Freethinker's replication attempts

  • For control, and reminding F&P fantastic calorimeter (fast and sensible), PID problems, and control/command problem, maybe one should also reduce thermal mass to avoid overshoot or late reaction with PID or simply with natural cooling.


    if thermal resistance is high, system may have a high COP, but with high thermal mass it will runaway without any hope of cooling... using conductive and thin but solid material may allow fast heat transfer, at least between part of the powder...


    I was not thinking of agility, but that is also an issue that might also be addressed, that is the agility of the measurements and rapidity of the internal heat flows to avoid runaways could be important. Since we are interested in the time integrated power otherwise known as energy, and runaway heating has occsionally been seen or at least suspected, the agility might also be considered a leading issue. Agility of measurement and rapid response to runaway heating (positive feedback loops) might also become important once manipulations of EM or other variables become of interest.


    It is my view that at the basic demonstration level where our replicators are currently working they should be mainly looking at the ratio of heat OUT to heat IN, this is the basis for calculating a COP. Lost heat from the IN side of the fraction effectively raises the denominator without contributing to actual heat in the reactor itself. Further lost heat OUT can falsely lower the numerator and hence the estimate or measure of the actual heat that may be generated by the reactions / reactor. Reflectors, high temperature insulation and thermal breaks in the leads and supports for the reactor can all go a long way toward making the COP calculation more "real". Parkhomov's double boiler was a simple attempt or start towards resolving such concerns. His system had the issue of phase change which may not have worked well there, since boiled water is not readily conducted away at the instant of its evolution-- and of course any effort such as that has the issue of entrained droplets of water as well. A simple, well insulated bath which does not reach boiling, and does not allow evaporation, might go some way toward the calorimetry that will ultimately be necessary--- as long as the whole experiment does not raise the whole bath to the boiling point (the phase change involves much more energy than simple temperature elevation-- hundreds of times more energy is required to pass through the boiling point than to raise say liquid water one degree without the phase change).


    It seems to be a compromise? may gas, metal or ceramic help to increase heat transfer speed?
    F&P used low mass thermal barrier, the vacuum and silvered glass... the idea to use mirrors seems interesting, as it increase resistance without thermal mass... don't laugh, but low emissivity (high reflectivity) treatment may help, but it seems impractical and uncontrollable.
    light foam is probably a good idea, as it have high thermal resistance with few weight.


    Again I would point to the losses. An incandescent heater "dogbone" is pouring out hundreds of watts of power by radiation and convection, in fact nearly all of its power is going toward those paths. To get to or maintain a desired operating temperature, this is heat that has to be replaced by the nichrome / Kanthal heater elements. It is a major source of heat loss that is at best poorly accounted in the COP calculations to come. It can be largely avoided by good insulation, by good reflection, perhaps by other design changes. Further, heat losses such as this can also be accounted using a large calorimetric bath that catches all the heat (ohmic and possible LENR) and converts it to temperature rise in the known (by empirical testing and heat / temperature rise curves) that is the behavior of the bath / reactor system. The heat in can be measured by several means, one being simply the integrated electrical power delivered to the system.


    The fiber insulations such as FiberFrax are quite lightweight. Most foams are not rated at the temperatures such as 1500 C. But thermal inertia is just another loss of agility, it can otherwise ultimately be accounted for in the temperature rise / calorimetric calculations, since the whole can be assessed by ohmic heating without any LENR, to create a "standard" energy v. temperature curve.


    Much greater agility and response to "runaway" could be provided by nearly all radiant system based on quartz halogen tungsten lamps, focused on say an black oxide coated Inconel or other high temperature metallic reactor vessel (relatively thin walls), lined inside, if necessary, with an alumina or other refractory. That way any sudden rise in output can be quelled by turning off the lamps (much less thermal inertia than the big Kanthal and ceramic cement "brick". In addition to rapidly shutting down the heating current, a blast of cold air, argon, CO2 or even water spray can be blown across or even through, if necessary, to rapidly quench any unexpected runaway.

  • Thanks all for the feedback. I am in vacation mode today, so I will have to get back to you all on the different items. I managed to scribble a wire diagram to explain where I measure


    Thanks for that. If you have a moment, try moving the current measurement after the SSR and see if the spikes are still there to try an rule out any oddities with the SSR such as shorting.

  • Thanks for that. If you have a moment, try moving the current measurement after the SSR and see if the spikes are still there to try an rule out any oddities with the SSR such as shorting.


    :D It is funny, though, because when I drew that wire diagram, it struck me too. I will try that as soon as I get back to the lab. I plan to do a continuation run Monday, and will rewire according to your suggestion.


    Thnx



  • Yes,


    I have no doubt that I could do more to optimize the PID setup for my specific application, possibly remove it completely, and go for a embedded system like me356. I need to look into that.


    It is hard to feed the PID any moving average data, as it take the input from a TC directly. As the PID entails integration, that average is in play by the regulator anyway.

  • I guess there is some issue with PID parameters, its not controlling well, too much oscillation. May be the PID experts here can look at it and suggest some corrections.
    If you use a controller, the V,I and power will always be messy. You need to integrate the power before plotting. Take a running average of say 100-500 points (or whatever makes it smooth).
    I think Ecco posted a graph showing what Kanthal wires handle high powers. I think it needs to be above 2mm.
    A calibration is a must. Else you will never know where you are going.
    Other than these minor issues, you are progressing very well . :thumbup:


    Thanks for the input.


    You are so right. Calibration is a MUST, especially if we are talking about small signals of anomalous heat. Right now, a refueling between a dummy and active fuel require dis-assembly of the reactor such that the position of the TCs, the IR gun laser point position, the actual mm accuracy of the core tube position in the reactor, initial pressure after assembly of transducer, etc etc, will make it all a new situation. Not to mention if the coil breaks too.


    What I think I need to do


    * an uniform way to deploy the TCs as to ensure that they will do the same job, with as little error as possible, between runs. Possibly by encasing (completely of partly) the reactor with say Al2O3 bricks that are machined allowing for stable mounting of the TCs, same every time. (FiberFrax is not on the table yet, I'll stick with what I have momentarily). Also machining allowing for a gap to be used by the IR gun, at mid of core tube position.


    * a series of dummy runs up to 1000C on the shell surface, then average the data and compute random error estimates for the temperature as a function of the power in. Between runs, the reactor should be dismantled or at least remove from the test bed, to get error bars that make sense in the real world.


    * find a way to make the SSR current output behave, or register, better. I will try now to move the measuring point to after the SSR to see if the spike go away. I will look into the PID setup, to see if I can make the settling time short and distinct, yet without overshoot.


    * post process data such that a moving average is used on the current measurements. Same method employed on all data sets.


    Regarding thickness of the wire, if you have the link to Ecco's stuff. please post. The current situation, with the length of the reactor, the max power of the outlet of 10A, 0.7 and 0.5 mm diam are the only reasonable dimensions of the Kanthal A1 to reach powers where it get hot enough. To use thicker wires I need to have another transformer bringing down the voltage but allowing for higher currents, and that trafo must be a 1kW atleast, if not more, secondary voltage matching the ~2 Ohm coil, as to give 20A maximum. I will wait a bit before going to a thicker wire, as such a trafo is expensive, and I feel I have not yet (by far) exhausted my possibilities with what I have.

  • I very much appreciate your efforts and even temperament here Freethinker.


    I am concerned that some or all of the replication attempts undeway have a significant handicap with respect to the eventual COP. That is high radiative, conductive and convective heat losses. These can be remedied in various ways without altering the essential chemical and physical mechanisms being evaluated. Examples include using fiberFrax to insulate the "dog bone", using a heating system that is inherently resistant to failure-- for example quartz halogen lamps. Using reflectors to concentrate and/or return radiant energy to the reactor. And so on.


    I welcome discussion of this issue in greater detail.


    I appreciate the input.



    But I have just barely finished my first run with the current setup. No doubt I will change things as I move along, but I will stay true to coil heater for now as that was used in the Lugano report, it was what Parkhomov used. I will however, look into encapsulate the reactor, either partly or completely, as i see it as a mean to make TC measurements more predictable.

  • Regarding thickness of the wire, if you have the link to Ecco's stuff. please post. The current situation, with the length of the reactor, the max power of the outlet of 10A, 0.7 and 0.5 mm diam are the only reasonable dimensions of the Kanthal A1 to reach powers where it get hot enough. To use thicker wires I need to have another transformer bringing down the voltage but allowing for higher currents, and that trafo must be a 1kW atleast, if not more, secondary voltage matching the ~2 Ohm coil, as to give 20A maximum. I will wait a bit before going to a thicker wire, as such a trafo is expensive, and I feel I have not yet (by far) exhausted my possibilities with what I have.


    Here is Ecco's data:
    Firax Tech replic series


    The downside of using a thicker wire is that it will need high currents, as you said. Its solution is to insulate everything ( like LENZ group did) by bricks etc, so a lower current can be used to reach higher temperature.

  • Here is Ecco's data:
    Firax Tech replic series


    The downside of using a thicker wire is that it will need high currents, as you said. Its solution is to insulate everything ( like LENZ group did) by bricks etc, so a lower current can be used to reach higher temperature.


    :)


    Thanks.


    For the Ecco link.


    And you are right.


    I have been focused on what I put in alone, not what I spew out in radiation and convection. Admittedly, I have not studied the cases with enclosed reactors so closely, as I intended first to NOT to do so. I will thus look into making an enclosure, firstly with Al2O3, to have a robust way to deploy the TCs, and manufacture a new 1mm diam Kanthal A1 coil, and try it out with lower power in the enclosed reactor. But with that said, aiming at having 1000C, in an enclosed system, would be OK for the 0.7 wire as well, so there are reasons to start there.

  • Using thicker should reduce the chances of the heater coil burning out or at least prolong the life of it a bit. While this would reduce the overall resistance of the coil, why not make two coils of half your required resistance and wrap them one on top of another with a little cement to separate them, i.e have a two layer coil. You can then connect the ends of the coils in series to increase your resistance or can even connect them so that the coils reinforce or counter any magnetic effects.

  • Using thicker should reduce the chances of the heater coil burning out or at least prolong the life of it a bit. While this would reduce the overall resistance of the coil, why not make two coils of half your required resistance and wrap them one on top of another with a little cement to separate them, i.e have a two layer coil. You can then connect the ends of the coils in series to increase your resistance or can even connect them so that the coils reinforce or counter any magnetic effects.


    True. This could be done. I would need to get a bigger outer tube to hold two 1mm coils and a layer of cement. My current stock can handle only single 1mm at best.


    It would be a slightly more stationary solution, but likely the coils would last longer. One might argue that I could mount the second coil around the outer Alumina tube as well, and have no outer Alumina/Mullite surface

  • An extra reactor can be made and the two heater coils can be connected in series, doubling the resistance.
    The other reactor can be empty (or filled with alumina powder), and can serve as a control.
    I think Denis had such a setup.

  • Thanks all for the feedback. I am in vacation mode today, so I will have to get back to you all on the different items. I managed to scribble a wire diagram to explain where I measure


    https://drive.google.com/file/…eG8/view?usp=docslist_api

    Think you should consider modification to power supply to get forward as well as reverse currents through the coil like Rossi & Parkhomov do. Think this may be necessary to stimulate, grow & control (ssm) LENR areas in the fuel element. Also look at PCE 380 picture in lugano report as it shows forward & reverse current pulses used by Rossi. He has stated that AC currents are necessary on his blog.

  • I am still looking into the outcome of the previous run with Ni and LAH. When I yesterday was back in my garage lab, I checked the pressure in the reactor, and it was still under pressure. My intention was to put on a new coil and run some more, but is was not possible. The coil was melted in some spots and had fused with the Alumina. I opened up the reactor, or rather had to smash it and found the core tube and the fuel melted in a slightly twisted way. I have attached a picture.


    I have reshaped my testbed so it now have insulation around the reactor, also done a change in measurements of the current, and have not yet seen the strange spikes in power, in the data. I am running calibration runs currently for the modified testbed. More to come when available.

  • An extra reactor can be made and the two heater coils can be connected in series, doubling the resistance.
    The other reactor can be empty (or filled with alumina powder), and can serve as a control.
    I think Denis had such a setup.


    Let me suggest that some effort should be put into making the heat capacity of the contents of a "dummy'" / "mock" / "null control" as close to the experimental reactor as possible. Of course the phase change evident in FreeThinker's recent meltdown, would make some of that difficult-- but at least the goal should be passive thermal equivalence. One might have argon as a replacement of the hydrogen. So an equivalent molar weight of nickel, and perhaps a fused lithium aluminum alloy and argon at the heat capacity equivalent to the missing hydrogen. It takes a bit of chemical calculation. If anyone is interested, I will try to work up some numbers for others to critique.


    Done with a fair degree of care, such a paired experiment would answer many critics and many critical questions.


    By the way, the resistance of the two heaters should be exactly the same, and should remain the same up through operating temperature. Further, any corrosion is likely to be an experimental confound and at least should be made as nearly equal as possible. I believe the precise resistance numbers should also help monitor the health of the heater wires through a trial, and through any series of trials.

  • Let me suggest that some effort should be put into making the heat capacity of the contents of a "dummy'" / "mock" / "null control" as close to the experimental reactor as possible. Of course the phase change evident in FreeThinker's recent meltdown, would make some of that difficult-- but at least the goal should be passive thermal equivalence. One might have argon as a replacement of the hydrogen. So an equivalent molar weight of nickel, and perhaps a fused lithium aluminum alloy and argon at the heat capacity equivalent to the missing hydrogen. It takes a bit of chemical calculation. If anyone is interested, I will try to work up some numbers for others to critique.


    Done with a fair degree of care, such a paired experiment would answer many critics and many critical questions.


    By the way, the resistance of the two heaters should be exactly the same, and should remain the same up through operating temperature. Further, any corrosion is likely to be an experimental confound and at least should be made as nearly equal as possible. I believe the precise resistance numbers should also help monitor the health of the heater wires through a trial, and through any series of trials.


    For sure, the best way to do a dummy would be to mimic the real situation as closely as possible.


    As I am now committed to a certain path in the choices I have made, some things are easier than other to modify. I will not use argon gas in the near future, and I may consider a double setup with a dummy and active reactor, but that too is a change in testbed setup that make it be something for the future.


    I do have limited time and funds for this effort, and is now committed to get the current setup stable with surface temperatures at 1000C. Calibrating with Al2O3 sawoff dust at 1 bar, and do the same with LAH and Al2O3 would provide enough to secure a clear determination of anomalous heat on the scale seen in Lugano and by Parkhomov in the real runs, especially if occurring over hours.

  • For sure, the best way to do a dummy would be to mimic the real situation as closely as possible.


    As I am now committed to a certain path in the choices I have made, some things are easier than other to modify. I will not use argon gas in the near future, and I may consider a double setup with a dummy and active reactor, but that too is a change in testbed setup that make it be something for the future.


    I do have limited time and funds for this effort, and is now committed to get the current setup stable with surface temperatures at 1000C. Calibrating with Al2O3 sawoff dust at 1 bar, and do the same with LAH and Al2O3 would provide enough to secure a clear determination of anomalous heat on the scale seen in Lugano and by Parkhomov in the real runs, especially if occurring over hours.


    Let us all know if we can help with funding or materials.


    It appears that you won't be replicating all of the obvious errors just because some old guys wrote that 'one has to do that" from their desks. To them I say, "that might be needed for strong publication". In your case it is unnecessary at this point to repeat obvious errors. You are still doing development work. Incremental changes are clearly already in your view--- I've seen your YouTube video-- impressive by the way.


    Careful attention to efficiency and to a control and/or precise calorimetry could allow modest COPs (between say 1.5 and 2) to reliably show the proof of principle and yet still be far from the "runaway" situation where the actual COPs may well exceed 4 or more.... based on Mitchell Swartz' OOP evidence, and admitting that it is surely a whole different situation---I suspect that pushing toward 1000 degrees C and higher was found necessary only because the designs were so poor that high COP was needed to overcome all the losses and other noise. (Written from my desk, unfortunately).

  • Hi,


    I have posted a couple of new videos. I am doing calibration runs right now using the modified test bed. I'll get back when I have some interesting graphs and data to write about.


    On a more fun note.
    Modified test bed


    Nice videos, FreeThinker. It really makes it clear how dedicated you are to doing it right. And the battery story, humorous but what a lesson to us all.


    I mentioned sometime back the possible use of a sapphire rod. Actually there are fairly cheap sapphire windows:


    http://www.edmundoptics.com/op…ws/sapphire-windows/1904/


    They claim good transmissivity from 200 to 5,500 nm (0.2 to 5.5 um). Your bright yellow is producing a lot of energy in the mid visible, that is 500 nm, and of course a lot more in the longer wavelenths including "mid-IR". By the way, I strongly recommend you wear ordinarly oxy-acetylene welding googles when looking at your reactor.... lenses of eyes are fairly routine to replace now, but not retinas!


    One could close off your opening allowing much closer positioning for the pyrometer / IR photometer using such a window (assuming the IR transmission was good through the photodiode's spectral range--or even a true pyrometer... Anyway, a sapphire window could be attached at the outside surface of your firebrick, occluding the "hole" or maybe even at another position in the "hole" to create a double walled conduction and convection block. An Al2O3 tube with two sapphire window ends and an evacuated interior would likely be better than a solid rod-- far less conductive and far broader spectral transmissivity, and perhaps cheaper than a sapphire rod. Such an "IR / Vis / UV light pipe", cemented right into the "hole" itself should allow very close image coupling to your IR scope. The much thinner pair of end panes would attenuate less of the thermal signal than a solid rod, regardless of the spectrum. The idea being to get the optical / pyrometric device to "see" only the inside of the reactor rather than a bunch of additional cold brick with a little hot spot.

  • Good idea with a window into the core. Not only will it give better/new measurements, but also opens a way to stimulate/trigger active sites with laser pulses, which might be an option equal to heat pulse or EM stimulation.


    But for now, I have full respect and understanding for replicating closer to Lugano/Parkhomov, having some good results in that realm first.

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