What Exactly Is Rossi’s “Mme Curie” Reactor — A Direct Source of Electricity?

    • Official Post

    [feedquote='E-Cat World','http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/08/11/what-exactly-is-the-mme-curie-reactor-a-direct-source-of-electricity/']Ever since Andrea Rossi announced a breakthrough with a new version of the Hot Cat yesterday, there have been quite a number of questions put to him on the Journal of Nuclear Physics about just what it is, and what it does. So far we are getting a somewhat unclear picture, but there are some […][/feedquote]

  • [feedquote='E-Cat World','http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/08/11/what-exactly-is-the-mme-curie-reactor-a-direct-source-of-electricity/']Ever since Andrea Rossi announced a breakthrough with a new version of the Hot Cat yesterday, there have been quite a number of questions put to him on the Journal of Nuclear Physics about just what it is, and what it does. So far we are getting a somewhat unclear picture, but there are some […][/feedquote]


    What it is is classical energy generation fraud like so many before it, a recent one being Steorn. As time goes by, perfectly promising experiments are never fixed of their well understood deficiencies. Instead, new experiments are proposed every few months or years and there is never a properly tested device. And of course, there is never a product. Meanwhile, the investors are jerked around. The old ones are disposed of in favor of new ones who don't understand or remember what came before and who don't test the claims properly. It's very obvious and very like Rossi. The so-called Journal of Nuclear Physics is no journal. It's a ridiculous blog full of silly and impossible claims by Rossi, claims which never materialized. Or do you see a robotic factory, involvement of major universities, isotopes made on the cheap, self-destruct devices, telemetry from ecats, and so on. How about a boiler replaced by an ecat heating an entire factory in 2007? If you believe Rossi, you'd probably buy a Rolex watch for $10 from a street vendor.

  • What it is is classical energy generation fraud like so many before it, a recent one being Steorn.

    Mary Yugo is a classic pseudoskeptic, who announces his own speculation as if it were fact. I.e., a believer, simply a believer in his own ideas. Steorn and the work of Rossi have very little relationship. Steorn never claimed strong results, and there is nothing from Steorn that was on the level of, say, the so-called "independent professor tests" with Rossi. Yes, that work was badly flawed, but there are real scientists claiming to have observed Rossi's devices generating heat.


    Steorn never did a demonstration that was truly convincing on the face. Rossi has, and many times. Again, there were flaws, and my opinion as to what is likely happening is that Rossi does have a working device, but reliability was poor. Only recently has Rossi been announcing any reliability data at all. Nothing all that clear.


    Quote

    As time goes by, perfectly promising experiments are never fixed of their well understood deficiencies.

    What is being shown the public is not "experiments," as such, but demonstrations. This is not science, it's business.


    Quote

    Instead, new experiments are proposed every few months or years and there is never a properly tested device.

    Yugo is presenting what is public as if it was a universal fact. Rossi does not appear to have any motive to convince. He has trade secrets, so basic scientific confirmation of his work, independent, is mostly impossible. I have written that I don't trust a word Rossi says, without confirmation. That doesn't mean that I think he is lying, and I find "lying" for the most part, to be implausible.


    If Rossi is telling the truth, there is a device (an array of E-cats) that is essentially selling energy to a customer. This device must be said to be under test, and, again, if he's telling the truth, so far, there is reasonable success.


    As is common with pseudoskeptics, circumstantial evidence and weak inferences are used to support conclusions, mere possibilities (sometimes preposterous ones) as if they were proven fact.

    Quote

    And of course, there is never a product. Meanwhile, the investors are jerked around.

    A case can be made that this happened with Steorn, but I haven't noticed that any sued. "Jerking around" investors with false information is illegal. However, we don't know what information is given to investors in Rossi's technology. So basically, "Mary" is presenting us with more speculation, as if it were fact.

    Quote

    The old ones are disposed of in favor of new ones who don't understand or remember what came before and who don't test the claims properly. It's very obvious and very like Rossi.

    I've seen no evidence that this has happened. However, anyone investing in work like that of Rossi had better do due diligence. I assume that Rossi does show real test results to investors. He is not generally soliciting investment. So far, no complaining investors. While that isn't proof, it is strong evidence that Yugo is blowing smoke. There is no actual information here, that we did not already know:

    Quote

    The so-called Journal of Nuclear Physics is no journal. It's a ridiculous blog full of silly and impossible claims by Rossi, claims which never materialized.

    Well, that's an exaggeration. Rossi started his own journal, that's obvious. I don't know anyone who takes it seriously as a scientific journal. On the other hand, it *is* a journal of a kind (It publishes submitted papers that have nothing to do with Rossi's work).


    Rossi then uses the comment pages as his own blog, which is not "journal-like." Anyone who has been following this knows what JONP is and is not.

    Quote

    Or do you see a robotic factory, [...]


    He never announced details, and I'm not going to search to see what he actually claimed. This, by the way, is common with pseudoskeptics: factual claims with no references, so we can see if the claim has a basis. Lots of manufacturing nowadays is done with some kind of automation. If Rossi has made a hundred reactors (isn't that about what is in the running "1 MW" test?), very good chance this was done partly "robotically." However, what I recall having seen was plans to start up major manufacturing, and it's clear that Rossi is not yet ready for that. So a commercial inventor makes an announcement that doesn't happen at the planned time. This is far from unusual!

    Quote

    [...] involvement of major universities, [...]

    Yes. That exists, though we could quibble about "major."

    Quote

    [...] isotopes made on the cheap [...]

    This would be a speculation from the Lugano test results, which appear to show massive transmutation of the material. I find that radically implausible, and suspect manipulation of the test material, something that was possible, because Rossi was allowed to handle it. Rossi has a motive to confuse competitors, and no analysis of this affair should discount the possibility of false information being generated. If Rossi did not fake those results, there remain two possibilities: some other artifact, or it was real. In either case, the speculation was reasonable (even if wrong.)

    Quote

    [...] self-destruct devices [...]

    That was a plan to allow the release of devices while keeping the materials secret. Probably a stupid idea, but not a terribly unreasonable one. It would not happen until there were devices on the market. The main thing that Rossi did, early on, that was clearly an error -- or deception -- was show high optimism for rapid commercial release. In favor of that being a sincere error, the big difficulty with LENR has always been reliability. We know that LENR is real, from conclusive experimental evidence, but practical reliability is totally another issue. An inventor may readily think that solutions to problems are just around the corner, we will have them solved in a few months....

    Quote

    [...] telemetry from ecats, and so on.


    This, again, would not be seen until there were commercial products and it was considered desirable and worth the expense to be able to monitor them. I thought this was a Defkalion idea, but it would not be surprising if Rossi also thought of it. Most of these are simple speculations and plans, not preposterous *if the "Rossi effect" is real. Telemetry would allow the supplier to know how the device was working and if it needed service, and nowadays this is cheap and easy to do.

    Quote

    How about a boiler replaced by an ecat heating an entire factory in 2007?

    I don't recall it being "entire factory," just that it was used for heating. The Rossi approach has always required major input power, and a Rossi device could be used as a space heater *even if it produces no excess heat.* So what's preposterous about this?


    This would be an early device. And I will repeat: I don't trust a word Rossi writes without confirmation. Rossi makes many unconfirmed claims. A pseudoskeptic will *assume* they are lies. A genuine skeptic simply does not believe them without confirmation, but may follow normal human practice, it's common law: testimony is presumed true unless controverted. We give claims the benefit of the doubt for *[lexicon]conversation[/lexicon]*. Spending money on them requires more care!

    Quote

    If you believe Rossi, you'd probably buy a Rolex watch for $10 from a street vendor.

    Mmm.... first of all, I don't "believe" Rossi. However, what if I was an expert on Rolex watches, saw one for $10 from a street vendor, and with my expertise, I could tell it was genuine, no matter what the street vendor thinks?


    I can think of an item I bought like that, an L&JG Stickley bench I saw in a used furniture store for $200. However, I don't like any kind of cheating people based on their ignorance. I told the store owner what I thought it was worth (at least $1000). He sold it to me anyway. I put about $300 into refurbishing it and, even though the market had turned, I still sold it for $1500. Before the market had turned, maybe $3000 it would have been.


    I do not recommend that anyone without the resources for due diligence on Rossi invest in his work in any way. There is a high possibility of loss *even if the effect is real.* However, some very smart people have invested in him, essentially one investor (Cherokee Partners). Commentary like Yugo's, however, is worthless. Those who believe his ravings defraud themselves of any opportunity of learning something new.

  • http://www.rexresearch.com/nucell/nucell.htm


    The Paul Brown Resonant Nuclear Battery is an ideal EMF harvester design to take advantage the magnetic beams produced by the SPPs. The beta decays usually used to produce the EMF need not be present since SPPs produce magnetic power directly and act as ideal generators of EMF motive force. Anyone who is interested in LENR should look into the theory and engineering related to the Paul Brown Resonant Nuclear Battery. This technology will still support the Cat and Mouse drive concept. Rossi is realty something, How he thinks of these things is amazing.

  • ...plenty of sensible things


    Although you left out an important point: Yugo backs up his weak inferences with weak appeals to his own authority.


    He claims some sort of expertise in calorimetry... Yet he had to ask the venerable Thomas Clarke what "Q" means (in relation to heat transfer) and has since been erroneously conflating "COP" with "Q-factor", which, well... just google it if you have never come across this term before.


    Another facet of our esteemed friend, is that any rebuttals of his nonsense, even those that quantitatively rebut his 'qualitative' arguments, will be repeatedly ignored, and the same old nonsense will be endlessly repeated across various internet outlets.


    Of course, this should be expected from a pseudoskeptic (which you are quite correct to categorise as a type of 'believer' mentality), however, it still deserves pointing out, in case a less experienced person happens upon his fevered proselytising.


    PS. What's the "David-Giles effect"?

  • Quote

    How about a boiler replaced by an ecat heating an entire factory in 2007?


    Quote

    I don't recall it being "entire factory," just that it was used for heating.


    Of course you don't recall. You don't REALLY follow the story so you have no idea regarding the quantity and insanity of the bullsh*t Rossi has been pushing on believers for more than four years. Here is the exact quote and reference:


    Quote

    A practical embodiment of the inventive apparatus, installed on October 16, 2007, is at present perfectly operating 24 hours per day, and provides an amount of heat sufficient to heat the factory of the
    Company EON of via Carlo Ragazzi 18, at Bondeno...


    http://ip.com/pat/WO2009125444A1


    Seems a clear enough blatant lie to me. If it's not a lie, where is that magic heater? Who has seen it? Who has tested it and reported about it? It was EIGHT f*n years ago! I'll get to some of the remainder of the fragrant BS from Lomax if I find time and a clothespin to pinch off my nose. Lomax, the reason you don't get detailed point by point replies is that nothing changes your mind anyway and you have no limit on the amount of bovine excrement you provide.

  • A few more quotes from Rossi's idiotic and misnamed blog -- I call it Rossifiction:



    Then there was this:


    Quote

    Andrea Rossi
    February 19th, 2012 at 2:52 PM
    Dear Lu Fong: ...


    ... The 1 MW plant is a magnificence, and the preparation of the robotized line to produce the E-Cats is in schedule to start the production within Autumn and the deliveries within the next Winter, with some luck; in the worst case, within 18 months we will deliver, and we will deliver at the prices we promised.


    It's hardly a magnificence. It's a loose collection of old junk a toilet plumber would be embarrassed to show. As for the production line, I don't think it started in Autumn of 2012, did it?
    That was in early 2012 when Rossi made that claim. Where, 3 years later, are the "certificators"? What the hell *is* a certificator? Where is this robotized line which was already in production in March 2012?

  • Quote

    Yet he had to ask the venerable Thomas Clarke what "Q" means (in relation to heat transfer) and has since been erroneously conflating "COP" with "Q-factor", which, well... just google it if you have never come across this term before.


    Obviously, YOU have not the slightest idea about the usual usage of "Q" in heat transfer parlance. Here is the definition of "Q" --


    Quote

    The total amount of energy transferred as heat is conventionally written as Q (from Quantity) for algebraic purposes.[32] Heat released by a system into its surroundings is by convention a negative quantity (Q < 0); when a system absorbs heat from its surroundings, it is positive (Q > 0). Heat transfer rate, or heat flow per unit time, is denoted by (see link for symbol) . This should not be confused with a time derivative of a function of state (which can also be written with the dot notation) since heat is not a function of state.[33] Heat flux is defined as rate of heat transfer per unit cross-sectional area, resulting in the unit watts per square metre.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat


    LENR enthusiasts, especially the dumber ones of the Rossi-fan-bot personality, tend to confuse COP with power ratio. COP is a concept used to evaluate heat pumps and represents the ratio of power pumped to power used by the heat pump. Apparently Clarke (or someone else) used "Q" to represent the ratio of output power to input power in a supposed LENR device. I asked about it because it is NOT standard parlance in heat transfer or anywhere else. Q is most often a reference to a parameter in an electrical circuit which I will let you look up. You act like a dunce so you probably won't do it.


    Quote

    Another facet of our esteemed friend, is that any rebuttals of his nonsense, even those that quantitatively rebut his 'qualitative' arguments, will be repeatedly ignored, and the same old nonsense will be endlessly repeated across various internet outlets.

    Really? Show me a properly stated and reliable quantitative statement I tried to rebut qualitatively. With the link please. Otherwise just shut up about stuff you know nothing about.


    Quote

    Of course, this should be expected from a pseudoskeptic (which you are quite correct to categorise as a type of 'believer' mentality), however, it still deserves pointing out, in case a less experienced person happens upon his fevered proselytising.


    A pseudoskeptic is the term reserved by believers for those folks who don't fall for the gullible if attractive nonsense advanced by an idiot or a crook as science. No wonder you fall for criminals like Rossi, incompetent and negligent professors, and whatever it is that Levi eventually turns out to be (either incompetent, crooked or nuts -- the jury is still out on that one).

    • Official Post

    Note that many critics of Rossi "promises" are in fact caused by extrapolation on the meaning of his unclear statements...


    it is clear sometime he was simply wrong . I remember about his theory, copper, gamma shielding.
    Sometime it fails, or he changes his idea. thsi happened for home E-cat, on his first 1MW e-cat...
    sometime he seems to hide or try to fool competitors.


    sometime he simply answers with enthusiasm, and the community of supporters self-ignite in extrapolated the few words.
    We have to be careful to stay...


    world is complicated.
    saying it is all BS is easier than trying to sort what is errors, manipulation, failures, extrapolations, self-evident, from what is information or statement.


    I agree there is not much serious information on E-cat, and even less that is more or less supported by some evidence...
    E-cat is real, under test, supported by Tom Darden, causing transmutation and producing useful heat...


    even catching those few facts demand some reasoning as independent tests are incomplete or partially broke... anyway there are many data that when connected provide fair level of evidence.
    this is all the story of LENR... getting information demande effort, compilation of various evidences, and some honesty.

  • Really? Show me a properly stated and reliable quantitative statement I tried to rebut qualitatively. With the link please. Otherwise just shut up about stuff you know nothing about.


    Charming. Time for another trip down the rabbit hole...


    Quote from Jami

    Probably the oddest thing about Rossi’s new “plant” is the AC – a consumer-style Frigidair FRA086AT7 which is rated for 8,000 BTU. That seems hardly enough for the electronics alone. With 1 MW of heat supposedly produced on top of that, it must get unbearably hot inside the container – even if the insulation of all those pipes and “reactors” is in reality much better than it looks... (Feb, 22)


    Quote from Slad

    100 insulated ecats, each in a box measuring 0.3 x 0.3 x 0.6m plus an extra 10% for pipe work gives us 100m^2 of insulation in total.
    Lets say the insulation is 8cm thick and k=0.02 (polyurethane foam) and the ecat’s operating temperature is 150C…
    The insulation will only transfer 3000W, or 10,000BTU/Hr!
    The heat transfer through two natural-convection interfaces measuring 90m^2 (ie, the non-insulated walls and roof of a (spherical) shipping container) is approx. 2,000BTU when assuming a delta T of 10C.
    Heat emitted – Heat lost naturally = 8000BTU/hour. Easy. (Feb, 22) ...A quantitative argument?


    Quote from Mary &quot;The Mad Hatter&quot; Yugo

    ...even before checking Slad’s calculations, I am not confident of his assumptions... ...I am not sure about the 8 cm of insultation/insulation. Seems optimistic and would reduce interior volume a lot. And I have no idea where the 10% for the pipes comes from... (Feb, 23) ...An attempted qualitative rebuttal?


    Quote from Slad

    I reckon those are reasonable asumptions, 8cm isn’t all that much – solar storage hot water tanks have 5cm or so. 8cm board is easily available, although from the outside, the boxes look to me like some kind of multi-foil type – so k could be lower... ...Look, it was a back-of-envelope calculation… At first I thought Jami might be on the right track, as it seems odd (at first) that the air-con can only handle 0.3% of the claimed total output. I wanted to see/show that isn’t totally unreasonable. (Feb, 23)


    But then, four months later, the memory problems begin:


    Quote from Mary &quot;The Mad Hatter&quot; Yugo

    Rossi is such a genius. The hot cat and the megawatt plant are in a container which has one household window type A/C unit installed in one wall. Typically, these cool at a rate of up to 10,000 BTU/hr though his looks smaller. That’s about 3kW. He must have very efficient insulation!
    Suppose the heat leakage from his kludge with all the exposed and dubiously insulated pipes from all those “reactors” is only 10%, then at a megawatt output, he’d need to dump 100 kW not 3. Must be cozy and toasty inside the container, no? (June, 14)


    Quote from Jami

    We had that discussion a while back. It’s a Frigidair FRA086AT7, rated for 8,000 BTU... (June, 14)


    See, based on your so-called 'qualitative' reasoning, you've come up with an answer that differs from Slad's figure by a factor of 30. ..."Well, I should like to be a little larger, sir, if you wouldn't mind,' said Alice"


    Then, despite Jami's reminder, there's more! (With some added "speculation, announced as if it were fact")


    Quote from The Mad Hatter

    ...this is the image of Rossi’s 250kW reactor, presumably in operation, since he is studiously listening to it... ...So Rossi has his hands on a suitcase size reactor making 250kW and no insulation? How come he isn’t fried medium rare? (Aug, 6)


    In this era of Page-rank, ecatnews (a cesspool you regularly help to fill) does not deserve a link, in my opinion.


    And then there's this:


    A pseudoskeptic is the term reserved by believers for those folks who don't fall for the gullible if attractive nonsense advanced by an idiot or a crook as science.


    So, even according to your own weird definition, you are a pseudoskeptic?! 8| LOL.


    'Curiouser and curiouser', cried Alice...


    PS. please find me one academic reference that uses the term "power ratio" the way you use it above.

  • This isn't worth much of a reply and it's very tangential to Rossi's latest idiotic ravings about his ecats.


    Slad's calculations are based on pure conjectures and do not involve a 250kW ecat but rather one 25 times smaller in output. Rossi doesn't say how much insulation he uses or what type. It doesn't matter anyway since all the energy produced by ecats comes from Joule heating from the tremendous heaters and line powered supplies he incorporates into each machine.


    As for power ratio, almost any dunce would know what that means. Apparently, you are the exceptional dunce who doesn't. It's the imbeciles who believe Rossi who chose to use terminology from heat pumps where it is inappropriate. I tried to explain that and not surprisingly, you failed to comprehend the explanation.


    As for being a pseudoskeptic in the eyes of believers, no problem with that! As I noted, it means "folks who don't fall for the gullible if attractive nonsense advanced by an idiot or a crook as science." You prefer people who believe crooks and idiots? That doesn't surprise me either.


    Try to make some sense, Colwyn. That response of yours was a simple waste of time. Let's focus on Rossi's contradictions, ridiculous and impossible claims, bad demonstrations and experiments, how he bamboozled Lewan and the silly Swedish professors (you know, those professors who never replied to reasonable and polite questions about their dreadful ecat "work"?), and how Rossi lies constantly. OK?

  • Rossi is not using nickel in his new E-Cat - X reactor. He is using a nickel substitute.


    In May 2008 Japanese researcher Yoshiaki Arata (Osaka University) demonstrated an experiment that produced heat when deuterium gas was introduced into a cell containing a mixture of palladium and zirconium oxide. In an August 2009 peer reviewed paper Akira Kitamura (Kobe University) et al. reported about replication of this experiment. Replication of earlier work by Arata had been claimed by McKubre at SRI.


    Miley’s device, does not require an external heat source, relying on the chemical reactions within it to produce the heat energy needed to run the unit. The fuel is ZrO2 (zirconium dioxide) and deuterium pressurized to 413 kilo pascals (60 psi).


    Why do these compounds work as a LENR catalysts?


    http://www.pnnl.gov/science/highlights/highlight.asp?id=803


    Superatoms are clusters of atoms that mimic elements through isoelectric configurations of their valence electrons.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superatom


    Element replacements


    Titanium monoxide (TiO) => nickel


    Zirconium oxide (ZrO) => palladium


    Tungsten carbide(WC) => Platinum


    -----------------------


    Titanium oxide (Melting point1,750 °C (3,180 °F; 2,020 K))


    is a high temperature subsitute for nickel.


    Applications


    Catalyst supports
    Photocatalysts
    Chemical sensors, especially high temperature gas sensors
    Anodes of lithium ion batteries
    Dye-sensitized solar cells (photovoltaic and photocatalytic cells)
    Drug delivery
    Fuel cells
    Biosensors
    Filler for various nanocomposites
    Filler for various adhesives and paints
    Filler for various high performance films


    Synonym


    Titanium oxide tubes, titania nanotubes, titania tubes, titania, titanium dioxide nanotubes, titanium dioxide tubes, titanium dioxide, titanium(IV) oxide nanotubes, titanium(IV) oxide tubes, titanium oxide



  • Proton fusion to produce helium plus gamma radiation is a stellar process happening an infinite number of times in our universe. No need for going off on tangents seeking a strange physics explanation. The process can easly be repeated on a lab tabletop with a nickel compound having an interatomic spacing that forces hydrogen fusion at low temperature.

    The basic problem with tangential diversion is in controlling the automatic diversion by the "e-cat" mentality. The Rossi effect is huge and compounds what is a very simple chemical reaction.

  • Mary,


    I shall take your reply as a tacit admission I pretty much hit the nail on the head. However, it is quite right that this somewhat tangential to the case of Rossi.


    Shame, as I find your pathologies as interesting as those of Rossi.


    Perhaps I should start a "Through the Looking Glass" thread? In order to document the necessary mental contortions required to maintain your belief system, of which interestingly, you seem 100% certain.

    • Official Post

    About the mix and the temperature maybe it is simpler.
    We shoudl re read the Lugano test fuel composition.
    I remember some Iron, and this may lead to "super alloys", which are known to accepts high temperature.


    I don't think any ceramic based on oxide may be used as lithium and hydrogen may reduce it, but thi is to be verified as there is alumina.

  • Of course the reactor mix is the key to hydrogen fusion. The ragoel NiO/Al2O3fiber will initiate fusion at the dissociation temperature of H2. Problem is maintaining temperature control to prevent meltdown.
    Amazing how previous tests (Rossi syndrome) have a strangle hold on getting on with new approaches. Let's forget about the endless rereads of previous reports and get on with something new.

  • Mary,


    I shall take your reply as a tacit admission I pretty much hit the nail on the head.... In order to document the necessary mental contortions required to maintain your belief system, of which interestingly, you seem 100% certain.


    You have to hit yourself on the head a lot to take my reply that way. It's pretty crazy, you know, because I say the opposite. You basically got NOTHING correct. My belief system is simply the scientific method and plain logic plus consideration of past history. As for certain, here is what I am absolutely certain of: Rossi is a crook, or completely insane, or some unholy combination of both. There is no other rational explanation for his actions and his writings on his misnamed and ridiculous blog. That remains true even if by some infinitesimal chance, he has actually discovered anything of value.