Rossi - Cooperation with replicators. Ultimate way to judge credibility.

1st Official Post
    • Official Post

    Now that the patent was granted and since Rossi has emphasized for so long that the past patent rejections were the only reason why he has not said more.


    The following is the ultimate way to judge credibility:


    Nobody has the right to ask Rossi to tell about the optimization of the E-Cat which is his trade secret.


    BUT


    Rossi should now help replicators to get an UNoptimized System working IF he wants to be taken serious. An unoptimized system that is producing a small but(!) undeniable amount of excess heat.


    If he refuses to do this we can finally judge that the E-Cat is a scam. There is no reason to deny this to the replicators from now on.

    • Official Post

    Yes that's it!
    He doesn't owe us something, but he would be a hero in history if he would give some informations to get a tiny, not commercially competitive, but scientifically relevant excess heat reaction!


    I already asked Rossi at his JoNP, but my post is still in moderation:


    What's hilarious is how Rossi perpetually paints himself into a corner with impossible claims and now with a patent which allows full disclosure of the invention-- yet he always seems to wriggle out. THAT is his true genius. Give you something that works? That will be the day. Watch how he wriggles out of this one too.

    Quote from Mary Yugo

    What's hilarious is how Rossi perpetually paints himself into a corner with impossible claims and now with a patent which allows full disclosure of the invention-- yet he always seems to wriggle out. THAT is his true genius. Give you something that works? That will be the day. Watch how he wriggles out of this one too.


    George,
    I would be quite happy just to see you wriggle out from this forum.

    • Official Post
    Quote from barty


    So what does this mean? He will not give some hints to the replicators? They already know everything?


    Hmmm...


    Unfortunately, this is the proof that the E-Cat is not real. I will ignore Andrea Rossi from now on.



    The research and support for LENR has to continue! This is the LENR Forum, not the E-Cat forum! Let us concentrate rather on the work of Holmlid and Olafsson and try to reproduce their findings. Let us think how to build a test reactor capable of producing measurable excess heat based on their setup

    I dont see it strange that Rossi does not want to help us. Patent is granted only for US, rest of the world can still replicate it and sell. Then possibility for his patents is zero there. US is just one piece and this patent still does not cover other modifications that can be done.
    I am sure that Rossi is trying to patent much more parts. Then, one day, there is possibility, maybe, that he will help us.
    But this may be in 10 years.

    • Official Post

    about patent replication on teh opposite to prove his patent is real he have not to help the replicators (publicly), or else the patent office could say there is trade secret involved.


    anyway Rossi is Rossi, business is business, and attorneys are smart...

    • Official Post

    We should wait for the replicators. Bob Greenyer is on to chase some pure lithium for Alan Goldwaters ( @magicsound ) glowstick4 experiment.


    Maybe the lithium and the pre-heated nickle powder is all what was missing yet, and when the replicators consider these two new informations, they may see obvious excess heat :)
    Then it would be clear why Rossi won't help us: We already know everything.

    Quote from me356

    I dont see it strange that Rossi does not want to help us. Patent is granted only for US, rest of the world can still replicate it and sell. Then possibility for his patents is zero there. US is just one piece and this patent still does not cover other modifications that can be done.
    I am sure that Rossi is trying to patent much more parts. Then, one day, there is possibility, maybe, that he will help us.
    But this may be in 10 years.


    There is a possibility that Rossi and his attorneys have already applied for a world patent or in other major countries. A pending patent is a good protection.
    But yes, no one can stop small scale replications and production if the secrets are out. I guess most of the secrets are out anyway. The chances of a replication to work are higher now.

    Rossi almost confirms what I said above:



    ==========================
    Andrea Rossi | 8 hours ago
    Hank Mills:
    Your questions are related to further patent applications we are working upon related to the upgrade of the technology.
    Every patent is part of the global IP of our concern and, while the
    patent disclosures have to be elaborated by means of an immense work
    with our attorneys, such work is continuing for many other issues that
    will be disclosed in the next patent applications.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.
    =============================
    John:
    This patent is part of the IP and many other patent applications are incoming. I am working on 64 patent applications right now.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    Ideally Rossi should share his discovery and help others to reproduce the results. But practically, I do not see how that will be possible since he has taken the path of an entrepreneur and wants to set up a profit oriented business. His philosophy about what he has invented is totally different. A scientist would of course like to share his/her discoveries while asking for no material gain, but Rossi is not in academia or a man who works for a gov or publicly funded R&D org. He will make sure that he and stakeholders benefit maximally.


    If you think from a capitalist point of view, this is not wrong. Capitalism actually promotes such attitude. The question, why he is not sharing it with the world for free comes from a non-capitalist point of view. Practically, nothing moves without money, so we are lucky that he focuses on commercialization. If he shares everything,(with no NDAs etc), no one will like to invest or get involved in manufacturing and selling the E-cat based products, there will be no profit. It may delay the introduction of E-cat into free market significantly. We cannot ask him to share anything, but we can take whatever he offers, which is a commercial product, which is better than nothing.


    If you compare the amount of technical information available publicly about any lenr devices which are claimed as real and working, E-cat comes on the top. I've seen no other lenr device about which sufficient info is available in order to replicate it. So others are in a worse situation as far as sharing of knowledge is concerned. That's why we see so many attempts of replication of E-cat , but almost none for any other type. Rossi's earlier hints, the Lugano report and now the patent has provided a lot of information. We still accuse him of hiding things that are beneficial to humanity. Perhaps we need to have patience and work harder to utilize the information he has already provided. We may get more clues in coming days, as the E-cat gets ready for mass production.

    • Official Post
    Quote from Tarun

    Ideally Rossi should share his discovery and help others to reproduce the results. But practically, I do not see how that will be possible since he has taken the path of an entrepreneur and wants to set up a profit oriented business. His philosophy about what he has invented is totally different. A scientist would of course like to share his/her discoveries while asking for no material gain, but Rossi is not in academia or a man who works for a gov or publicly funded R&D org. He will make sure that he and stakeholders benefit maximally.


    If you think from a capitalist point of view, this is not wrong. Capitalism actually promotes such attitude. The question, why he is not sharing it with the world for free comes from a non-capitalist point of view. Practically, nothing moves without money, so we are lucky that he focuses on commercialization. If he shares everything,(with no NDAs etc), no one will like to invest or get involved in manufacturing and selling the E-cat based products, there will be no profit. It may delay the introduction of E-cat into free market significantly. We cannot ask him to share anything, but we can take whatever he offers, which is a commercial product, which is better than nothing.


    If you compare the amount of technical information available publicly about any lenr devices which are claimed as real and working, E-cat comes on the top. I've seen no other lenr device about which sufficient info is available in order to replicate it. So others are in a worse situation as far as sharing of knowledge is concerned. That's why we see so many attempts of replication of E-cat , but almost none for any other type. Rossi's earlier hints, the Lugano report and now the patent has provided a lot of information. We still accuse him of hiding things that are beneficial to humanity. Perhaps we need to have patience and work harder to utilize the information he has already provided. We may get more clues in coming days, as the E-cat gets ready for mass production.


    Rossi should consider himself fortunate to have you as his mouthpiece.


    However, none of these words will change my conclusion.


    I will start to work on a heat measurement setup based on the decidable experiment of Olafsson and Holmlid, together with the local FabLab.


    All reproduction attempts should focus on the work of Holmlid and Olafson now, which is the only work that can be considered scientific, because it is decidable. Decidable in the way, that we can experimentally judge if it's claims are right or wrong, because all of it's parameters were provided.

    My opinion is that a patent is one of the worst thing that was ever invented.


    Patenting something as LENR can only destroy it so in reality it couldn't get to normal customers.
    If you are patenting something you are looking just for money.

    Quote

    I dont see it strange that Rossi does not want to help us. Patent is granted only for US, rest of the world can still replicate it and sell. Then possibility for his patents is zero there. US is just one piece and this patent still does not cover other modifications that can be done.I am sure that Rossi is trying to patent much more parts. Then, one day, there is possibility, maybe, that he will help us.But this may be in 10 years.


    I have read many claims like this one -- Rossi can't give details because the ecat will be widely copied. What do you think will happen when he actually sells one (even just one) to anyone other than the fictitious clients he's claimed so far? What's to stop anyone from dismantling, analyzing, and reverse engineering the device and the fuel? No. Patent protection would be the ONLY way to protect such a significant invention. If it existed, which clearly it doesn't.

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