Patent office dispute between Piantelli and Rossi?

    • Official Post

    Friends of the late Professor Focardi dispute the official Piantelli timeline and resent Piantelli's 'diminishment' of Focardi's input to the work. As a matter (of very small interest) they also deny that Rossi ever approached Piantelli for support but came straight to Bologna to see Focardi. But, since he is no longer with us, Focardi cannot defend himself or confirm/deny the truth about Rossi's first contacts.

    Quote from Dewey Weaver

    Axil - for such a smart future thinking guy, you sure do post up some boneheaded statements.
    Rossi has always figuratively been kill or be killed in the way that he looks at other LENR researchers. He thinks that he is the only way forward for LENR and he is a deluded fake. If Rossi does ever show up with a working technology then he has no idea where his competition is going to come from.


    Tora Tora Tora.



    Rossi will be bested by someone who can produce electric power directly from a solid state reactor(no steam) the size of a bread box.

    I'm with AxilAxil in this matter. Rossi has promised multiple-times, he will not get engaged in patent wars, as he plans to eliminate competition with cheap plentiful production from robotized plants. No robotized plants ever existed and Rossi just wants to get rid of competition in the same way like every patent troll (he has in his own words over 140 patent applications submitted). Which I consider problematic just at the case of Piantelli, as I have multiple reasons to believe, he is actual founder of nickel fusion technology, not Andrea Rossi.


    /* am pretty sure Mills discovered it before Piantelli. He announced first. It is possible Piantelli did not know about Mills.*/


    Do you mean Randell L. Mills? Mills still believes, he has hydrino technology in hands and he always opposed the cold fusion based interpretation.


    /* The first person to suggest trying nickel was Martin Fleischmann. */


    Fleischmann also didn't come first with cold fusion, John Tandberg did.

    Quote from Dewey Weaver

    Rossi is a greedy blood sucking leech on the future of LENR research. He lost his first challenge against a Piantelli patent and the fact that he has returned to challenge again is a sign of his mental condition. Piantelli is a true pioneer in NiH research and should not have to waste time and resources fighting off a con artist.


    All Rossi really managed to do in the first challenge was create additional prior art against himself. His disciples will not understand what that means because they are also clueless when it comes to IP.


    I stand with Piantelli.


    IH backed the wrong horse.


    Check our this old post by Axil on vortex.


    The public discussion of a major aspect of Rossi's IP makes that aspect prior art. In that reguard, the discussion of Lithium as Rossi's secret sauce is discussed publicly back in 2011 before any patent revealed that feature in a patent.


    [Vo]:Axil's alternative to Kim


    Axil Axil [email protected] via eskimo.com
    7/10/11


    to vortex-l
    As an alternative to professor Kim's offering, I humbly offer this alternative explanation to the origin and possible functionality characterized by the atomic coherence that is required if radiation from the nuclear reactions that makeup the Rossi process are to be suppressed.


    First off, the formation of Rydberg matter begins with the production of highly excited alkaline atoms (HEAA) when hydrogen, lithium and/or potassium are heated to high temperatures and pressures enclosed within a gaseous envelope composed primarily of hydrogen gas. Yes, lithium or potassium is the most probable secret element additives that catalyze the formation of Rydberg matter.


    In all methods currently known to successfully form Rydberg matter; an adjacent surface removes the excess energy released by the condensation of these HEAA. The most efficient process to form this condensate of Rydberg matter clusters so far has been desorption (evaporation) from a solid surface as they seek to minimize their energy, which means that the excess bond energy is deposited in the surface.


    In more detail, like bosons that can be condensed to form Bose-Einstein condensates, Rydberg matter can be condensed, but not in the same way as bosons. The reason for this is that Rydberg matter behaves like a gas where it cannot be condensed without removing the condensation energy. If this heat removal is not done, ionization of the component atoms occurs. All solutions to this problem so far involve using an adjacent surface in some way, the best being evaporating the atoms of which the Rydberg matter is to be formed from and leaving the condensation energy on the surface.


    However in the Rossi reactor, the absorption of energy from HEAA is done onto the cold walls of the reaction vessel. This formation of Rydberg condensate matter is a change of state process that will cause Rydberg matter to first form and then to hover very near to the surface of the reaction vessel walls through an electrostatic attraction at the point on the electrostatically grounded reaction vessel wall where it was formed. This condensate then acts to catalyze the Rossi process.


    Highly excited atoms of lithium or potassium form a condensation template or seed that excited hydrogen atoms use to condense around at the surface of the reaction vessel. Oftentimes, these lithium or potassium atoms might combine and intermix with hydrogen to form a multi- alkaline -element complex variety of Rydberg matter condensate.

    In the final step of the Rossi process, the coherent wave forms of these many Rydberg atoms that comprise the Rydberg condensate will work in concert through a quantum mechanical summation process to form a combined, entangled and coherent de-Broglie wave form whose wavelengths become sufficiently large to overlap with those of the neighboring nickel quantum wave forms composing the rugged nano-powder coated surface walls of the reaction vessel. The condensate then participates in nuclear fusion reactions at or very near the surface of the reaction vessel of the Rossi reactor. Because of its very large coherent de-Broglie wave form, the effective quantum mechanical range at which this condensate operates may be anywhere up to a few hundred nano-meters centered upon the location of its formation.

    Quote from Zephir_AWT

    Do you mean Randell L. Mills? Mills still believes, he has hydrino technology in hands and he always opposed the cold fusion based interpretation.


    I do not know about his interpretation, but I am pretty sure he saw a cold fusion effect with nickel in light water, which was later confirmed by Thermacore. I heard about it from them.


    Quote from Zephir_AWT

    Fleischmann also didn't come first with cold fusion, John Tandberg did.


    I have not heard of Tandberg. The first people who reported cold fusion were Paneth and Peters in the 1920s, according to Fleischmann. They later retracted, but he thought they may have seen a real effect. In the 1980s Mizuno and others saw the effect, but they were not able to make it reproducible at all. They agree that Fleischmann and Pons were the first to do robust experiments with a definite result.

    /* he first people who reported cold fusion were Paneth and Peters in the 1920s, according to Fleischmann */


    It's rather difficult to believe, Fleischman knew about Paneth and Peters, but not about John Tandberg, who patented the same device, like the Fleischmann did some fifty years later.

    Quote from JedRothwell

    Zephir_AWT wrote:
    Fleischmann also didn't come first with cold fusion, John Tandberg did.


    I have not heard of Tandberg. The first people who reported cold fusion were Paneth and Peters in the 1920s, according to Fleischmann. They later retracted, but he thought they may have seen a real effect. In the 1980s Mizuno and others saw the effect, but they were not able to make it reproducible at all. They agree that Fleischmann and Pons were the first to do robust experiments with a definite result.

    I'm surprised, Jed. Sometimes Wikipedia is useful, this was certainly easy to find in the cold fusion article:

    Quote

    In 1927, Swedish scientist John Tandberg reported that he had fused hydrogen into helium in an electrolytic cell with palladium electrodes.[17] On the basis of his work, he applied for a Swedish patent for "a method to produce helium and useful reaction energy".[17] Due to Paneth and Peters's retraction and his inability to explain the physical process, his patent application was denied.[17][20] After deuterium was discovered in 1932, Tandberg continued his experiments with heavy water.[17] The final experiments made by Tandberg with heavy water were similar to the original experiment by Fleischmann and Pons.[21] Fleischmann and Pons were not aware of Tandberg's work.[22][text 1][text 2]

    From the 1989 DoE report:

    Quote

    In 1927, Swedish scientist J. Tandberg claimed that he had fused hydrogen into helium in an electrolytic cell with palladium electrodes. On the basis of his work he applied for a Swedish patent for "a method to produce helium and useful reaction energy". After deuterium was discovered in 1932, Tandberg continued his experiments with D2O. Due to Paneth and Peters' retraction, Tandberg's patent application was denied eventually [PAN].


    What I notice about this is that Tandberg, if this is correct, first claimed helium production from hydrogen. WTF? Then he used deuterium. However, cold fusion only makes a little helium. If he was making helium, he must have set up a very strong reaction. So, it is possible that Tandberg saw cold fusion, but it is also possible that he didn't.


    Stating confidently that he did ... well, I suppose some people have an inside track on reality. Like Axil, as an example. Read Axil's stuff, he knows what nobody else on the planet knows. It's a wonder he doesn't explode from it. Why is such a genius hiding his identity? I don't know, but since he is so smart, he must have a good reason or he'd be crazy.


    Sorry, this isn't really about Axil, who is not responsible for what Zephyr AWT wrote, but I just read a series of posts by Axil here, and then saw the assertion of "knowledge" from Zephyr.


    (By the way, Axil is indeed smart, he can create word salad like I've never seen before, and he has been doing it for years.)

    Lomax, I have stopped reading your verbosity some time back because of its nebulous, diffuse and time consuming nature. I pity the moderators who must plow through it all. Until you improve your writing style, to aid the readers of this blog, you might add a single paragraph abstract.


    But it is never too late to improve. Get yourself a good book on concise writing practices. You would be a more effective communicator if your goal was brevity and conciseness and it would have the added advantage of being a relief to the moderators all around the internet.

    Quote from JedRothwell

    Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:
    I'm surprised, Jed. Sometimes Wikipedia is useful,


    The trouble is, you can never tell when it will be useful and when it will mislead you.

    I was familiar with the material and then checked the reference to the ERAB Panel. Absolutely, Jed, I know the shortcomings of Wikipedia,which are many. I still use it constantly. Sometimes I also look at the Talk page and page history, to see if there is factional conflict, which is often what makes Wikipedia articles unreliable. Look at the cold fusion talk page, you can see a history of conflict, bans, lots of signs of Bad Stuff going on.

    Quote from Paradigmnoia

    My source was MFMP, having been told by Piantelli.
    I'm not clear on how the hydrogen was used in this case it seems, after re-reading the article.


    I'm guessing that the nickel sample was previously exposed to hydrogen. Subsequent low temperature exposure to liquid helium would then cause the hydrogen to desorb in atomic form from the sample, which is where something unexpected could happen.


    In later patents by Piantelli et al. like for example EP2754156B1 it's hinted that as long as hydrogen atoms are dissociated and ionized in the process, a transition metal lattice is not strictly required to observe the effect, which is mostly about creating a special reactive form of hydrogen. Piantelli calls it "H-", but it might be something different than the name suggests.

    /* Axil is indeed smart, he can create word salad like I've never seen before, and he has been doing it for years */


    IMO he spreads word salat often just because he is not so smart, he is merely the blind fact and links collector - but sometimes he may get useful just with it. The cold fusion topic is holistic in its present stage of development, every detail could have its meaning later. So it doesn't imply, everything what Axil says is BS, he just needs some filtering.


    /* Fleischmann and Pons were not aware of Tandberg's work */


    I'd consider politely it's true but I don't believe it. In particular Dr. Jones from Utah university who worked with Pons originally had very good reviews and complete background information about history of cold fusion and transmutations. Their research was quite directed towards palladium from its very beginning.

    /* a transition metal lattice is not strictly required to observe the effect */


    I'd also agree with it, as the cold fusion can run at the surface of pure molten lithium with deuterons accelerated with 4 kV only. No other metal is required for it (lithium is forming hydride on its own). The other question is, how to accelerate the hydride anions into collisions without synergy of some lattice, which would dissolve them and keep them at sufficiently high density within solid phase.


    I identified lithium as Rossi's secret sauce back in 2011 together with the role that Rydberg matter plays in the LENR reaction and predicted muon generation in the LENR reaction a year before Holmlid discovered them in his experiments. As the years roll on, you will find that my word salad begins to make sense. Communication is a two way street, a duplex operation, sometimes the problem of comprehension is with the receiver and not the sender.

    /* with the role that Rydberg matter plays in the LENR reaction */


    What the Rydberg matter is supposed to mean? The Rydberg atoms contain electrons in semiclassical i.e. very large circular orbits with very high Rydberg numbers. Such an atoms have no meaning in cold fusion.

    /* Perhaps reactions occur in which multiple electrons simultaneously transfer energy to one proton */


    This is the key sentence here. In which arrangement most of particles can transfer their energy into a single one?


    Otherwise it's good to realize, that despite its nearly mythological significance for cold fusion, this fundamental experiment was never attempted to replicate in peer-reviewed journal and it quickly became a taboo for mainstream physics.

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