Open Power Association: Patent Application for external Neutron Source LENR

    • Official Post

    Hello frends
    Today I have had contact with @ugo.abundo and thay have news from open power.
    We can use this thread for questions to Ugo about this.


    Quote

    On January 19, 2016 we have filed an Italian Patent Application, as dealed with in our report 020, accessible from homepage on our www.hydrobetatron.org:

    http://www.hydrobetatron.org/files/Report-020ENG_Pubb.pdf

    about



  • I am sure that they have a working prototype. As I propesed few months ago, neutron generation + neutron capture process must work.
    Initial source of neutrons is just external, so they do not have to deal with hydrogen loading process anymore.

    • Official Post

    So they trigger the reaction with an external neutron source, and after startup the reaction is running self sustaining (with the "self emitted neutrons")?


    Why don't they communicate their approach and findings? What is the "open" about then... :censored:


    I guess getting a neutron gun isn't that easy as a "hobby scientist"?

  • Very interesting. I hope they can demonstrate a working device soon. Would be interesting to know what powers (heat and electricity) can be produced with it. This will put more pressure on Andrea Rossi, I am sure. That is a good development.

  • Neutron source is a kind of a driving power. So you can drive the reaction somehow. It is used for activating the fuel by Neutron activation process.
    So DD fusion or other neutron sources are simply replaced. In this way, you do not need any magic stimulations used in Ni-H or other systems.

  • This depends on the efficiency of neutron activation. But at least neutron flux from the neutron gun can be decreased when it is running.
    I believe that it could produce radioactive waste if neutrons can escape. And I believe that it could happen even with Ni-H system (according to Rossi it already happened).
    So you have to know what are limitations, else the consequences could be bad.
    Limitations of nuclear energy are far beyond current LENR experiments.


    It is not that hard to build neutron generator. It can be tiny device in 2x2cm area. Actually we are trying to build such devices for long time with e.g. Parkhomov replication. But neutron flux is so small or is not present, that we are not able to measure it.

  • It sounds as if you are talking about a self propagating fusion reaction here. To initiate such a reaction you really need to use the big hammer. This hammer can be 192 lasers firing in unison (NIF) or a hydrogen bomb where the hammer is a fission bomb. These are two examples of inertial confinement, true hit and run jobs.


    When you google “fusion chain reaction” you will also discover the “proton-proton chain reaction”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…0%93proton_chain_reaction


    This is not what we usually mean with a chain reaction, it does not multiply exponentially like a fission chain reaction. This is a good thing because the furnace that keeps our sun warm relies partly on this energy source, so slow is good. The recipe for this reaction is high pressure and high temperature in order to overcome the old faithful Coulomb barrier, but just barely.


    In this article we also rediscover the pretty cherry tree that axil cloned into one of the threads here. Obviously this tree cannot grow in the LENR orchard.

  • The recipe for this reaction [the proton-proton chain] is high pressure and high temperature in order to overcome the old faithful Coulomb barrier, but just barely.


    The proton-proton chain isn't rate-limited by the Coulomb barrier. It depends upon a very occasional weak interaction, where the diproton, during the brief moment of its existence, has a non-negligible probability of decaying to a deuteron. So there are two reactions proceeding in tandem:

    • p + p → [pp]* + γ
    • [pp]* → d + e+ + ν

    While (1) is common, (2) is rare, so deuterium is produced very slowly.

  • Eric, try to convince me that your reaction 1 does not care about the Coulomb barrier.
    No chain is faster than its slowest link!

  • No chain is faster than its slowest link!


    We agree in part. I'm saying my step 2, above, involving the beta-plus decay, is the slowest link:


    Quote

    This first step [of the proton-proton chain] is extremely slow because the beta-plus decay of the diproton to deuterium has a negative Q value and so is extremely rare (the vast majority of the time, the diproton decays back into hydrogen-1 through proton emission).


    The Coulomb barrier is not what is slowing down this process; it's the endothermic beta-plus decay that is also required that is doing the rate-limiting.

  • Eric, you seem to be quite confident that: "The proton-proton chain isn't rate-limited by the Coulomb barrier."


    Then I think you should do a good deed and correct Wikipedia:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…0%93proton_chain_reaction


    Quote

    In general, proton–proton fusion can occur only if the kinetic energy (i.e. temperature) of the protons is high enough to overcome their mutual electrostatic or Coulomb repulsion.

  • Branzell, it seems you think I'm disagreeing that the Coulomb barrier must be overcome. It's a little difficult to see how someone could read this into my statements. I'm saying that the probability of a diproton forming despite mutual Coulomb repulsion is P1, and that the probability of beta-plus decay happening is P2, and that P2 << P1.

    • Official Post

    This patent is really not like what we usually see in LENR.
    I don't understand the final application, but why not.


    About "Open", note that to allow Open Patent, Open IP, Free/Open Software, it is essential to protect it with IP (patent, copyright, Trade Secret), so you can share it with who it want , typically anyone who play the rules, and more than that to block pirates to hijack the freedom by derivating the subject of the open license.


    You can only enforce a free license if you own the subject.

    • There are a number of inconsistencies in there nuclear equations.
    • The input energy free neutron sources they are proposing are not rate controllable other than with shielding.
    • I suspect there is no functional device of any use as the last thing they say is "We hope soon more researchers will furtherly develop the exposed ideas"
    • I suspect this is a stab in the dark at the obtuse output from Rossi.

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