planets around a star and there are no states with zero angular momentum.
I do not see what common RM shares with H(0)/Hyd. Hirsch suggests a path between the two, but I think the common thread is too thin.
My theory suggests that Holmlid is producing Hyd thanks to the presence of K in a Fischer–Tropsch catalyst (the styrene catalyst Shell S-105 he uses). The hydrogen molecule is broken in two pieces by the catalyst and one of the two protons, probably helped by the impinging laser light, is accelerated and captures an electron from the K to form a Hydronius. Then probably the Hyd gather in clusters possibly thanks to the magnetic attraction that stationary protons in neighbouring Hyd should feel.
I agree with Hirsch that probably superconductivity (at least that at “high temperatures”) originates from the same mechanism of cold fusion, but I don't think he is pointing at the right one.
