Rossi effect and apparatus to produce heat with high efficiency

  • It looks like a european patent application for Rossi's Fluid Heater patent was recently published. The Documents tab in that page contains a link to a provisional US patent application describing what the "Rossi effect" is.


    https://patentscope.wipo.int/s…621/PDOC/WO2016018851.pdf


    Relevant excerpt:



    In the european patent application there are a few new paragraphs compared to the USPTO version which refer to this provisional patent application.


    Quote

    In one embodiment, the reagents are placed in the reaction chamber at a pressure of 3-6 bar and a temperature of from 400 C to 600 C. An anode is placed at one side of the reactor and a cathode is placed at the other side of the reactor. This accelerates electrons between them to an extent sufficient to have very high energy, in excess of 100 KeV. Regulation of the electron energy can be carried out by regulating the electric field between the cathode and the anode .


    Quote

    It should be noted that other heating sources can be used, including heat sources that rely on combustion of, for example, natural gas, as well as heat sources that rely on electrical induction. The use of gas thus avoids the need to have a source of electrical energy for initiating the reaction.

  • This patent application is nothing more then cold steam out of a vapor brain. I guess Rossi heard a rumor, that somebody else managed to reproduce a NiLiH4 stop and go process, which is far more valuable than an endless Rossi heater. He just threw in a claim, which at the end will have no value.
    Possibly responding to the detailed US patent US8419919. (See corrected date at the end of Rossis claim)

  • Not that I want to be deconstructive, but a good laugh is not to be frowned at.


    How do you accelerate electrons to 100 keV in a gas with a pressure of 3 to 6 bar?
    The answer of course is that you don't. You need a good vacuum for that.


    Yes, it really is an extremely PROVISIONAL APPLICATION FOR PATENT.


    It appears that a suitable length unit to quantify the depth of the physics knowledge of the writer is nanometers.

  • It looks like he's trying to do something else than described, then.


    On the other hand, there are reports of X-ray emission from laboratory-produced spark discharges in air, see for example:
    A study of X-ray emission from laboratory sparks in air at atmospheric pressure



    EDIT: regardless of what Rossi acually wrote in his provisional patent application, it's worth pointing out that Defkalion GT used to have a spark discharge system in their reactors, which in retrospect they might have copied from Rossi or at least, from one of his ideas. In their case, short spark discharges were claimed to be used for dissociating molecular hydrogen to its atomic form and excite the H atoms formed to their Rydberg state. See their 2013 presentation: https://drive.google.com/open?…eIOSe9g5EnSUxNUnBpdkFUWDg

  • I wonder if it is language thing?


    The Patent mentions that:"At these conditions Neutrons would be freed form the reactants and further recaptured by the atoms emitting the photons with energies between 50 and 100 keV"


    a) Is he talking about Nucleon (in particular Neutron) spallation? it seems this would normally require much higher energies than bombardment with 100 keV electrons? And he has already mentioned that he does not believe electron capture occurs. Or perhaps he was already thinking it is due to an accumulated effect, phonon resonance or the Extended Mossbauer effect described by Norman Cook?


    b) Or could he actually mean that in these conditions the neutrons in the nuclei are simply excited by some method to higher energy levels and then release the photons during de-excitation?


    In either case (a) or (b) could the excitement/de-excitment come from the interactions with the accelerated electrons? Perhaps through absorption of bremsstrahlung x-ray emissions at the specific frequency required for that transition? or directly somehow by some kind of internal conversion?


    I would tend to think he means a) however, which is interesting. Is he still thinking in these terms i wonder.

  • @StephenC: It could be that I'm biased for noticing coincidences, but Defkalion GT's theory was that the hydrogen atoms excited in a Rydberg state (specifically, with short spark discharges) could in some circumstances and for a very short period of time appear as "disguised neutrons" and easily engage with nuclear reaction with the Ni. This was also Lino Daddi's (and others) theory on the JONP a few years ago, if you remember his exchanges with Rossi; he called them "virtual neutrons" which is the same concept. I believe Widom-Larsen's "ultra low momentum neutrons" also are a similar concept.


    I think Rossi here is referring to something along these lines and not literally meaning that neutrons are actually produced in this intermediate step. This document therefore might be closer to his former interpretation of the reaction, even though it was filed in 2014.


    But this is just my speculation, and I'm not really taking this provisional patent application too seriously.



  • High gas pressure produces an arc discharge proportional to the current applied.


    In arc discharge, which occurs in the ampere range of the current; the voltage required across the tube drops with increasing current. High-current switching tubes, e.g. triggered spark gap,ignitron, thyratron and krytron (and its vacuum tube derivate,sprytron, using vacuum arc), high-power mercury-arc valves and high-power light sources, e.g. mercury-vapor lamps and metal halide lamps, operate in the high current mode.


    The breakdown voltage for the glow discharge depends nonlinearly on the product of gas pressure and electrode distance according to Paschen's law. For a certain pressure × distance value, there is a lowest breakdown voltage. The increase of strike voltage for shorter electrode distances is related to too long mean free path of the electrons in comparison with the electrode distance.


    A small amount of a radioactive element may be added into the tube, either as a separate piece of material (e.g. nickel-63 in krytrons) or as addition to the alloy of the electrodes (e.g. thorium), to preionize the gas and increase the reliability of electrical breakdown and glow or arc discharge ignition. The Papp engine used a variety of radioactive material methods to ionize the gas to produce an arc is a high pressure gas environment.

  • Let me add some points, for what it is worth.
    Regular petrol-burning automobile engines can make sparks in pressures around 1000 psi (69 bar) at a heavy engine load, in a gas + vapour.
    A spark, or several simultaneous sparks, engineered to trap some gas or vapor within the spark can cause Coulomb pressures (explosion and/or disintegrate molecules) to expel (self-repel) these particles at very high speeds. Can you get them up to 100 keV? Probably easily, if you know what you are doing.


    Separately,
    A question for physicists is: when a Coulomb explosion occurs, how is the force distributed? Can it leave an opening or weakened area opposite the side with the most Coulomb "pressure" being exerted?
    If the Coulomb explosion occurs in a cavity with an opening (i.e. crater), what are the forces like on the bottom of the crater (or the tightest part of a crack)? These Coulomb pressurized particles cannot move easily to escape the pressure, but instead must "wait" for the vent opening to dissipate the pressure, or force a new opening.

  • Funny idea I just had, please don't read too much into this.


    "3-6 bars" is actually an intentional typo/error Rossi made in his provisional patent application and it was really intended to be "E-6 bars", i.e.: 1E-6 bar => 10 ^ (-6) bar.
    Here's your vacuum (with a residual hydrogen atmosphere).

  • No, the electrons can not gain speed if they keep colliding with hydrogen molecules.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_free_path


    You need high vacuum.


    As in the nickel wire experiments where the resistance of the wire goes way down when the reaction sets in, a conditions of bose condensation of the core may reduce the e;ectrical resistance of the high pressure hydrogen gas to a level where a high voltage current will connect and flow.

  • Axil, HVDC is an acronym. It means that electric power is transferred using direct current at a high voltage. The current itself has no voltage, it has amperage.


    Your comments are unique axil. You indiscriminately scour the internet for exotic physics concepts. The harvest you stuff into your mental word blender, put on the lid and run it at full speed for five minutes. In this efficient way you produce a pseudo physics word soup that you without reality filter and in generous servings return to the internet.


    Why are you doing that? And why are you sometimes posting as axil axil? Are we also going to meet axil cubed? Please spare us! :)

  • Your comments are unique axil. You indiscriminately scour the internet for exotic physics concepts. The harvest you stuff into your mental word blender, put on the lid and run it at full speed for five minutes. In this efficient way you produce a pseudo physics word soup that you without reality filter and in generous servings return to the internet.

    This was exactly my impression from AxillAxil too. Occasionally he brings some interesting links into a discussion, but their interpretations are confused and scrambled with another articles. Unfortunately he gets quite a space at the ecatworld and another sites.

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