Patent office dispute between Piantelli and Rossi?

  • This may be old news to everyone, but apparently there is a patent opposition proceeding involving an LENR patent granted to Piantelli in Europe.


    It appears, if I am reading it correctly, that Leonardo Corporation has filed an administrative challenge at the European Patent Office to Piantelli's patent grant, arguing that the claims are not clear/specific enough and lack an inventive step. Some of the details appear to be in the two April 15, 2013 documents here.


    https://register.epo.org/appli...


    There is another opposition filed by another party that I do not recognize (EFA SRL), filed on October 15, 2013.

  • You are right, it is not the same patent application... EP09806118 is the one which rossi is opposing.
    https://register.epo.org/application?number=EP09806118&lng=en&tab=event


    the one with "intent to grant" is more recent : EP2702593
    https://register.epo.org/application?number=EP12728780&lng=en&tab=event

  • Yeah. We'll see. As much as I'd like to see the field enjoy the legitimacy that the patent system can grant, a patent is required to have a detailed enough disclosure to permit others to reliably recreate the invention. And we've hardly seen a spate of reliably reproducible excess heat experiments from this patent.

  • the patent EP2702593, which was under "intent to grant" state, recently suffered an opposition on May 25 2016 by Leonardo Corporation.


    I imagine Piantelli will subsidize my rope.



    Rossi is a hard man to figure out. Everything blowing up in his face, and he keeps right on going without missing a beat. Most would be planning their escape about right now, but not this guy. Really is baffling.

  • the patent EP2702593, which was under "intent to grant" state, recently suffered an opposition on May 25 2016 by Leonardo Corporation.


    I imagine Piantelli will subsidize my rope.



    Piantelli is the real discoverer of the NiH effect and in the end of the dispute he will be Rossi's rope.


    I refer to my following comments, which contain the facts behind this statement.



    Cutting Through the Fog Surrounding the Rossi/IH Dispute (Josh G)


    To discuss the relevance of any 'verifiable evidence' that may be available which may be relevant to the Rossi et al v. Darden et al case.

  • Shane,


    may be beceause -
    - Rossi knows he is right and will win. No reason to run.
    - Rossi lives in a complete illusion where he "knows" he is right and will win. Again no reason to run.


    if he is a con artist he should have run when 10 MUSD where collected. At the age of 65, 10MUSD is enough to have a nice remaining life some hidden place.

  • And Piantelli have patented a range of various ways of stimualting LENR reactions.


    Rossi is probably violating Piantelli stimulation patents, and which Rossi keeps in secret. And which is why IH is not able to copy the E-cat COP.


    the Lugano report mentioned feeding the reactor with specific current pulses, but Rossi have never answerred any questions on the issue.


    And Brullioun mentions the "Q pulses", which is not explained....

  • Rossi is a greedy blood sucking leech on the future of LENR research. He lost his first challenge against a Piantelli patent and the fact that he has returned to challenge again is a sign of his mental condition. Piantelli is a true pioneer in NiH research and should not have to waste time and resources fighting off a con artist.


    All Rossi really managed to do in the first challenge was create additional prior art against himself. His disciples will not understand what that means because they are also clueless when it comes to IP.


    I stand with Piantelli.

  • Rossi is a hard man to figure out. Everything blowing up in his face, and he keeps right on going without missing a beat. Most would be planning their escape about right now, but not this guy. Really is baffling.


    What Rossi is very concerned about is competition from someone who knows LENR as well or better than he does. He studies his commission and replicates their experiments to see exactly what Rossi competition can really do. Remember, knowledge is power and Rossi wants to have all the power. Rossi does not fear IH because he knows that they are inept. But Rossi is concerned about Brillouin especially if Brillouin acquires all or parts of his IP.

  • Axil - for such a smart future thinking guy, you sure do post up some boneheaded statements.
    Rossi has always figuratively been kill or be killed in the way that he looks at other LENR researchers. He thinks that he is the only way forward for LENR and he is a deluded fake. If Rossi does ever show up with a working technology then he has no idea where his competition is going to come from.


    Tora Tora Tora.

  • Here's some of the timeline- cut and pasted from an old 'Elforsk' report hosted on 'Nyteknik'.


    Together with Sergio Focardi and Roberto Habel, Francesco Piantelli sought a
    patent for Energy generation and generator by means of an harmonic
    stimulated fusion, with publication number PCT/IT95/00008, dated 3rd August.
    His next patent application, Method for producing energy and apparatus
    therefore, publication number WO2010/058288, dated 27th May 2010, was
    granted on 16th January 2013 as EP 2 368 252 B1. His third patent
    application was entitled Method and apparatus for generating energy by
    nuclear reactions of hydrogen adsorbed by orbital capture on a
    nanocrystalline structure of a metal, WO/2013/0082/19, of 17th January 2013,
    complemented on 7th March 2013. The Method for producing energy and
    apparatus therefore patent is the only on for nickel/hydrogen LENR that is
    valid throughout Europe.
    Franscesco Celani has a European patent application for nanostructured
    nickel: Nanostructured thin layers having high catalytic activity on surfaces of
    nickel and its alloys and a process for obtaining them, WO2011/016014A2, 7th
    February 2012.
    Andrea Rossi, of the Leonardo Corporation, has had his application for a
    European patent for his E-Cat rejected, but has an American application for it
    under no. US2011/005506 A1, publication date 13th January 2011. However,
    he does have an Italian patent, Processo ed apparecchiatura per ottenere
    reazioni esotermiche, in particolare da nickel ed idrogeno, no.
    MI2008A000629, granted on 6th April 2011 and valid until 9th April 2028.
    Etiam OY has a patent application for Thermal-energy producing system and
    method, WO2013076378 A2, published on 30th May 2013.
    LENR Cars Sàrl has a patent application for Low Energy Nuclear
    Thermoelectric System, US 2013/0263597 A1, published on 10th October
    2013

  • Friends of the late Professor Focardi dispute the official Piantelli timeline and resent Piantelli's 'diminishment' of Focardi's input to the work. As a matter (of very small interest) they also deny that Rossi ever approached Piantelli for support but came straight to Bologna to see Focardi. But, since he is no longer with us, Focardi cannot defend himself or confirm/deny the truth about Rossi's first contacts.

  • Axil - for such a smart future thinking guy, you sure do post up some boneheaded statements.
    Rossi has always figuratively been kill or be killed in the way that he looks at other LENR researchers. He thinks that he is the only way forward for LENR and he is a deluded fake. If Rossi does ever show up with a working technology then he has no idea where his competition is going to come from.


    Tora Tora Tora.



    Rossi will be bested by someone who can produce electric power directly from a solid state reactor(no steam) the size of a bread box.

  • I'm with AxilAxil in this matter. Rossi has promised multiple-times, he will not get engaged in patent wars, as he plans to eliminate competition with cheap plentiful production from robotized plants. No robotized plants ever existed and Rossi just wants to get rid of competition in the same way like every patent troll (he has in his own words over 140 patent applications submitted). Which I consider problematic just at the case of Piantelli, as I have multiple reasons to believe, he is actual founder of nickel fusion technology, not Andrea Rossi.


    /* am pretty sure Mills discovered it before Piantelli. He announced first. It is possible Piantelli did not know about Mills.*/


    Do you mean Randell L. Mills? Mills still believes, he has hydrino technology in hands and he always opposed the cold fusion based interpretation.


    /* The first person to suggest trying nickel was Martin Fleischmann. */


    Fleischmann also didn't come first with cold fusion, John Tandberg did.

  • Rossi is a greedy blood sucking leech on the future of LENR research. He lost his first challenge against a Piantelli patent and the fact that he has returned to challenge again is a sign of his mental condition. Piantelli is a true pioneer in NiH research and should not have to waste time and resources fighting off a con artist.


    All Rossi really managed to do in the first challenge was create additional prior art against himself. His disciples will not understand what that means because they are also clueless when it comes to IP.


    I stand with Piantelli.


    IH backed the wrong horse.


    Check our this old post by Axil on vortex.


    The public discussion of a major aspect of Rossi's IP makes that aspect prior art. In that reguard, the discussion of Lithium as Rossi's secret sauce is discussed publicly back in 2011 before any patent revealed that feature in a patent.


    [Vo]:Axil's alternative to Kim


    Axil Axil [email protected] via eskimo.com
    7/10/11


    to vortex-l
    As an alternative to professor Kim's offering, I humbly offer this alternative explanation to the origin and possible functionality characterized by the atomic coherence that is required if radiation from the nuclear reactions that makeup the Rossi process are to be suppressed.
     
     
    First off, the formation of Rydberg matter begins with the production of highly excited alkaline atoms (HEAA) when hydrogen, lithium and/or potassium are heated to high temperatures and pressures enclosed within a gaseous envelope composed primarily of hydrogen gas. Yes, lithium or potassium is the most probable secret element additives that catalyze the formation of Rydberg matter.
     
     
    In all methods currently known to successfully form Rydberg matter; an adjacent surface removes the excess energy released by the condensation of these HEAA. The most efficient process to form this condensate of Rydberg matter clusters so far has been desorption (evaporation) from a solid surface as they seek to minimize their energy, which means that the excess bond energy is deposited in the surface.
     
     
    In more detail, like bosons that can be condensed to form Bose-Einstein condensates, Rydberg matter can be condensed, but not in the same way as bosons. The reason for this is that Rydberg matter behaves like a gas where it cannot be condensed without removing the condensation energy. If this heat removal is not done, ionization of the component atoms occurs. All solutions to this problem so far involve using an adjacent surface in some way, the best being evaporating the atoms of which the Rydberg matter is to be formed from and leaving the condensation energy on the surface.
     
     
    However in the Rossi reactor, the absorption of energy from HEAA is done onto the cold walls of the reaction vessel. This formation of Rydberg condensate matter is a change of state process that will cause Rydberg matter to first form and then to hover very near to the surface of the reaction vessel walls through an electrostatic attraction at the point on the electrostatically grounded reaction vessel wall where it was formed. This condensate then acts to catalyze the Rossi process.
     
     
    Highly excited atoms of lithium or potassium form a condensation template or seed that excited hydrogen atoms use to condense around at the surface of the reaction vessel. Oftentimes, these lithium or potassium atoms might combine and intermix with hydrogen to form a multi- alkaline -element complex variety of Rydberg matter condensate.
     
     
    In the final step of the Rossi process, the coherent wave forms of these many Rydberg atoms that comprise the Rydberg condensate will work in concert through a quantum mechanical summation process to form a combined, entangled and coherent de-Broglie wave form whose wavelengths become sufficiently large to overlap with those of the neighboring nickel quantum wave forms composing the rugged nano-powder coated surface walls of the reaction vessel. The condensate then participates in nuclear fusion reactions at or very near the surface of the reaction vessel of the Rossi reactor. Because of its very large coherent de-Broglie wave form, the effective quantum mechanical range at which this condensate operates may be anywhere up to a few hundred nano-meters centered upon the location of its formation.

  • Do you mean Randell L. Mills? Mills still believes, he has hydrino technology in hands and he always opposed the cold fusion based interpretation.


    I do not know about his interpretation, but I am pretty sure he saw a cold fusion effect with nickel in light water, which was later confirmed by Thermacore. I heard about it from them.


    Fleischmann also didn't come first with cold fusion, John Tandberg did.


    I have not heard of Tandberg. The first people who reported cold fusion were Paneth and Peters in the 1920s, according to Fleischmann. They later retracted, but he thought they may have seen a real effect. In the 1980s Mizuno and others saw the effect, but they were not able to make it reproducible at all. They agree that Fleischmann and Pons were the first to do robust experiments with a definite result.

  • /* he first people who reported cold fusion were Paneth and Peters in the 1920s, according to Fleischmann */


    It's rather difficult to believe, Fleischman knew about Paneth and Peters, but not about John Tandberg, who patented the same device, like the Fleischmann did some fifty years later.

  • Zephir_AWT wrote:
    Fleischmann also didn't come first with cold fusion, John Tandberg did.


    I have not heard of Tandberg. The first people who reported cold fusion were Paneth and Peters in the 1920s, according to Fleischmann. They later retracted, but he thought they may have seen a real effect. In the 1980s Mizuno and others saw the effect, but they were not able to make it reproducible at all. They agree that Fleischmann and Pons were the first to do robust experiments with a definite result.

    I'm surprised, Jed. Sometimes Wikipedia is useful, this was certainly easy to find in the cold fusion article:

    Quote

    In 1927, Swedish scientist John Tandberg reported that he had fused hydrogen into helium in an electrolytic cell with palladium electrodes.[17] On the basis of his work, he applied for a Swedish patent for "a method to produce helium and useful reaction energy".[17] Due to Paneth and Peters's retraction and his inability to explain the physical process, his patent application was denied.[17][20] After deuterium was discovered in 1932, Tandberg continued his experiments with heavy water.[17] The final experiments made by Tandberg with heavy water were similar to the original experiment by Fleischmann and Pons.[21] Fleischmann and Pons were not aware of Tandberg's work.[22][text 1][text 2]

    From the 1989 DoE report:

    Quote

    In 1927, Swedish scientist J. Tandberg claimed that he had fused hydrogen into helium in an electrolytic cell with palladium electrodes. On the basis of his work he applied for a Swedish patent for "a method to produce helium and useful reaction energy". After deuterium was discovered in 1932, Tandberg continued his experiments with D2O. Due to Paneth and Peters' retraction, Tandberg's patent application was denied eventually [PAN].


    What I notice about this is that Tandberg, if this is correct, first claimed helium production from hydrogen. WTF? Then he used deuterium. However, cold fusion only makes a little helium. If he was making helium, he must have set up a very strong reaction. So, it is possible that Tandberg saw cold fusion, but it is also possible that he didn't.


    Stating confidently that he did ... well, I suppose some people have an inside track on reality. Like Axil, as an example. Read Axil's stuff, he knows what nobody else on the planet knows. It's a wonder he doesn't explode from it. Why is such a genius hiding his identity? I don't know, but since he is so smart, he must have a good reason or he'd be crazy.


    Sorry, this isn't really about Axil, who is not responsible for what Zephyr AWT wrote, but I just read a series of posts by Axil here, and then saw the assertion of "knowledge" from Zephyr.


    (By the way, Axil is indeed smart, he can create word salad like I've never seen before, and he has been doing it for years.)