Goddam water, just keeps evaporating when it shouldn't.
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Goddam water, just keeps evaporating when it shouldn't.
It was made to believe that it was still evaporating when it couldn't anymore, because it had already evaporated.
Goddam videos.
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Premeditated and postmeditated boiloff
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Looks like it was a premeditated and postmeditated boiloff.
It is triggered with a heat pulse after excess heat begins.
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Goddam water, just keeps evaporating when it shouldn't.
Yes. With this much input power it should not be boiling, and when the input falls to zero it should definitely stop. That is what happens with the control runs. That is the whole point.
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Premeditated and postmeditated boiloff
The boil-off was more simply expected.
Since 1985, F&P have had the opportunity to run hundreds of similar run, so they knew what would have happened. In 2009, Krivit reported this experimental confidence in this way (1): "By 1993, Fleischmann and Pons had developed such control of their experiments, particularly the cathode material, that they had the confidence and ability to set up a row of four cells side by side and initiate anomalous-heat reactions on all four at will."
So, they started the experiment on April 11, 1992, knowing that in a few weeks each one of the 4 cell under testing would have reached the boil-off phase, as they had experienced in the past also in their blank tests, as documented by Hansen in 1991 (2).
The reaching of boiling condition does not require any triggering with heat pulses. The cause of this behavior of the F&P open cells was explained by Morrison in 1993:
From: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Fleischmanreplytothe.pdf
Secondly, it may be noted in fig. 8 of ref 1, that the cell voltage rises as the temperature rises and that as 100 C is approached, the voltage rises more and more steeply. Experience by the GE group [6] was that in operating similar open cells over many hours, they also noticed a rise in cell voltage with time. They attributed this effect as being due to some of the escaping gases carrying some Lithium with them. As the level of the electrolyte is maintained by adding fresh D2O (but not any lithium salt), the concentration of lithium in the electrolyte decreases with time and the voltage rises. This was proved by atomic absorption analysis, that the cell resistance had risen (causing higher voltage due to the constant current mode operation) due to loss of lithium which was caused by sputtering of electrolyte droplets up the gas outlet tube. This may be considered confirmation that even at moderate temperatures, the outlet stream contains liquids as well as gases as discussed for stage three when the temperature was much higher and the boiling much more vigorous. It may be concluded that claims of excess enthalpy in stage two have not been established.
[6]. General Electric group of ref. 4. priv. comm.
What you have underlined in red is very important for other reasons. First, because F&P stated that they have accurately examined the videotape recording. Second, because they included in their paper to ICCF3 (3) the video stills of the boiling phase of Cells 1 and 4, but, strangely, not the video still of Cell 2, the only one that was claimed to have undergone a HAD event.
(1) http://newenergytimes.com/v2/l…ivit-S-ANewLookAtLENR.pdf
(2) http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/HansenWNreporttoth.pdf
(3) http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Fleischmancalorimetra.pdf
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This was proved by atomic absorption analysis, that the cell resistance had risen (causing higher voltage due to the constant current mode operation) due to loss of lithium which was caused by sputtering of electrolyte droplets up the gas outlet tube...
....Where the lithium-bearing droplets condensed and dried, leaving the lithium deuteroxide inside the evaporation tube as a thin film.
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....Where the lithium-bearing droplets condensed and dried, leaving the lithium deuteroxide inside the evaporation tube as a thin film.
I don't think so. Leaving aside that I don't understand how a liquid droplet can condense and dry, the images (pictures and drawings) show that the vent pipes of the F&P's open cells were short and straight, so it's very likely that the droplets entrained in the electrolyses gas flowing through these vents may have escaped the cell.
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Foam vs water the last 10 minutes:
The debate Ascoli started by trying to analyse some fuzzy pictures in the F&P paper and suggest some serious error by F&P in water level measurments is not a feasible error:
If, as Ascoli believes, the tube was mostly foam filled and not 50% water at the start of the last 10 minutes in the F&P paper, i.e. No excess heat caused by LENR, it would mean that the actual water level would have to be very low;
Firstly Fleischmann did a thorough investigation in identifying the heat transfer coefficient to the surroundings. So his calculation of the losses the last 10 minutes is most likely very accurate at reported 6700 joules.
We also know the electrical input energy the last 10 minutes at 22500 joules is accurate at +/- 0,22%
This means 15800 Jôule went to produce steam. Boiling of heavy water requires some 2073 Jôule/gram of water.
So, if there where no excess heat generated at all, the water volume at the beginning of the last 10 minutes would be 7,6 grams, or less than 10% of the original 5 mole test tube volume.
So the suggestion that F&P in the hundreds of tests during the 80's and 90's read off wrong water level, like 50% when the actual level was less than 10% is Absolutely nonsens.
F&P also had many "live" cells that did not produce excess heat in addition to control cells, which means they where able to see the differences when the video tapes where fresh.
And again, several third party confirmation leads to the easy conclusion that nature tell us something that requires further investigation.
"I feel like the visitor looking at the giraffe and concluding, "there ain't no such animal." " - Edward Teller on Cold Fusion (1992) 🤓
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I feel like the visitor looking at the giraffe
It's not real ... it's just a foam giraffe
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Foam vs water the last 10 minutes:
First of all, can you tell me where the 10 minutes come from?
QuoteIf, as Ascoli believes, the tube was mostly foam filled and not 50% water at the start of the last 10 minutes in the F&P paper, i.e. No excess heat caused by LENR, it would mean that the actual water level would have to be very low;
Yes, very very low, less than 1 cm, judging on the basis of the first blue arrow, which - in the boil-off phase of each cell - appears in the explanatory "Four-cell boil-off" video (1).
QuoteFirstly Fleischmann did a thorough investigation in identifying the heat transfer coefficient to the surroundings. So his calculation of the losses the last 10 minutes is most likely very accurate at reported 6700 joules.
The accuracy in the calculation of the heat transfer coefficient, reported in the first part of F&P paper (2), is only apparent. You can't calculate a single value for a coefficient that should be applied to the entire temperature range, especially if this coefficient is multiplied by the fourth power of the temperature. It is a total nonsense.
Anyway, inverting the relationship shown on page 16, we obtain k'R=9.09 x 10-9 WK-4. Can you find this specific value in the plethora of k values reported in the previous 15 pages?
QuoteWe also know the electrical input energy the last 10 minutes at 22500 joules is accurate at +/- 0,22%
That accuracy was calculated by you, making some confusion with the numerical accuracy. Actually, you can't assess the accuracy of the electrical input energy because you don't know all the values involved in the first equation of page 16. In fact the value of Ecell is not specified.
Well, inverting the relationship, assuming that the current remains constant at 0.5 A and adding the time length of 600 s - that F&P forgot to include in the formula - we get a value of Ecell=76.54 V (=75 + 1.54). But the F&P paper (2) don't say where this value comes from, so we can't know its accuracy and, consequently, establish the accuracy of the electrical input energy.
QuoteSo, if there where no excess heat generated at all, the water volume at the beginning of the last 10 minutes would be 7,6 grams, or less than 10% of the original 5 mole test tube volume.
No wonder, as already said, the initial water level was even lower. All the rest was already foam.
QuoteSo the suggestion that F&P in the hundreds of tests during the 80's and 90's read off wrong water level, like 50% when the actual level was less than 10% is Absolutely nonsens.
It could be that the real absolute nonsense is that F&P have been trusted by so many people for nearly 30 years. But, this is an argument worth to be discussed only when will be reached a larger agreement on what happened in the four-cell experiment. Let us stick on the 1992 paper (2) for the moment.
QuoteF&P also had many "live" cells that did not produce excess heat in addition to control cells, which means they where able to see the differences when the video tapes where fresh.
Let me give you an advice. Base your opinion on your eyes, rather than on F&P's says.
QuoteAnd again, several third party confirmation leads to the easy conclusion that nature tell us something that requires further investigation.
The only experimenter, that is considered to have been successful in replicating the F&P boil-off test was Lonchampt. As already said (3), his paper deserves a more thorough examination, but the original has the priority.
Quote"I feel like the visitor looking at the giraffe and concluding, "there ain't no such animal." " - Edward Teller on Cold Fusion (1992)
Well, don't behave like that visitor. Look more carefully at the video and you will conclude that, at the beginning of its boil-off phase, each cell was full of foam.
(1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBAIIZU6Oj8
(2) http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Fleischmancalorimetra.pdf
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Ascoli:
"The only experimenter, that is considered to have been successful in replicating the F&P boil-off test was Lonchampt."
Really? I mean - REALLY?
Until 2009 there was 152 Peer-Reviewed papers with successful Excess Heat Events.
After 2009 there number has grown further.
See if you can a find a "few" more than Lonchampt below
“We have been skeptical about this [discovery] for five years” - M. Fleischmann 23.March 1989
List 2. Peer-reviewed excess heat papers, from both databases
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Technol., 2000. 38: p. 224.
2. Aoki, T., et al., Search for nuclear products of the D + D nuclear fusion. Int. J. Soc. Mat.
Eng. Resources, 1998. 6(1): p. 22.
3. Arata, Y. and Y.C. Zhang, Achievement of intense 'cold fusion' reaction. Kaku Yugo
Kenkyu, 1989. 62: p. 398 (In Japanese).
4. Arata, Y. and Y.C. Zhang, Achievement of an intense cold fusion reaction. Fusion
Technol., 1990. 18: p. 95.
5. Arata, Y. and Y.C. Zhang, Achievement of intense 'cold' fusion reaction. Proc. Jpn. Acad.,
Ser. B, 1990. 66: p. 1.
6. Arata, Y. and Y.C. Zhang, Corroborating evidence for 'cold' fusion reaction. Proc. Jpn.
Acad., Ser. B, 1990. 66(B): p. 110.
7. Arata, Y. and Y.C. Zhang, 'Cold' fusion caused by a weak 'on-off effect'. Proc. Jpn. Acad.,
Ser. B, 1992. 66: p. 33.
8. Arata, Y. and Y.C. Zhang, 'Cold' fusion in deuterated complex cathode. Kaku Yugo
Kenkyu, 1992. 67((5)): p. 432 (in Japanese).
9. Arata, Y. and Y.C. Zhang, Reproducible "Cold" Fusion Reaction Using A Complex
Cathode. Fusion Technol., 1992. 22: p. 287.
10. Arata, Y. and Y.C. Zhang, Excess heat in a double structure deuterated cathode. Kaku
Yugo Kenkyu, 1993. 69((8)): p. 963 (in Japanese).
11. Arata, Y. and Y.C. Zhang, A new energy caused by "Spillover-deuterium". Proc. Jpn.
Acad., Ser. B, 1994. 70 ser. B: p. 106.
12. Arata, Y. and Y.C. Zhang, A new energy generated in DS-cathode with 'Pd-black'. Koon
Gakkaishi, 1994. 20(4): p. 148 (in Japanese).
13. Arata, Y. and Y.C. Zhang, Achievement of solid-state plasma fusion ("cold fusion").
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14. Arata, Y. and Y.C. Zhang, Deuterium nuclear reaction process within solid. Proc. Jpn.
Acad., Ser. B, 1996. 72 Ser. B: p. 179.
15. Arata, Y. and C. Zhang, Presence of helium (4/2He, 3/2He) confirmed in highly
deuterated Pd-black by the new detecting methodology. J. High Temp. Soc., 1997. 23: p.
110 (in Japanese).
16. Arata, Y. and Y.C. Zhang, Solid-state plasma fusion ('cold fusion'). J. High Temp. Soc.,
1997. 23 (special volume): p. 1-56.
17. Arata, Y. and Y.C. Zhang, Observation of Anomalous Heat Release and Helium-4
Production from Highly Deuterated Fine Particles. Jpn. J. Appl. Phys. Part 2, 1999. 38: p.
L774.
18. Arata, Y. and Y.C. Zhang, Formation of Condensed Metallic Deuterium Lattice and
Nuclear Fusion. Proc. Jpn. Acad., Ser. B, 2002. 78(Ser. B): p. 57.
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Dear Oystla,
A word of advice. Ascoli is quite precise in what he is saying. You do yourself, and your cause (if you consider showing F&P's paper to be good science your cause) no favours by replying away from the point.
"The only experimenter, that is considered to have been successful in replicating the F&P boil-off test was Lonchampt."
Really? I mean - REALLY?
Until 2009 there was 152 Peer-Reviewed papers with successful Excess Heat Events.
That is a non-sequitur. Ascoli is considering one aspect of the historically significant paper quoted by many here, and has shown in much more detail than I've seen before some issues in the calculation of open cell boil-off enthalpy therein. He is then addressing the matter of whether that phase of the experiment, with very large positive claimed results, has been replicated elsewhere. Other than Longchampt none of those papers are an F&P boil-off replication, or anything like.
Please direct your arguments towards his criticism of F&P boil-off.
Personally I find it somewhat cult-like that the flakiest part of a very badly documented (and, if Ascoli's arguments are correct, wrongly analysed) experiment should be defended with such tenacity, rather than, as scientists do, admit that the same stuff has been done with better documentation and under more controlled conditions by others, e.g. Mckubre.
The lack of precise documentation of results in the F&P paper would make its contents of limited value even were there not question marks raised over its accuracy.
THH
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Personally I find it somewhat cult-like
Are you saying that Oystia is a member of a cult? THH? There are sociolinguistic connotations of "cult-like".
"A word of advice. . You do yourself, and your cause ...no favours by replying away from the point."
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Acoli:
"Anyway, inverting the relationship shown on page 16, we obtain k'R=9.09 x 10-9 WK-4. Can you find this specific value in the plethora of k values reported in the previous 15 pages?"
OK, Try to invert the relationship one more time and see if you get another number
HINT: You are close, but not close
And then you may look for the K value in the paper.....and find it....as I did
You see, very few chemists where better in math than Fleischmann
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Dear Huxley,
Ascoli put forward a bold claim as I referred to…
And I asked him “between the lines” if he really-really-REALLY where sure on his bold claim 😉
You mean I should rather be Ascoli’s secretary and point to the other specific peer reviewed papers that showed heat burst events similar to F&P heat events?
You mean he is excused from doing his own research into the matter?
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Ascoli:
You keep bringing on "blue arrows" as if related to the paper.
I see no blue arrows in the paper, or in the video linked in the paper.
So let's forget about blue arrows and move on.
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Ascoli:
"That accuracy was calculated by you, making some confusion with the numerical accuracy"
Well, as have been said by people knowing him: Few chemists in the world where better in math than Fleischmann.
i.e. when F&P stated approximately 22500 Joule, it means mathematically somewhere in the range 22451 to 22549 Joule.
And therefore we also now the accuracy.
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k'R=9.09 x 10-9 WK-4.
I cheated... I used a calculator... not a slide rule.
9.09(3 sf) x 10(-10) compared with
9.09 x10(-9)
Maybe Fleischmann was in error by a factor of 10??? Ascoli?
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