Jed Rothwell: Industrial Heat Don’t Believe ERV Report

Jed

Quote from JedRothwell

Where did you hear of these people? From Rossi's blog? I don't read it.

See http://www.e-catworld.com/2015…-trust-uk-public-company/

http://energycatalyzer3.com/in…could-put-money-into-lenr

An Industrial Heat Investor Identified: Woodford Patient Capital Trust (UK Public Company)Posted on August 25, 2015 by Frank Acland • 19 Comments

Quote from above: "When asked why he invested in LENR, Darden noted that he is aware of nearly 50 reported positive cold fusion tests. He mentioned work at the US National Laboratories at Oak Ride and Los Alamos and SRI (possibly Michael McKubre’s work). He also mentioned work at the Electric Power Research Institute or EPRI. The EPRI is a think tank and research organization associated with the US electric power industry".

Best regards
Frank

Jumping in to point out a mistake that recurs in almost all of the discussions of this situation.

Most posters assume IH = Rossi Investment (or even LENR=Rossi), when in actuality IH has invested in Rossi along with several other LENR scientists/technologies (per their own statements). If any of those investments end up showing good results then IH's investors (e.g. Woodford et al.) are happy and likely in for a huge return on invested capital.

IH's success does not depend solely on Rossi, and neither would an investment pitch. Woodford would have done due diligence on all of the IH investments, not just on Rossi, so it's unclear how much of their decision to invest would have relied on any one scientist or technology. They would have been aware of Rossi's checkered reputation and the small likelihood of success, so these new developments are likely not a surprise. If they thought there was a 100% chance of Rossi success they would have pushed to put a lot more than $50M in the deal (<1% of funds raised).

Posters who claim the Woodford investment as proof that either Rossi's tech works or that IH was committing fraud are way off base. Unless you were part of the investment pitch you have absolutely no clue what was presented or what the basis for investment was.

@Guest
In other words, unless IH had an unmentioned source of extra funds, they have never had enough money to pay Rossi if the plant was successful and the report on it was totally solid.

Quote from Paradigmnoia

In other words, unless IH had an unmentioned source of extra funds, they have never had enough money to pay Rossi if the plant was successful and the report on it was totally solid.

I never said anything like that, and not sure how you would have interpreted that from my post.

But... to the first part of your question I haven't seen any public documents laying out investments other than the ~$50M from Woodford and then the initial ~$10-12M from other sources. However, that also doesn't mean they didn't or wouldn't have had enough money to pay Rossi. I don't see how anyone outside of IH could really know that without access to a lot of private documents, as things like contingent contracts for follow on capital, new investors, lines of credit, etc might have been available for them to call on when/if needed.

Non-investors tend to think of 'having enough money' as meaning the funds are sitting in a bank account, but that's not really a relevant way of approaching it as there are the funds you have plus funding you have access to that remains un-executed until/unless called upon.

@Guest
I am not interpreting that from your post entirely, but also from a variety of sources.

One issue (to Rossi) may be that IH, although well connected, cannot access $89 million within 5 (business) days if Rossi's conditions were properly fulfilled, unless IH made appropriate actions to ensure that could happen. Probably almost nobody could raise that kind of money in the public or private markets in 5 days, even if there was a demand, since it takes time to formalize these transfers. Cherokee can only move so much money around, even if it has the assets. There is a lot of paperwork involved in shuffling cash around from a fund. IH did not probably have much more than half of that $89 million available (from Woodford), since some of it is involved in other business. Their investments are not known enough to gauge the amount they may have spent on other projects and patent purchases/filings. It is known that Rossi received most of the money IH had from their initial financing.

So if IH did not secure about $40+ million elsewhere, on a schedule based on the term of the 1 MW test, then they could not fulfill their part of the contract.
Possibly they had reason to believe that Rossi could not perform his contractual obligations, and so IH did not bother to organize the extra funds.
That may be considered (by Rossi) to not be acting in good faith.

Quote from GoatGuy

Heat a pool of water.

I've been waiting for this particular test for several years. For a smaller unit, a hot tub might do the trick.

Guest: Non-investors tend to think of 'having enough money' as meaning the funds are sitting in a bank account, but that's not really a relevant way of approaching it as there are the funds you have plus funding you have access to that remains un-executed until/unless called upon.

I am sure that after the testing was complete and the ERV report was in, that we now know that the contract required payment immediately. Not sure if you mean Rossi investors.
My experience in contracts is when you have a due date you pay, they do not wait X amount of days not unless there is a penalty stipulated.

Paradigmnoia: I did not see your reply before my comment, yours is more to the point.

Quote

I've been waiting for this particular test for several years. For a smaller unit, a hot tub might do the trick.

Sure beats a cup of tea....

Quote

An insight that seems not yet to have dawned on the LENR huggers is that IH's due diligences on the other LENR mongers that are mentioned as possible LENR investment objects probably also have been substandard.

Due diligence on the unknown is like

My first observation is that most of this discussion is not directed at the actual set of problems faced by Rossi and IH.
Anyone who has read up on LENR (e.g. The Science of LENR by Ed Storms) knows that LENR is a real effect. It works...get over it.
Anyone who has calculated the worth of a working LENR model complete with patents knows that such a "package" is potentially worth Trillions of dollars.

So, Rossi sold to IH such a package for only $1.5 million plus $10 million plus a committment to pay another $89 million on delivery of a one year test. Follow-on was 5% up to $1 billion more in royalties plus. At this point in the story, it appears that IH has "taken advantage" of Rossi in a business deal. In order to secure his deal, Darden has gone all over the globe buying up everyone else's patents as well.

But wait, There are many many kinds of LENR and Rossi sold IH only ONE of them.
Rossi has two groups, one is working on the Low Temperature E-Cat and the second group is working on the High Temperature E-CatX.

So, one morning Tom Darden wakes up to realize that he paid $11.5 million and made a commitment to pay $89 million more for an inferior technology. A technology whose only defect is that there is another technology which is superior.

So what does Tom Darden do now? Does he claim that Rossi's LENR doesn't work? Or does he admit that Rossi's Low Temp LENR DOES work but that he also owns any follow-on technologies that Rossi comes up with?

Whoops, Darden forgot to put in the contract that he owns Rossi's brain.

d

@barty
The Quote function doesn't work for me with a Pad.
(Because of my fat fingers, I can barely get the pad to select anything without a fight.)

It is called "The Sting" and is based on the concept that you "Cannot cheat an honest man". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sting

Let us go back to the light bulb based on carbonized sewing thread as a filament. Edison managed to get it working inside a vacuum. This made his first practical light bulb and Edison used carbonized sewing threads until 1880.

Let us say that you see the possibilities of such an invention and sign a contract to pay Edison $11.5 million Plus $89 million on delivery of a working prototype that lasted a specified period of time...plus 5% royalties up to $1 billion. You get everything including the patent on using carbonized thread in your light bulb.

After such a contract is delivered and tested to meet specs by an expert up to the $11.5 million point and you have been given the vacuum pump that can make such a light bulb practical, what complaint could you possibly have?

You are "sitting on top of the world".

...that is until you realize that maybe a tungsten filament would make a better light bulb...Whoops, you don't own the patent on the tungsten filament...

You might say to yourself, "Oh Darn". or "Heavens to Betsy".

Edison would reply "He He He".

Please notice that Rossi has said many times something to the effect that there are a wide range of possible LENR devices.
What does this mean? It is a notice to investors; "Don't just patent one approach and think you own the whole industry."

Let us say that you have a patent for one method of combining Li with H. Does that mean that you have the rights to another patent that improves on your patent?
Compared to the number of LENR patents that will exist on 2050, we have barely scratched the surface.
Even having the patent on the light bulb using tungsten doesn't protect you from the LED light bulb.

d

Is it possible that Rossi is witholding some information that is undocumented on how to achieve higher performance, a 'secret sauce' or tweak?

IS it possible that IH wants to get ready for a court fight and so declaring that the 1MGW plant (that the customer bought 3 more of) is not working as a way of undermining his reputation before a court trial?

Is it possible that the source is just another Rossi-hater who is going to twist any Rossi news to discredit him no matter what the actual results are?

frankwtu: Thanks for the links to Woodford. The articles are brief and I know nothing about the events described, so I have no comment. Except I will say that I.H. is working with other researchers, not just Rossi. I have no idea what they might have said or shown to Woodford but they might have shown work by other researchers.

The quote beginning: "When asked why he invested in LENR, Darden noted that he is aware of nearly 50 reported positive cold fusion tests . . ." is correct. I know of a lot more than 50 positive cold fusion tests.

Jed

Yes, 'more than 50 positive cold fusion tests' sounds good, but would they pass the 'sceptic' test I wonder.

Richard

Yes its possible; but I think the contract is quite restrictive about the IP, it looks like IH will own all the related IP if they win the case, if not, anything is possible. If the IP is worth having then LENR is real, if its not then either LENR is not real or IH has new IP which trumps that of Rossi.

Best regards
Frank