Why Cherokee changed its tune?

  • If the cop numbers in the lawsuit are correct, there are very many people that would be negatively impacted by this.
    if this technology isn't new and has been known about for quite some time, then the fact Rossi got this far is remarkable.
    rossi seems to confirm the genie is out of the bottle.


    cherokee may have gotten a deal it couldn't refuse to slow things up.


    they went in with good intentions but met the same fate as many before.


    too much on the line.


    Too many replications to dismiss as fraud.


    and if you doubt read holmlid's work.

  • @Deacon


    If as you claim technology for delivery of long-term excess heat far beyond chemical from cheap equipment exists the genie is indeed out of the bottle. But I don't think you quite realise the consequences both commercial (massive interest and money) and - scientists - however hidebound - like Nobel Prizes and the first person to prove this stuff scientifically would get one.


    The existing LENR results - and Jed R for example will I think agree - do not prove the matter individually. They can all be challenged. And are so. But if Rossi-type reactions were easily replicable the excess heat could trivially be measured beyond all doubt.


    Remember Rossi's tests have all been conducted without expert advice. They all contain obvious loopholes that could easily be closed in a good experiment from a scientist wanting a Nobel prize.

  • Thomas,


    There is an excellent story on Veterans Today http://www.veteranstoday.com/2…mp-will-bust-out-the-usa/ about an organized crime tactic of taking control of a business with the intent of looting it and finally actually torching it or busing it. The relevant text from Ian Greenhalgh's article on April 8, 2016 is copied here:
     
    “It’s one of the classic tactics of organized crime. You exploit it as far as you can and when you have essentially squeezed every possible bit of value out of it, you burn it. In organized crime’s case, I mean that literally, whereas with private equity, it’s planned bankruptcy. But essentially you dispose of it in as convenient a way as
    possible, and then you walk away.” Mark Galeotti, NYU Organized Crime Expert


    Darden et al at Cherokee were attempting to steal Rossi's IP, tie him up in a shipping container for a year while developing-marketing his IP all over the world, then deliberately try to set fire figuratively to Rossi's E-Cats, "bust" the licensing agreement, and finally walk away with the benefit of his IP. It's a classic organized crime hit job.


    There might be a criminal RICO referral in the case if there is any evidence of criminal intent on the part of criminal Cherokee "investors?" Tom Darden reminds me of Mitt Romney and Bain Capital Management which specialized in looting or 'busting' distressed companies for profit.

  • David,


    I don't deny that were Darden and Vaughn to be fraudulent, as Rossi alleges, what you suggest is possible. Even then I'm not sure it is probable. Rossi's law suit shows that there is danger. The fact that IH have to hire damage control experts show that there is enormous reputation loss for them.


    The issue is that Darden and Vaughn are not fly-by-night fraudsters who can take an illegal profit and run. They are associated with Cherokee - much larger - and their reputation as wise investors is part of their capital. Also, if you don't think Darden is genuinely motivated by a philanthropic wish to promote LENR I believe you are misjudging him, though as will all character judgements I could be mistaken.


    We have here a choice. Either:


    (a) Rossi is deluded/fraudulent. His stuff does not work. Darden/Vaughn were like the Swedish scientists extremely foolish and convinced by multiple tests apparently showing plentiful excess heat and one isotopic sample test apparently showing isotopic change. They have now reputation loss due to the lead investment which lookd so promissing and convinced other big investors to join them turning out a dud.


    (b) Rossi is a Nobel innovative inventor with world-beating extraordinary technology which will transform physics when it is finally tested properly. His tests all have loopholes but that is just carelessness. Darden and Vaughn are fraudulent (I don't think in this case deluded is even remotely possible). They are willing to sacrifice their existing reputations for the possibility that they will be able to commercialise this technology before Rossi, even though the reactor they made themselves (Lugano) when tested did not work. They are currently lying about not being able to substantiate Rossi's claims. They expect to survive the court case without criminal fraud charges being brought.


    As minor character information a poster on ECW stated (and I have no reason to disbelieve) that Darden and Vaughn were both genuine strongly committed Christians. Of course such people can do dreadful things - anyone can - but I do think it makes the Vaughn/Darden fraud proposition even less likely.


    EDIT:

    bachcole on ECW wrote:

    Below I alluded to a conspiracy by I.H. But what I don't get is why would Darden and Vaughn be part of a massive whooper, harmful, persistent, pervasive. Vaughn is a very serious conservative Christian. And Darden does not seem to be too far behind. They both should know what the consequences are for them to lie so hugely. This is no little white lie like telling your wife that she looks good when she is really an old bag. If this is what it appears to be, it is a monster lie, way beyond electrocuting an innocent elephant in order to make a point. Just exactly how do they intend to live with themselves, if this is the lie that it looks like.


    I know most of you have very little sympathy for the religious. I understand the religious because I have much in common with them. A lie like this would haunt them every waking hour, giving them no rest. Even if Rossi is a major pain in the ass, the pain from a pain in the ass is temporary; the sin of a monstrous, harmful lie like this would be forever.


    Right now, for me, the only thing that makes any sense is that they or their families were threatened. Again, I do not like conspiracy theories. But for me currently this is the only theory that makes any sense; perhaps future revelations will alter my thinking on this.

  • I have written this text already and posted it in another thread, but place it here again with some modifications!


    They paid $US 1,500,000.00 and later $US 10,000,000.00. This, as the papers sent to the court show, in conformity with the license contractual arrangements and following the respective technical evaluation level of the 1MW Ecat Plant.


    9 months after the 350-day trial has started, monitored by Industrial Heat, Thomas Darden enjoyed interviews that do not indicate the approach that anything may be wrong and that there is any doubt on the 1MW plant, on the contrary, they travel to China to present the technology and filled patent applications, which would be absurd, if you have doubts about the technology, of course unless you want to deceive your own investors!


    And now honest, how stupid Thomas Darden and JT Vaughn have to be if they are in a time period of 9 months duration not able to detect a technical fake? How do these gentlemen handle the assets of their clients, what kind of investors are they, if they are not able to comply with the simplest rules for investments and able to appoint a capable technical experts. With an investment of $US 100,500,000.00 that should be standard and if I would have any doubt, or see trouble I will call on 10 evaluators (for example, the German TÜV) if nessessary!


    But more importantly, why should Rossi, if he were an impostor, deliver the evidence of a fraud to an American court by himself? The court will have to check whether this is a fraud, or not, that would be completely insane.


    Taking all this into consideration a technical fake of the 1MW Plant is unlikely!


    I think Thomas Darden and JT Vaughn just wanted to play poker, as financial sharks always do, with very high stakes, but this time they have exaggerated and tried to deceive Rossi, who holds a Royal Flash in his hands, with marked cards. That has not succeeded, they have gambled like beginners and indeed completely lost and for a couple of 'peanuts' they probably not only have shot their best horse, but additionally destroyed, out of sheer greed, a multi trillion $US dollar investment. That's just stupid and if I would be an investors in this company my money would immediately disappeared from the fund, because burning it, I can do by myself!

  • @Rends: agree. The whole story makes absolutely no sense.

    Especially the fact that Rossi is going to court.


    If he really is a fraudster, he would silently go his way, hoping to be forgotten as fast as possible.
    And not starting a big and expensive lawsuit against a very powerful corporation (Cherokee and it's subsidiaries) which could take a few years.

  • Consider this:


    Rossi wins his case against Darden et al and is paid the remainder of his contract due damages and court costs. What are the implications?


    Rossi is vindicated and also gains much needed credibility. Darden has Intellectual Property worth billions of dollars for which he has paid with the added bonus of a court case supporting the LENR invention.


    Rossi looses, implications that his 'invention' does not work. Darden et al and Rossi has near worthless intellectual property.


    Woodford et al sue Darden and Rossi for fraud.


    Its a no brainer. Am I missing a trick here? Rossi will win and it will be a back door win for Darden and Cherokee et al


    Best regards
    Frank

  • Quote

    And now honest, how stupid Thomas Darden and JT Vaughn have to be if they are in a time period of 9 months duration not able to detect a technical fake?


    I think you are being unfair. They have been unwise in having the wrong technical advisors. For example, they might have picked the Swedes - who from the outside would seem to be good candidates, independent and well qualified. We now know they were very bad candidates for evaluating the rigor of these experiments. Would Darden have known this?


    So - unwise in not having multiple technical advisors. Or unwise in ignoring skeptical advise for the same reason you probably ignore skeptical views on LENR? Darden, as an LENR fan, must probably buy into the view that mainstream scientists are a priori biassed against LENR and would take general cautions about lack of rigor in experiments as bias.


    As for why it takes so long. You must realise that having accepted technical advice that the tests are sound they have so many independent tests:


    Penon (2)
    Ferrara (2)
    Lugano (1)
    Penon 24 hour (1?)


    They find that when they test themselves (and it will take some time to develop different test methods) they cannot replicate these test results. Do they doubt the results? Of course not. They go back to Rossi. They assume they may have made some mistake, just as MFMP and others assume that the "magic sauce" is quite difficult to get right.


    If they had called foul without an extensive period of investigation you would be the first to say they were not giving Rossi a fair chance. And for them to call foul is a major and very highly embarrassing thing - how can they do it without positive proof?


    But it is also true that the change in stance, when it comes, is likely to be fast. Once you admit that deliberate deceit from Rossi is plausible you go back and re-examine the tests. Also, I don't know when they noted the error in the Lugano test. It must have been especially convincing for them because they made the reactor. When they finally got somone competent to read my paper they would be 100% convinced that this test was not what it seemed. Then they would doubt the isotopic result - but that means thinking that Rossi probably substituted them deliberately. You can see that the whole structure comes tumbling down like a house of cards once you start to doubt - but to do that and reckon Rossi deliberately dishonest is a very large step to take and one they would not want to do when all they had was 6 positive tests from a total of 8 different independent testers.

  • barty wrote:

    The whole story makes absolutely no sense.
    Especially the fact that Rossi is going to court.If he really is a fraudster, he would silently go his way, hoping to be forgotten as fast as possible.


    I think you are assuming Rossi is 100% rational and makes good business decisions. It is very easy to see how he might believe what has worked for 5 years will go on working. It certainly seems to be so with you - and who is to say a Court will treat him any worse?


    From Rossi's point of view he has just been cheated of a promised $89M he had been expecting for 2 years. How would you feel?

  • Quote

    Woodford et al sue Darden and Rossi for fraud.


    If they had the same information as was available to Darden et al when they invested then there is no case for fraud. Both made the same mistake. I would expect that.


    It is known that Woodford et al did not do what I would call proper scientific due diligence. Those reports are all of objective very bad quality except for Ferrara, and that can be questioned as I've done, and would be by a non-LENR scientist looking in detail at the experiment. But equally most here would find that collection of reports extraordinarily convincing, and would also think that a view from a non-LENR scientist would be biassed - just as you think my view here is biassed. All Woodford has to do is buy into this "mainstream scientists are biassed" idea and they will find the reports convincing just as Darden did.

  • I think you are being unfair.


    When I am responsible for 2,2 Billion $US http://cherokeefund.com/tom-darden/, money of my costumers, and then act in such a massively unprofessional manner, then it is not 'unfair', if someone tells you that you are stupid. Darden is investing the money of his costumers (multi millions of $US) and therefor he by himself as CEO (means - chief executive officer) is personally responsible and can not hide himself behind decisions of others, especially in this case where he choose to took the leader and spokesman role by himself.

  • Quote

    When I am responsible for 2,2 Billion $US cherokeefund.com/tom-darden/, money of my costumers, and then act in such a massively unprofessional manner, then it is not 'unfair', if someone tells you that you are stupid. Darden is investing the money of his costumers (multi millions of $US) and therefor he by himself as CEO (means - chief executive officer) is personally responsible and can not hide himself behind decisions of others, especially in this case where he choose to took the leader and spokesman role by himself.


    OK - well I take that point. But where in this story would you want him to have acted differently? If you support LENR, which most here do, you would not want him to pay attention to skeptic scientists comments on the many Rossi independent reports? So: at what point would he have realised Rossi was a flake - and what would trigger that - and what would he then do?


    Tom

  • many good hargument in the thread.
    Darden is the most rational. Rossi is emotional, but not without interest.


    the only rational and coherent theory is :


    - since Rossi have been unable to bring public credible evidence, and since no credible evidence will be accepted (see Ferrara kW test whose calorimetry is Ok, while the electric is under conspiracy theory)
    - since the test is already criticized and would have been whatever it contains


    then Darden NEED a good public certified evidence. certified by Fabio penon, an engineer in nuclear industry... no because he have already tested a Rossi reactor and see it work. this is too much for skeptic. moreover he is not the most competent in calorimetry and as Jed says, a good HVAC expert would do better.


    but Rossi clearly refuse to show good evidence, or maybe just because he always does a half finished work.


    so best is to force Rossi to show his cards, to show a real good definitive test result.


    refuse to pay until he gives good PUBLIC evidences.


    And guess what, Rossi want to be paid, so he sue his partner, who will then ask for evidence to show to the judge.
    the judeg will ask evidence, and Rossi will have to please the judge or drop the money, and pay back the 11M$ plus interest and damages.


    note that Nevalinna on Cobraf have found an attachement in a provisional (abandonned) patent with a 1MW test orotocol
    http://www.monetazione.it/forum/immagini/R_123621412_3.pdf


    I notice :
    - energy came from an independent generator (harder to fake than a main cable)
    - water flow from tank to tank, and is cooled by air to condensate it


    fraud on the flow, or the input power is easy to spot.
    for temperature just in and out of water or steam(assuming water) allows flwo calorimetry.
    given Defkalion trick with flowmeter, expect this trick to be checked 3 time.
    given critics on wet steam, expect the problem to be accounted.


    the use of tank is important and was the key to gamberale test, spotting the trick of DGT.




    the test would have pleased Jed and Mary.

  • Quote

    Thomas Clarke: OK - well I take that point. But where in this story would you want him to have acted differently? If you support LENR, which most here do, you would not want him to pay attention to skeptic scientists comments on the many Rossi independent reports? So: at what point would he have realised Rossi was a flake - and what would trigger that - and what would he then do?


    Well, I personally wouldn't have been "increasingly interested" in funding the work after over 2.5 years without success in substantiating the results, including several months of the 1 MW year long test.


    Quote

    IH statement, April 7, 2016:


    Industrial Heat has worked for over three years to substantiate the results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat technology – all without success.


    Quote

    Tom Darden in an interview 6 monts ago, Oct 9, 2015:


    Rossi’s technology, dubbed E-Cat, is a black box that, according to reports, uses cold fusion to generate large amounts of green energy cheaply. Darden sees it as an alternative to the coal plants pumping pollutants into the sky, and says his team is “increasingly interested” in funding the work. He is “absolutely not” ready to release a timeline as to when data will be available, however.


    http://www.bizjournals.com/tri…at-lab-space-cary-nc.html

  • But where in this story would you want him to have acted differently?

    • Darden and his Team are experienced business men and know how to negotiate and make pressure to negotiation partners.
    • They also knew, long before making negotiations with Rossi, that he has a "reputation" as fraudster.

    So they should have been very careful.


    In this case I would have expected by Darden and his Team, that they forced Rossi to give them absolutely clear evidence that his invention works as claimed (in what ever way this happens).
    Otherwise the negotiations end with negative outcome. Finish.
    When Rossi wants the money, he would have delivered. Even heavy-heartedly.


    But, if the recent IH deny story isn't just a not yet uncovered business tactic, they seem to have invested much money and trusted Rossi without the "absolutely clear evidence that his invention works as claimed".


    I can't believe such a naive behaviour from experienced business men like Darden.
    So I guess this deny-story is a complex business tactic, to steal the IP legally through some legal loopholes.


    Darden decided to offer Rossi to give him money.  :!: 
    Rossi did not force Darden to give him money. That's the confusing part in this story. :pillepalle:

  • Quote

    Well, I personally wouldn't have been "increasingly interested" in funding the work after over 2.5 years without success in substantiating the results, including several months of the 1 MW year long test.


    Well, you would unless you reckoned Rossi's tests were wrong. The initial results from the 1 years test would have been very encouraging - and this was in an industrial situation - the most real test yet!


    The initial tests you did yourself (forllowing Rossi methods) would in some cases have worked fine


    So my question - given you would have been cold at that point - how much trying to substantiate results without clear success would you allow before deciding Rossi was a liar? The Lugano isotopic results were a smoking gun. They would believe, unless Rossi was a bare-faced liar, and they would no doubt have questioned him to make sure it was real, that his device must do real measurable LENR. That is a very strong poistive.


    MFMP seem to have no trouble spending a very long time...

  • @barty


    Quote

    In this case I would have expected from Darden and his Team, that they forced Rossi to give them absolutely clear evidence that his invention works as claimed (in what ever way this happens).Otherwise the negotiations end negative. Finish.


    So would you not view those 6 separate positive independent experiments as absolutely clear? I mean - I do not. But I, and people with skeptical views like me, would surely be viewed as biased mainstream scientists.


    Given those reports what do you think the Swedes would say? What do you think most (though not all) LENR scientists would say?


    I have argued the skeptical position on these reports and been condemned by you (I imagine) and others (certainly) for speculating, being biassed, not being able to find the precise error. It is quite true - I can't prove there is an error in the Ferrara report.


    How do you want Darden to have found his way through this maze? He can only listen to technical advice. Who should he trust?


    I notice there are a lot of independent reports. Darden sure did not accept just one! I think he was trying to do what you want him to do.


    I think this is an important point. The whole rationale for LENR research is that mainstream scientists cannot be trusted to evaluate the evidence because they are biassed. So who do you think Darden should get to evaluate those reports? And what do you think they said?

  • "Rossi wins his case against Darden et al and is paid the remainder of his contract due damages and court costs. What are the implications?"


    If Rossi wins, unlikely Darden can just pay the remainder and retain his licenses. Darden would be in default and the contract nullified.

  • @Thomas Clarke: That's why I said that they knew long before their negotiations with Rossi that he is accuses to be a fraudster.


    In such a special case they should have been extra carefully and groomed their own experts, own scientist they trust. Skeptical scientists like you, who better measure 5 times than believing their own measured data.
    As a manager of a company which maintains millions and billions of US$, I expect that Darden has very good contacts to get some absolutely independent and well known scientists (e.g. from NASA or something else).


    If Rossi didn't agree with that: Okay, then we go separate ways and you will not see one single cent from us.
    It's simple like that.


    Therefore I expect that Darden had very good reasons to trust Rossi and pump money into this, due to own due diligence.
    Otherwise Darden is a very dumb man. Sorry.

  • @barty
    I should say, I'm not a scientist - just an amateur with some scientific education and quite a lot of engineering lab experience. :)


    But, do you think LENR would get much funding if funders listen to people like me? I agree it would have been safer to fund Rossi a little while trying to get clearer evidence. But, to some extent they did that.


    I can't see that they are much to blame from their standpoint of thinking that LENR was almost certainly real. They took a brave risk. It is very easy to be wise after the fact.

  • Rossi is like we know him, emotional and a bit paranoid, from bad experience I imagine.
    He shows problems to do things perfectly, and his reports have always caught critics, not all which are just bias and denial.


    Darden have money responsibility, experience in business, and a portfolio of inventors and partners.


    It is beyond stupidity to screw a partner when you have many. How will Brillouin, (why not Miley ? is he related) react if Rossi is screwed, even if it is to his benefit?
    Anyway things beyond stupidity have happened recently.


    My bet is however that Darden is not the most prone to irrational reaction and emerging stupidity.


    IH is creating an ecosystem of inventors and manufacturing capacity, in which Rossi had a good place.


    With Rossi attack, he will have to play with the others only.

  • Alain wrote:

    It is beyond stupidity to screw a partner when you have many. How will Brillouin, (why not Miley ? is he related) react if Rossi is screwed, even if it is to his benefit?Anyway things beyond stupidity have happened recently.


    Alain,


    If you open your mind to the possibility (now looking a lot more probable even to ECW readers) that Rossi has never had anything that works, then IH is not screwing Rossi. Rather, IH is deciding, rather late in the day, that they no longer wish to be screwed by Rossi.

  • Thomas wrote:

    Quote

    As minor character information a poster on ECW stated (and I have no reason to disbelieve) that Darden and Vaughn were both genuine strongly committed Christians. Of course such people can do dreadful things - anyone can - but I do think it makes the Vaughn/Darden fraud proposition even less likely.


    An almighty entity, a god, cannot be envisioned within the framework of standard physics as we know it. Belief in one or several gods is what we refer to as “religion”.


    A religious person is convinced that at least one god exists. Since a god by definition is omnipotent anything is possible. And that should include Low Energy Nuclear Reactions. In this case the acronym LENR should better be translated as “Low Energy Nuclear Religion”. Is that what IH are preaching?

  • @H-G Branzell
    This post from 'guest' on Mats site is not rocket science but summarises nicely what I think IH are preaching, and why they have acted as they have.


    And if this is true the public and legal row is Rossi having a hissy fit about it as - given his past behaviour - is what you'd expect. It boggles belief, to me, the way that so many people are being complicated about it! Rossi's grip on the blogosphere is only to be expected, given the effort he puts into cultivating it, but it is good that real world finance has this self-correcting mechanism so that people do not go on paying when things don't work.


    The patent issue: IH are specifically allowed to prosecute e-cat patents under the license agreement - so I don't know what Rossi means about "without his permission"? Or would he rather they submitted the patent without his name as inventor?


  • I guess IH is able to reproduce a COP around 2 - 3. So Rossi's "old" IP.
    But meanwhile Rossi has IP to get COPs 10 times more than that.


    So IH is not able to reproduce this. That's what they said in their press release.
    According to the license agreement Rossi should have exchanged his new findings with them, what he didn't.

  • Quote

    I guess IH is able to reproduce a COP around 2 - 3. So Rossi's "old" IP.


    That would mean Darden is a bare-faced liar. The tests on which they and others invested were all showing that COP except for one outlier at 6. Darden is not a fool*. A COP of 3, reliable, cheap, is nevertheless a world breakthrough LENR and commercial in the context of 'Industrial Heat' - though not competitive with gas. Furthermore, as has been pointed out so many times, COP of 3 => COP of infinity with some engineering and the correct variable cooling.


    If Rossi's stuff works at all than Rossi is hot property and IH will pay $89M to keep him on board and preserve the juicy license. The license specifically allows them to make improvements. In the current situation they have no license for that IP and disaster-level PR.


    'guest's comment above fits all the facts nicely, without saying bad things about Darden and Vaughn.


    *H-G I know what you are going to say! Given his belief - that LENR likely works - Darden is no fool.

  • That would mean Darden is a bare-faced liar. The tests on which they invested were all showing that COP except for one outlier at 6.


    Okay I should have been more generally. "COP of 2-3" was just guessing why IH could be upset.


    What I wanted to say is: IH was/is able to reproduce, but with much smaller COP than Rossi is achieving now. Maybe Rossi just gave them enough information to build reactors and fuel to get COP < 10.
    But Rossi knows how to boost that to 50 and higher. IH is not able to reproduce such COP values.


    The license agreement also wants this knowledge to be transfered to the IH staff. But Rossi didn't do that. So IH didn't pay.


    Just my guess. It would make sense in my view.