[feedquote='E-Cat World','http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/10/29/what-if-the-1-year-ecat-test-succeeds-and-no-one-believes-it-catinhat/']The following post was submitted by CatInHat The Ecat is chugging away towards a hopefully successful 1 year test of the technology in a real-world installation. But it occurs to me — what if the test succeeds but no one believes it? After all, one of the dominant reasons that the Lugano test was discredited […][/feedquote]
What if the 1 year E-Cat Test Succeeds . . . and No One Believes it? (CatInHat)
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http://www.dieselserviceandsup…sel_Fuel_Consumption.aspx
Here one sees that "packing in oil" would be 71 gallons per hour at full load for 1000 kw (1 Mw). It sounds high to me, but even some fraction of that would be difficult to pack in. Further running a diesel or gas turbine should have been quite obvious for exhaust and noise. I suppose a secret supply of propane or CNG and a large fuel cell array could make the fake work. The waste heat may be substantial and the issue of waste heat likely applies to "E-cats" as well. I recall that has been one of the points of argument for Mary/George/Yugo/Hody... and perhaps one of her/his/its most credible contra Rossi to date, since it is ostensibly fact-based rather than character assassination (ad hominem) based.
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My first prediction is that it will happen, at least in media and academic circles.
Note that Finance is slowly integrating LENR. They are less deluded. -
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Yes George fits this image profile.
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Replying to "Mary Yugo" above:
No, I'm not addressing any skeptic theory. But in the event of a "success": What are the critiques that likely will be mounted?
[I mentioned recalling--- perhaps incorrectly attributed--- that you once pointed out the unusual lack of waste heat from such a 1 MW plant.]
There are surely several arguments contra Rossi that will come up, particularly if he is not forthcoming with detailed evidence.
On one extreme he could be accused of generating electricity or heat by simply burning fuel in a motor generator set, such as diesel or propane (noisy, exhaust gases). Or he might be accused of having a fuel cell that was surreptitiously oxidizing natural gas or propane.
But I guess we should recall that his contract is to supply "heat" to his customer. So that could simply be provided by a heat pump, which can easily produce several times the heat represented by the watt hours of electrical consumption driving the heat pump compressor and associated refrigerant circulation. Using the usual online source of "information" I see this:
In heating mode, heat pumps are three to four times more efficient in their use of electric power than simple electrical resistance heaters.With such a setup, Rossi could claim a COP of 3 to 4 using completely conventional technology with no LENR at all. However, it would be surprising if the "customer" has not already long used heat pumps to supply their needs, particularly in Florida with its 9 months of warm ambient temperatures.
A completely silent form of heat pump would be simple Peltier effect devices. I believe Rossi has already used such thermoelectric devices in earlier industrial ventures. However their efficiency would not be nearly as impressive. In this application to make a good "1 MW plant", the COP relative to straight resistance heating is likely to be around 1.2 (I base this on comparative efficiency with compressor-based heat pumps).
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Note that heat-pump COP is reduced with temperature difference.
a COP of 3 is a huge achievement for high temperature, even just boiling water.
COPheating=Thot/DeltaT
eg: boiling water with a a heatpump, with water cooling, cannot be done at better than COP=3.73 at 1athmosphere...Anyway back to the question of denial, it is very common in arguments agains cold fusion to have similar "blanket" arguments, that when you dig don't work at all because the number don't add.
"it is chemical" , and the you see that not only there is no reasonable reaction to expect, that calibration don't show this reaction, but simply taht heat is too big.
"it is contamination", the you see it is corelated with heat (helium), or the curve is so erratic that it is a reaction not contamination (tritium), or that it does not happen with some samples (the magic balance of iwamura)...
the skeptics are never skeptical on their own theories. they throw absurd theories, and say "prove we are wrong"... we prove it , and the "say we don't need to answer you, you have to prove"...
this is what I call playing chess like a pigeon.I exchanged with some pigeon about LENr recently, and when he says that there is no peer reviewed papers, just anecdotal evidences... he plays chess like a pigeon.
You cannot answer to someone who state that sun is blue, and refuse spectrometry as evidence.When LENR will start to convince some informed people, like it is happening, the top academic media and others pigeon will invoke , like today, reason not to believe not to be sure, with vague blanket arguments, with vague conspiracy theories ...
Finally they will surrender when their funding source will change position, and they will say "I told you so, now they have good evidence, it is new. before we were right to be skeptical because they had no evidence". -
Well, to start with, you are making the assumption that there really is a customer, that Rossi's "plant" really makes a net positive output of energy and that Rossi really will give valid test results in the next few months. Good luck with ANY of that.
Rossi doesn't NEED to use a fake source of input power. He has this: http://andrea-rossi.com/1mw-pl…xec1olem2kk3m7tictapmf1bn ! The mains, that huge power supply, is where any energy provided by his "plant" comes from. All Rossi needs to do is to fake the measurement of input and output power which is what he has done each and every time there has been a test with public results.
Rossi "used thermoelectric devices in earlier ventures"? No he most emphatically did not. The only thing he did was to persuade CERL/DOD to spend millions of dollars based on a supposed high efficiency thermoelectric converter supposedly tested at the University of New Hampshire. However, there is no evidence whatever that this prototype ever worked and in the end, Rossi delivered to DOD a pile of junk -- 27 converters most of which were open circuit or short circuit and none which worked even as well as available commercial devices of the day. This junk which Rossi gave DOD apparently was made from surplus and reject part which a San Diego company bought in Russia. See Gary Wright's pages for documentation -- way more documentation than needed. If you like, you can confirm with the San Diego company -- its name is included in Gary's reports.
Is Rossi using a heat pump to bamboozle a customer? It's possible but first, is there even a real customer? There was supposed to be one in November 2011 but aside from the mysterious "NATO colonel" (whatever that is), no customer has ever been heard from 4 years later. If you forget a scammer's history, they will use the same or a similar scam again!
Let me know if you need the links for the thermoelectric fiasco.
This was amusing:
QuoteI exchanged with some pigeon about LENr recently, and when he says that there is no peer reviewed papers, just anecdotal evidences... he plays chess like a pigeon.You cannot answer to someone who state that sun is blue, and refuse spectrometry as evidence.
Maybe someone can translate it into comprehensible Engrish?
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"Maybe someone can translate it into comprehensible Engrish? "
Never argue with a pig.
I doesn't do any good and it only annoys the pig. -
about my engrish, I don't see the grammatical error except LEN(r)
What you seems not to understand is that you state wrong fact as if their were true, and from that we cannot convince you.
If someone start by saying there is no peer reviewed papers on LENR, this is the end of logic.
It is pigeon chess... the Pigeon sit on the chessboard, push your king and say he won...
If you argue he just state you don't know how to play chess. -
I don't know of anyone who says there are no peer reviewed papers on LENR. Do you? Do your pigeons speak?
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George the saboteur at work on this Forum. Now we're off on defecating pigeons.
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My current pigeon is Asterix(must be French).
Sorry to say Mary that you are above average, by your competence and the facts you don't deny.
Most skeptics finally state that there is no peer reviewed papers or none valuable, or none positive written by someone who did not have positive result and thus cannot be trusted, and finally that there are result but that it means nothing worth, to finally ask for a 1GW evidence.This emotional statement is just fruit of general feeling after trying to argue with most skeptics.
Mary, you are better at focussing on a detail, that you generalize out of it's context , ignoring dozens of countrary evidences. Or proposing an improbable theory that you claim not impossible concluding it is a certainty.
This is typically your tactics on Rossi. You are smarter than a pigeon, rather an attorney. -
Alain, I know you don't believe me when I said Rossi never had a thermoelectric device tested by the University of New Hampshire, so here is my challenge to you: find me evidence of such a test *other* than something Rossi or one of his Leonardo colleagues wrote or said. Ideally, find the name of who tested it and their description of the test. But find anything at all. Good luck! Such a test, of a thermoelectric device, 10x or more efficient than conventional ones, would be so valuable, it would be unlikely to be buried or misplaced. So if it exists, where is it? What is it? I maintain it never happened and is entirely Rossifiction.
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Guess one must track down the Parsons study.
"As part of a Department of Energy project titled, “Assessment of Efficiency Increases and Economics of Application of
Thermoelectric Apparatus in Fossil Power Plants” (Task DE-AT01-98FE65489, TD No. 15), a small prototype TE Device manufactured by Dr. Andre Rossi was tested at the University of New Hampshire in 2000. This TE Device demonstrated significant power generation (100 watts continuous) and a thermal to electrical conversion efficiency of 16 percent. These results could not be duplicated during this effort. LTI is continuing research and development work to achieve the TE Device level of operation demonstrated in the Parsons study. "- Application of Thermoelectric Devices to Fuel Cell Power Generation Demonstration and Evaluation
John Huston, Chris Wyatt, Chris Nichols, Michael J. Binder, and Franklin H. Holcomb
September 2004, pp. 42 -
Guess one must track down the Parsons study..…
Mary's messiah Gary Wright has a copy, according to His awfully designed website. He got it as part of a freedom of information request. For some reason He refuses to publish it. Perhaps due to mankind's original sin.You are smarter than a pigeon, rather an attorney.
Perhaps 'savant' is a better description. -
Mary, this is exactly what I explain.
You notice something strange with the difficulties to replicate the anisotropic structure used for his TEG.This can raise alarms...Then you conclude it is sure, then you ignore all others evidence about Tests, about investments, about witnesses...
and you only keep few cherry-picked interesting facts raising the possibility of fraud among other interpretations.
This is typical of conspiracy theories.even using only the cherry picked evidence, your theory are far from proven, just possible.
I prefer peer reviewed papers, replications, opinion of first hand witness, like the one of Us Army, essen, Levi, Hoistad, harman, Darden, ...
Your problem is you take you dreams as a reality.
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Quote
"As part of a Department of Energy project titled, “Assessment of Efficiency Increases and Economics of Application ofThermoelectric Apparatus in Fossil Power Plants” (Task DE-AT01-98FE65489, TD No. 15), a small prototype TE Device manufactured by Dr. Andre Rossi was tested at the University of New Hampshire in 2000. This TE Device demonstrated significant power generation (100 watts continuous) and a thermal to electrical conversion efficiency of 16 percent. These results could not be duplicated during this effort. LTI is continuing research and development work to achieve the TE Device level of operation demonstrated in the Parsons study. "
But none of this a true. If it is, where is this famous LTI research more than 10 years later? Any idea how much money a high efficiency thermoelectric converter would be worth? Nobody would drop it if it had ever been real.
Actually, I tried to track down studies by Parsons. Parsons is an R&D company. I searched Google using the project number and the name. It was a while back but IIRC I found several papers and all relied on Rossi or LTI (Rossi's company) for the high efficiency results purportedly from the University of New Hampshire. That was nothing at all about any actual research or measurements made by Parsons and none from the university. Please do try to find the paper showing proof of the high efficiency thermoelectric devices of Andrea Rossi. I would love to discuss that evidence with the authors -- if anyone can find it. I couldn't and I don't think it exists.
As to what Gary Wright says he has and supposedly won't show, I have no idea. And I don't know him outside of his web site and a couple of emails so he isn't a "friend". If he got something through FOIA, you can too.
@Alain: The problem with Rossi's claim is not only that it couldn't be replicated. That certainly raises red flags. But the main issue, before that, is that there is nothing to show that any device from Rossi was ever tested at U of NH. If you have contrary evidence, either in a peer reviewed paper (which you say you prefer) or directly from a U of NH professor, WHERE IS IT, ALAIN? I asked you (and everyone) for such evidence many times before and I got nothing back except the noise of crickets in the silent night. As to the thermoelectric devices, you mention tests. WHAT TESTS? WHERE? Did you read the CERL/DOD paper? There is nothing in it which says the investigators from DOD ever saw a working high efficiency device. If you disagree, show me where they tested such a device. Instead, they received non working junk from Rossi. For more than 2 million dollars, they got 27 pieces of trash. THAT is what their own report says.
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Incidentally, Rossi is a consistent liar. In the current JONP, there is this:
QuoteJCRenoir
October 30th, 2015 at 10:13 AM
Dr Rossi:
How much would you bet on the fact that the E-Cat will enter in the stage of massive production?QuoteAndrea Rossi
October 30th, 2015 at 3:13 PM
JC Renoir:
I already bet all the money I have.Really? I suppose those condominiums in Florida (more than a dozen bought by Rossi and a matter of public records) are a mirage? And what about the millions from [lexicon]IH[/lexicon] investors and the Woodford funds?
Warm Regards,
A.R. -
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like the one of Us Army, essen, Levi, Hoistad, harman, Darden, ...
Oh, one more thing Alain. You mention the US Army. When did they ever see or test anything from Rossi? Evidence please, direct from the Army. Darden didn't publish any tests. Essen and the others are incompetent and won't answer reasonable and polite questions about their work. And who is "harman"?
