Possibility of investment fraud

1st Official Post
    • Official Post

    I still think that the e-cat is a source of energy.


    But let us assume for a moment that it is an investment fraud and think about the consequences of this assumption together with all that Rossi has shown to us.


    Am I then right to think that the E-cat is actually one of the biggest Investment frauds of the last years?


    What could be Rossis cheating strategy? Right now people can send "unbinding inquiries". And what would be the purpose of the "1 year E-cat test" then? Maybe just getting enough time?


    I think that if it is an investment fraud then Rossi and [lexicon]Industrial Heat[/lexicon] are working together to cheat the people. If it is, I think that the probability that Rossi is cheating [lexicon]Industrial Heat[/lexicon] is very low. Since they gave him 11 million USD he could have popped off after that.


    So probably Rossi and [lexicon]Industrial heat[/lexicon] are working together to cheat the people if it is a fraud.


    Furthermore, they spend money to bribe Essen, Hoistad and Parkhomov (who was probably the cheapest to bribe). Or just promised them to give them a share of the stolen money.


    Then Rossi was definitely anxious to build a lot of dummy devices and make photographs for many years and paying someone to write on his blog.

    • Official Post

    You are absolutely right!
    It is easy to say that Rossi is a fraudster. But what are his motives in this case ?(


    He hasn't sold any E-Cats yet, and he seems still to be in a very good relationship with his single 11 million $ investor Cherokee Investments!
    Two years after this purchase of Cherokee, one could expect that Cherokee officially admits that they fall a victim to Rossi or something else. But nothing.
    Even the opposite is happening: Tom Darden was at ICCF and gave some interviews about [lexicon]IH[/lexicon] and Rossi's technology afterwards.


    If Rossi is really a fraudster, how is he doing this??
    How is he cheating all this people which work with him day by day??
    Is he David Copperfield's brother or what?? :pillepalle:

    Let me understand...


    Do you really believe that if Rossi invented a miraculous machine that solves all energy problems, giving to US the ability to beat any competition from any foreign powers (Russia, China, ...) or Arab oil dependences, the Federal Government would let this happen in ridicolous way like to which we are witnessing and allowing also the possibility that any "garage replicators" like Parkhomov or any Chinese guys could copy his precious secret and invention?


    It should be the bigger farce never seen until now and just Rossi's fans can believer to this.

    • Official Post

    The hypothesis of fraud is always something to check in any business.


    Here we have a tycoon, tom darden who already manage a big fund of 2bn$ in green tech.


    why would he orghanize something so expensive, so incredible, without not having made big money ...
    while he could simply sell green tech that are fashion and don't work?
    too much competition on the market ? why not...
    but a scam of that size, well organized is quick to make money and run.



    what we have observed , and we observe, is rather some deluded small team who try to sell their theories, just to be able to work more , sure to be right one day or another... this was the initial fear of many on Rossi.


    now we are too far from that scheme.


    Too many people involved, too much freedom in the tests, too much money from serious people pockets, too many careers to be ruined, in finance and science. There is no motive.



    anyway there can be much more classic business problems, from being a shark in finance, to hiding industrial problem to the public.



    I have much better candidate for scam or delusion, in finance, in green business and even in LENR.

    I don't buy the investment fraud scenario. I also don't buy 95% of what Rossi says. That does not mean I think he is running a scam. The way these small start ups make money is to sell their whole operation to a big fish. Big companies are usually public and this will force a level of quality assurance in such a sale. This technology is worth hundreds of billions if not trillions of dollars. Any CEO who squanders huge wads of cash on something that is not thoroughly vested and vetted could face serious jail time. In this paradigm the small company never admits that they are going to sell out to big company. They have a "party line" that states that they will manufacture the devices themselves. They might know perfectly well and good that is hogwash. They nevertheless proclaim that is their desire and plans. Dummies like Frank buy this party line and eat it up. So if this is a business then that would be their angle. I said if it is a business. If it is a fraud then their motive would be to political. Transparency International rates the Scandinavian countries to be the least corrupt. What better than to hire a group from that part of the world to test and verify the device. Only problem is I would trust the Nigerians more than the Swedes. Every time I go to Home Depot I pass Securitas guards. Top secret US installations are guarded by Swedish security firms like Pinkerton and such. There is a black side to that country that most people don't know about. I don't trust them as far as I can shake a stick. They also have a bug about the arctic resources competition with Russia. Russia's economy is very dependent on fossil fuels. Some clown coming out and saying they have a device that can cripple Russia's economy is a powerful motive for fraud. Every time I fill my tank up with $3 gas I wonder why it isn't $5 any more and if that has any relation to what is going on with LENR?

    • Official Post

    LENR values billions, but a company , like the wright brother, may have difficulties first to convince because of the incredible (but classic) grouthink, but also because it will immediately suffer from competition.


    Being first in disruptive innovation does not necessarily mean you win all the market. most of the time it mean you die while trying to convince people whom you endanger the core business, then a competitor take your corpse and make a billion.


    Innovation in the real world is not as simple as in hollywood.

    • Official Post
    Quote from Henry

    Let me understand...


    Do you really believe that if Rossi invented a miraculous machine that solves all energy problems, giving to US the ability to beat any competition from any foreign powers (Russia, China, ...) or Arab oil dependences, the Federal Government would let this happen in ridicolous way like to which we are witnessing and allowing also the possibility that any "garage replicators" like Parkhomov or any Chinese guys could copy his precious secret and invention?


    It should be the bigger farce never seen until now and just Rossi's fans can believer to this.


    You are right in one point but wrong in another.


    I agree that IF the ecat is real, and now let us assume for a second IT IS .


    US military would have adopted it a long time ago.


    But ask yourself: What would you do if you were the US government and you would suddenly find out about a guy like Rossi who has discovered such an effect and invented such a device? Only if the public would be completely unaware of him , if there would be no websites and no community watching him. THEN and only then I would delete all the websites, force him to stop working on it by his own, acquire his work , maybe pay him some money (or even not at all?) .


    But the fact is: There is awareness in the public. There is a community, there is a forum like this one, there is a website.


    IF i would be the us government I would not delete the website. I would use the fact that LENR is considered as fringe science by the scientific community and let a website online. I would let Rossi make some "1 year tests" telling all the people who are watching the development that "further tests are needed". in order to get time for the secret development.


    I think if the ecat is real: Government is already controlling and developing ecat. They want to develop and use it first to keep a dominant position in the world. they would want to keep the website online so that no attention is raised in the community who has followed the ecat development since years. If they deleted it all the more attention would be raised. They would force Rossi to stop working on it by his own. They would want scientists to continue to think and say that LENR is Fringe science.

    • Official Post


    I am also agonizing over this. I think if it is fraud, then Rossi and [lexicon]IH[/lexicon] are working together. If it is a fraud then they have been preparing this for years. (Which is possible, many fraudsters plan for years or even decades).


    I think there is one possibilty that we can definitely exclude: Rossi and [lexicon]IH[/lexicon] are not deceiving themselves. I don't think they have worked on the Ni-LiAlH4 system for so long and think it is producing excess energy although it actually does not.


    My convincement is: Ecat is real, but the "1 year test" is a trick. Rossi is not in control of the ecat anymore and has not been since a long time already. US government wants to raise as little attention about the ecat as possible and the right way to do this is to keep www.ecat.com online and not delete it and also to let the scientific community continue to think and say that LENR is a fringe science and not real.


    In this way Henry is right. US is trying to use LENR to solidify it's position as the world Hegemony against China and Russia.


    But well, we will see. Once the "ever so important" 1 year trial is over what will happen.


    I predict: There will be another delay. A test or a report or whatsoever. So that USA have more time to introduce the ecat to their military infrastructure.

    • Official Post

    This delay theory, to give military time to introduce and understand this technology seems reasonable.
    But it sounds a little bit too conspiratorial for me.


    In this case we would have seen the US slowly offloading their oil shares. But this didn't happen yet?


    I absolutely understand the incomprehension of Rossi's behaviour by @Henry and others.
    All sides of this story, however you try to interpret them, are very odd if you think through it with common sense... ?( :/

    Quote from Majorana


    But the fact is: There is awareness in the public. There is a community, there is a forum like this one, there is a website.


    IF i would be the us government I would not delete the website. I would use the fact that LENR is considered as fringe science by the scientific community and let a website online. I would let Rossi make some "1 year tests" telling all the people who are watching the development that "further tests are needed". in order to get time for the secret development.


    I think if the ecat is real: Government is already controlling and developing ecat. They want to develop and use it first to keep a dominant position in the world. they would want to keep the website online so that no attention is raised in the community who has followed the ecat development since years.


    Let me talk about this hypotesis starting from your second comment:


    Quote

    Ecat is real, but the "1 year test" is a trick. Rossi is not in control of the ecat anymore and has not been since a long time already. US government wants to raise as little attention about the ecat as possible and the right way to do this is to keep ecat.com online and not delete it and also to let the scientific community continue to think and say that LENR is a fringe science and not real.


    There are some aspects of this theory that I don't understand.


    IF US Government is already controlling and developing e-cat and the strategy is that the scientific community must continue to think and say that LENR is a fringe science and not real, why did Rossi's tried to built a scientific credibility by means of two TPRs, professors and so much pushed?


    Note that the second TPR included also fuel and ash analysis to show the isotopic changes as evidence of LENR, but in this way giving to anyone also the possibility to know and replicate his "secret" fuel.


    Should we think that fuel and ash analysis was a false, a trick to confuse the Russian or Chinese competitors (the US Government "enemies")?


    If we suppose this, we should also consider that Parkhomov (he claims a positive replication of ecat) is a Government secret agent, a liar paid from US Government.
    If not, he is a dangerous competitor that just thanks to TPRs information has been able to frustrate all the secret hard work and the US strategy becomes a ball-park strategy.
    Same considerations can be done about Chinese replicators (one of them claims a positive replication of ecat), also in this case he should be liars or US secret agent.


    On the contrary I believe that we should consider a most simple scenario and the most simple explanation.

    Rossi's scam is small stuff. Large scams are measured in billions -- for example the cost of the shut down of California's San Onofre nuclear power plant due to defective steam generators from Mitsubishi Heavy Industries. The scam is that the utility company is trying to stick the rate payers (customers) with the bill! BILLIONS! There are many huge scams. People steal from the US Medicare and Medicaid programs, again in the hundreds of millions and billions. Rossi is trivial.


    As for his being a scammer, it's a virtual certainty. Consider this:



    - no test or demo of the ecat has ever been done properly even though, as many have pointed out to Rossi, it's easy to do. For example, all existing ecats could have been properly (and independently) tested with methods like this:


    https://gsvit.wordpress.com/20…te-calorimetria-a-flusso/
    (non Italian readers, use Google Translate)


    - Rossi has a history of NOTHING BUT SCAMS in his past. Petroldragon was a huge and costly scam and then Rossi cheated the US DOD out of millions for thermoelectric devices which never did what he claimed and which he bought as industrial surplus from a Russian source.


    - read the Rossi story from people who really researched it-- Gary Wright and Steven Krivit (an LENR enthusiast) and then tell me it's no scam!


    http://newenergytimes.com/v2/s…Investigation-Index.shtml


    http://shutdownrossi.com/

    Parkhamov may be a liar -- certainly his data graphs are proven fake -- but he may also be simply an incompetent, past his prime, and working outside his field of expertise. Certainly the work he did in his home using kitchen utensils is worthless.

    • Official Post

    @Henry


    So. Let us return to hypothesis 1 again: The E-Cat is a fraud.


    I have a question: Do we both agree that IF the e-cat is fraud, then Rossi and [lexicon]Industrial Heat[/lexicon] are collaborators?


    If [lexicon]Industrial Heat[/lexicon] (With Cherokee at the back of it) was not a collaborator, I can under no circumstances imagine how they could not see after more than one and a half year that the e-cat is not working. So they would know it by now and thus they would demand the 11 million USD back and they would probably also charge Rossi because of fraud. Anyhow, we would have heard about this by now and Darden would not have praised the E-Cat at ICCF.


    How could Rossi have deceived [lexicon]IH[/lexicon] LLC (Cherokee) in such a way for so long?


    I have another question: Do we both agree that Cherokee Sanford Group has been a large, serious company since 1984?
    See: http://www.bloomberg.com/resea…shot.asp?privcapId=127890


    It seems very unlikely to me that [lexicon]IH[/lexicon] is preparing a fraud.


    That is the reason how I come to my conclusion that the E-Cat is real.


    If what you say is true, and the government is not controlling the E-Cat although it is real...


    I ask: How can the us government be so stupid? How can it be so blind?


    Maybe you are right and they did not acquire the E-Cat but then they would be unthinkably stupid.


    I am sure that US government is controlling the e-cat and I keep this convincement. But your question "Why the reports?" is a very good one. I do not know why.


    No, we don't agree. I think [lexicon]Industrial Heat[/lexicon], Darden and Vaughn are victims of Rossi's fraud, not co-conspirators. There is no reason why they would willingly participate in fraud while Rossi has every reason and his background as a con-man has to be considered. Darden and Vaughn are probably dreamers and they did not do due diligence. They supposedly hired an independent scientist to review Rossi's claims but what if it was some fool like Jim Dunn or Nelson or any one of many scientists who have fallen for Rossi's obvious scamming? That's what I think happened. Darden and Vaughn may be great business people but they are ignorant of the scientific method, controlled experiments, and the need to test extraordinary claims thoroughly by completely independent means.


    If Rossi was credible, large companies such as Tesla, GM, GE, Google and others, would be ALL OVER IT. And the government can not stop independent research, especially not secretly! If it tried, the whole thing would be in court immediately. Anyway, nobody seems to be stopping the silly Swedes and nobody is stopping Rossi from squatting in his electrically heated container for a year!

    I am sorry to say, but I have some experience with investors.


    And you know what: they don't buy technologies, they buy stories! That is how the game works.


    They don't expect every investment to be successful, they actually expect most of them to fail.


    Rossi's fairytale device is peanuts to these guys, and they don't mind making themselves fools, because nobody will remember two years later.


    OK, before we should spend too few words about what it consists [lexicon]Industrial Heat[/lexicon].
    Up to now did you see factories, buildings, hundreds of employees, like normally an important company or industry should have?
    I didn't, I saw only Rossi, Fabiani at work and a couple of mexican workers.


    Did you read any report or witness about a large company, exampe on a North Caroline local newspaper?
    It's quite anomalous that an important company doesn't appear ever.
    Is this normal after two years of life of a company? A company that should change our lifes giving to the world the revolutionary energy solution?


    I believe not, substantially it seems we are talking of a "one-man company", mainly a financial entity.
    Rossi is quite cunning, he throws smoke into the eyes of readers and he sell more of what it has or exist.


    Cerokee is a real estate company, they invested 11 Millions of USD too hastily, they keep alive the play of Rossi with the hope to recover in some way their investment.


    Why did Tom Darden talk to ICCF-19 strongly encouraging people to work hard in this field where his company it would be the leader?
    It's a nonsense for a CEO of a company if it already has the solution in hand and want to get a large financial return from the market.

    • Official Post

    About government controlling E-cat, I don't have the same vision.


    government does not exist, it is many elected people, civil servants, academics, militaries of various position and grade...


    each individually, is afraid to lose his position, his power, his election, his budget, his job, if he dare to talk of LENR .
    Spawar research was stopped when it make noise on TV.
    Hopefully the subject is so radioactive for careers that nobody even seriously care to critic, as making the subject visible would first force to see there is something real, and that there is huge mistakes.
    so as you observe, beside some independent critics, or some local island of autonomy, no authority make something else than censoring communication to the public, repeating 1989 myth, carefully not considering recent evidence except the less credible like E-cat or Blacklight.
    No serious scientific paper have been published against serious cold fusion evidence since the initial cascade as the result would be too predictable...


    there is exception recently, but see how the media avoid the subject, and do a pathetic job when they don't avoid it...


    they screw up, they know it, and they wait for their retirement, for someone else to pay the bill.


    some militaries have watched the domain, have made reports, like DIA, UK, Canada, Sweden...
    even Elforsk is ignored. even the mindguard of Sverigue radio send by Coyaud, criticizing Elforsk had no impact except maintaining the current "see no lenr, hear no lenr, talk no lenr".
    Nobody is fired, the boss of Elforsk is still boss, and nobody talk of LENR except few supporters, few scientists, some university leader that go to LENR-Cities or open labs like CEES or Tohuku CMNS lab, with a weak media coverage.


    If the world was as naive people imagine, like most skeptic, and many conspiracy theorist of LENR, the news of LENR should make oil price bump, boss be fired, tons of critical papers be reviewed, journalist to sell papers for and against in fierce debate, political debate, greens look and review evidences...


    nothing happen.
    because they all know LENR is real but slow to develop because of the denial, they all know they screw up, and since they continue to screw up farther, they get deeper and deeper in that strategy of blindness and muteness.


    I don't talk of honest skeptic who really believe that LENR evidence are non existent and that it is a great conspiracy involving thousands of scientists including some world class expert in calorimetry and electrochemistry, national labs of all continents, without any funding motivation.


    about Elforsk Lugano report, I imagine that the people who follow that domain know that the calorimetry of Lugano is flawed, but they also know all the rest, like Ferrara, isotopic shifts, and all science, and they know who is Tom Darden, his money, his assets, his behavior, as much as Brillouin, and they carefully avoid to raise any critic or support.


    there is no conspiracy, it is just tons of individual coward=rational behaviors. what makes groupthink. Functional stupidity.


    Only courageous, irrational, ignored or untouchable people can afford to criticize or support LENR, to talk of it.

    > But ask yourself: What would you do if you were the US government and you would suddenly find out about a guy like Rossi who has discovered such an effect and invented such a device?


    I would dump all my oil reserves on the market and try to get rid of them while oil is still worth something. Which would explain why the US is exporting oil these days. They don't have much left and yet they are producing and selling as much as possible around the world these days.

    I wouldn't accuse [lexicon]IH[/lexicon] of anything. Darden and Rossi gave completely different status reports in Italy a few months ago. I started a thread "he said she said" on this forum about that divergence of status. Rossi is talking mass manufacturing while Darden is saying some day over the rainbow.


    There is another motive for fraud to consider. Ever have friends who tell you exactly what you want to hear? They do it because they think they are doing good. Rossi may be on to something. Only it might be unstable and not ready for prime time. If he puts up a show and charade and pretends it is real this causes others to do research in that area. He may be blowing smoke so that other people and institutions will do something to try to figure out LENR.

    • Official Post

    again it is an error to imagine that "the government"exist.


    the boss of DoE have blocked, and supperted blockers, who put LENR evidence under the carpet, so he put evidence under the carpet and carefullu disinforming his boss.
    this increase his need to hide under the carpet.


    the tech watcher of DoE who clearly see it is real, want to send hs kids to College and does not want to be fired after he indirectly accuse his bss of lying to the politicans.
    the politicians either follow the consensus by ignorance, or trust, or know that if they say LENR is real they will be probably bashed by DoE boss.
    in fact would they dare, it will not happen, because dOe boss will just push journalist to ignore the subject, not to let anybody dig in the mud.
    the journalists like politicians, either follow and parrot the consensus, or have exactly the same fear.


    I know two proeminent journal who send journalist t LENRG conference, with very interesting things which happened there duing the opening...
    the journalist were motivated to report, and... and what.. nothing happened.
    not even a flame attack against the politicians who support that supposed fraud... nobody is attacking Airbus CS.... nothing...
    hear no lenr, see no lenr, talk no lenr...


    don't make any noise on the subject or thousands of people like Duncan or Lewans will quickly see the reality and leak the data...


    US decision makers, government officers, politicians, pension fund traders, don't consider LENR (except some tech watcher who are ignored, like in blackrock), because their care of their position not on someone else money, ... they care of their bonus, their job, their election, not on the interest of who they wrok fr.
    anf would one behave in a responsible way, like Elforsk boss, DIA tech watcher, he would be ignored, not even fired...



    organization don't exist as intelligent being, they are emergent structures from individual interests.

Subscribe to our newsletter

It's sent once a month, you can unsubscribe at anytime!

View archive of previous newsletters

* indicates required

Your email address will be used to send you email newsletters only. See our Privacy Policy for more information.

Our Partners

Supporting researchers for over 20 years
Want to Advertise or Sponsor LENR Forum?
CLICK HERE to contact us.