Why Cherokee changed its tune?

@Deacon

If as you claim technology for delivery of long-term excess heat far beyond chemical from cheap equipment exists the genie is indeed out of the bottle. But I don't think you quite realise the consequences both commercial (massive interest and money) and - scientists - however hidebound - like Nobel Prizes and the first person to prove this stuff scientifically would get one.

The existing LENR results - and Jed R for example will I think agree - do not prove the matter individually. They can all be challenged. And are so. But if Rossi-type reactions were easily replicable the excess heat could trivially be measured beyond all doubt.

Remember Rossi's tests have all been conducted without expert advice. They all contain obvious loopholes that could easily be closed in a good experiment from a scientist wanting a Nobel prize.

Thomas,

There is an excellent story on Veterans Today http://www.veteranstoday.com/2…mp-will-bust-out-the-usa/ about an organized crime tactic of taking control of a business with the intent of looting it and finally actually torching it or busing it. The relevant text from Ian Greenhalgh's article on April 8, 2016 is copied here:

“It’s one of the classic tactics of organized crime. You exploit it as far as you can and when you have essentially squeezed every possible bit of value out of it, you burn it. In organized crime’s case, I mean that literally, whereas with private equity, it’s planned bankruptcy. But essentially you dispose of it in as convenient a way as
possible, and then you walk away.” Mark Galeotti, NYU Organized Crime Expert

Darden et al at Cherokee were attempting to steal Rossi's IP, tie him up in a shipping container for a year while developing-marketing his IP all over the world, then deliberately try to set fire figuratively to Rossi's E-Cats, "bust" the licensing agreement, and finally walk away with the benefit of his IP. It's a classic organized crime hit job.

There might be a criminal RICO referral in the case if there is any evidence of criminal intent on the part of criminal Cherokee "investors?" Tom Darden reminds me of Mitt Romney and Bain Capital Management which specialized in looting or 'busting' distressed companies for profit.

David,

I don't deny that were Darden and Vaughn to be fraudulent, as Rossi alleges, what you suggest is possible. Even then I'm not sure it is probable. Rossi's law suit shows that there is danger. The fact that IH have to hire damage control experts show that there is enormous reputation loss for them.

The issue is that Darden and Vaughn are not fly-by-night fraudsters who can take an illegal profit and run. They are associated with Cherokee - much larger - and their reputation as wise investors is part of their capital. Also, if you don't think Darden is genuinely motivated by a philanthropic wish to promote LENR I believe you are misjudging him, though as will all character judgements I could be mistaken.

We have here a choice. Either:

(a) Rossi is deluded/fraudulent. His stuff does not work. Darden/Vaughn were like the Swedish scientists extremely foolish and convinced by multiple tests apparently showing plentiful excess heat and one isotopic sample test apparently showing isotopic change. They have now reputation loss due to the lead investment which lookd so promissing and convinced other big investors to join them turning out a dud.

(b) Rossi is a Nobel innovative inventor with world-beating extraordinary technology which will transform physics when it is finally tested properly. His tests all have loopholes but that is just carelessness. Darden and Vaughn are fraudulent (I don't think in this case deluded is even remotely possible). They are willing to sacrifice their existing reputations for the possibility that they will be able to commercialise this technology before Rossi, even though the reactor they made themselves (Lugano) when tested did not work. They are currently lying about not being able to substantiate Rossi's claims. They expect to survive the court case without criminal fraud charges being brought.

As minor character information a poster on ECW stated (and I have no reason to disbelieve) that Darden and Vaughn were both genuine strongly committed Christians. Of course such people can do dreadful things - anyone can - but I do think it makes the Vaughn/Darden fraud proposition even less likely.

EDIT:

Quote from bachcole on ECW

Below I alluded to a conspiracy by I.H. But what I don't get is why would Darden and Vaughn be part of a massive whooper, harmful, persistent, pervasive. Vaughn is a very serious conservative Christian. And Darden does not seem to be too far behind. They both should know what the consequences are for them to lie so hugely. This is no little white lie like telling your wife that she looks good when she is really an old bag. If this is what it appears to be, it is a monster lie, way beyond electrocuting an innocent elephant in order to make a point. Just exactly how do they intend to live with themselves, if this is the lie that it looks like.

I know most of you have very little sympathy for the religious. I understand the religious because I have much in common with them. A lie like this would haunt them every waking hour, giving them no rest. Even if Rossi is a major pain in the ass, the pain from a pain in the ass is temporary; the sin of a monstrous, harmful lie like this would be forever.

Right now, for me, the only thing that makes any sense is that they or their families were threatened. Again, I do not like conspiracy theories. But for me currently this is the only theory that makes any sense; perhaps future revelations will alter my thinking on this.

Consider this:

Rossi wins his case against Darden et al and is paid the remainder of his contract due damages and court costs. What are the implications?

Rossi is vindicated and also gains much needed credibility. Darden has Intellectual Property worth billions of dollars for which he has paid with the added bonus of a court case supporting the LENR invention.

Rossi looses, implications that his 'invention' does not work. Darden et al and Rossi has near worthless intellectual property.

Woodford et al sue Darden and Rossi for fraud.

Its a no brainer. Am I missing a trick here? Rossi will win and it will be a back door win for Darden and Cherokee et al

Best regards
Frank

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And now honest, how stupid Thomas Darden and JT Vaughn have to be if they are in a time period of 9 months duration not able to detect a technical fake?

I think you are being unfair. They have been unwise in having the wrong technical advisors. For example, they might have picked the Swedes - who from the outside would seem to be good candidates, independent and well qualified. We now know they were very bad candidates for evaluating the rigor of these experiments. Would Darden have known this?

So - unwise in not having multiple technical advisors. Or unwise in ignoring skeptical advise for the same reason you probably ignore skeptical views on LENR? Darden, as an LENR fan, must probably buy into the view that mainstream scientists are a priori biassed against LENR and would take general cautions about lack of rigor in experiments as bias.

As for why it takes so long. You must realise that having accepted technical advice that the tests are sound they have so many independent tests:

Penon (2)
Ferrara (2)
Lugano (1)
Penon 24 hour (1?)

They find that when they test themselves (and it will take some time to develop different test methods) they cannot replicate these test results. Do they doubt the results? Of course not. They go back to Rossi. They assume they may have made some mistake, just as MFMP and others assume that the "magic sauce" is quite difficult to get right.

If they had called foul without an extensive period of investigation you would be the first to say they were not giving Rossi a fair chance. And for them to call foul is a major and very highly embarrassing thing - how can they do it without positive proof?

But it is also true that the change in stance, when it comes, is likely to be fast. Once you admit that deliberate deceit from Rossi is plausible you go back and re-examine the tests. Also, I don't know when they noted the error in the Lugano test. It must have been especially convincing for them because they made the reactor. When they finally got somone competent to read my paper they would be 100% convinced that this test was not what it seemed. Then they would doubt the isotopic result - but that means thinking that Rossi probably substituted them deliberately. You can see that the whole structure comes tumbling down like a house of cards once you start to doubt - but to do that and reckon Rossi deliberately dishonest is a very large step to take and one they would not want to do when all they had was 6 positive tests from a total of 8 different independent testers.

Quote from barty

The whole story makes absolutely no sense.
Especially the fact that Rossi is going to court.If he really is a fraudster, he would silently go his way, hoping to be forgotten as fast as possible.

I think you are assuming Rossi is 100% rational and makes good business decisions. It is very easy to see how he might believe what has worked for 5 years will go on working. It certainly seems to be so with you - and who is to say a Court will treat him any worse?

From Rossi's point of view he has just been cheated of a promised $89M he had been expecting for 2 years. How would you feel?

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Woodford et al sue Darden and Rossi for fraud.

If they had the same information as was available to Darden et al when they invested then there is no case for fraud. Both made the same mistake. I would expect that.

It is known that Woodford et al did not do what I would call proper scientific due diligence. Those reports are all of objective very bad quality except for Ferrara, and that can be questioned as I've done, and would be by a non-LENR scientist looking in detail at the experiment. But equally most here would find that collection of reports extraordinarily convincing, and would also think that a view from a non-LENR scientist would be biassed - just as you think my view here is biassed. All Woodford has to do is buy into this "mainstream scientists are biassed" idea and they will find the reports convincing just as Darden did.

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When I am responsible for 2,2 Billion $US cherokeefund.com/tom-darden/, money of my costumers, and then act in such a massively unprofessional manner, then it is not 'unfair', if someone tells you that you are stupid. Darden is investing the money of his costumers (multi millions of $US) and therefor he by himself as CEO (means - chief executive officer) is personally responsible and can not hide himself behind decisions of others, especially in this case where he choose to took the leader and spokesman role by himself.

OK - well I take that point. But where in this story would you want him to have acted differently? If you support LENR, which most here do, you would not want him to pay attention to skeptic scientists comments on the many Rossi independent reports? So: at what point would he have realised Rossi was a flake - and what would trigger that - and what would he then do?

Tom

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Thomas Clarke: OK - well I take that point. But where in this story would you want him to have acted differently? If you support LENR, which most here do, you would not want him to pay attention to skeptic scientists comments on the many Rossi independent reports? So: at what point would he have realised Rossi was a flake - and what would trigger that - and what would he then do?

Well, I personally wouldn't have been "increasingly interested" in funding the work after over 2.5 years without success in substantiating the results, including several months of the 1 MW year long test.

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IH statement, April 7, 2016:

Industrial Heat has worked for over three years to substantiate the results claimed by Mr. Rossi from the E-Cat technology – all without success.

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Tom Darden in an interview 6 monts ago, Oct 9, 2015:

Rossi’s technology, dubbed E-Cat, is a black box that, according to reports, uses cold fusion to generate large amounts of green energy cheaply. Darden sees it as an alternative to the coal plants pumping pollutants into the sky, and says his team is “increasingly interested” in funding the work. He is “absolutely not” ready to release a timeline as to when data will be available, however.

http://www.bizjournals.com/tri…at-lab-space-cary-nc.html

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Well, I personally wouldn't have been "increasingly interested" in funding the work after over 2.5 years without success in substantiating the results, including several months of the 1 MW year long test.

Well, you would unless you reckoned Rossi's tests were wrong. The initial results from the 1 years test would have been very encouraging - and this was in an industrial situation - the most real test yet!

The initial tests you did yourself (forllowing Rossi methods) would in some cases have worked fine

So my question - given you would have been cold at that point - how much trying to substantiate results without clear success would you allow before deciding Rossi was a liar? The Lugano isotopic results were a smoking gun. They would believe, unless Rossi was a bare-faced liar, and they would no doubt have questioned him to make sure it was real, that his device must do real measurable LENR. That is a very strong poistive.

MFMP seem to have no trouble spending a very long time...

@barty

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In this case I would have expected from Darden and his Team, that they forced Rossi to give them absolutely clear evidence that his invention works as claimed (in what ever way this happens).Otherwise the negotiations end negative. Finish.

So would you not view those 6 separate positive independent experiments as absolutely clear? I mean - I do not. But I, and people with skeptical views like me, would surely be viewed as biased mainstream scientists.

Given those reports what do you think the Swedes would say? What do you think most (though not all) LENR scientists would say?

I have argued the skeptical position on these reports and been condemned by you (I imagine) and others (certainly) for speculating, being biassed, not being able to find the precise error. It is quite true - I can't prove there is an error in the Ferrara report.

How do you want Darden to have found his way through this maze? He can only listen to technical advice. Who should he trust?

I notice there are a lot of independent reports. Darden sure did not accept just one! I think he was trying to do what you want him to do.

I think this is an important point. The whole rationale for LENR research is that mainstream scientists cannot be trusted to evaluate the evidence because they are biassed. So who do you think Darden should get to evaluate those reports? And what do you think they said?

"Rossi wins his case against Darden et al and is paid the remainder of his contract due damages and court costs. What are the implications?"

If Rossi wins, unlikely Darden can just pay the remainder and retain his licenses. Darden would be in default and the contract nullified.