me356: Reactor parameters [part 2]

Indeed the cloud chamber views would seem to be more compelling than a power or calorimetry measurement and questions about hidden power, hoses, or whatever.

In addition a neutron detector can help make the case as in this video from a while ago for a Fusor demonstration:

@axil Despite your impression, those of us running experiments do pay attention to your suggestions. However, "the devil is in the details". One word in your statement is the key here: Scientific. A simple (affordable) cloud chamber might be able to tolerate the cell heat for a short time. But such a device isn't likely to produce useful data. A truly scientific instrument requires both active cooling (for continuous operation) and a calibrated and preferably controllable magnetic field.

Such devices are not easily available. One suitable unit can be seen here: http://www.cloudylabs.fr/wp/labs/
It's pretty bulky and would be hard to position near the reactor. The price is estimated to be as much as 4000 €.

Here's a smaller one made in UK that could be under US$1000 including shipping:
http://www.lascells.com/products/product.php?s=cloud-chamber
Donations gratefully accepted of course...

What about the online "home made" cloud chambers? Isopropyl alcohol and fish tank and dry ice, if I recall the recipe correctly.

Thanks

Even Amazon has some of these:

http://www.amazon.com/CL-Cloud-Chamber-Kit/dp/B0168SCCJO

http://www.amazon.com/Cloud-Chamber-Case-of-3/dp/B017IKA7ZC/ref=pd_sim_sbs_328_5?ie=UTF8&dpID=31zmfWmnMaL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&refRID=0DTRWG9VM06WEQKEXC3D

Quote from magicsound

@axil Despite your impression, those of us running experiments do pay attention to your suggestions. However, "the devil is in the details". One word in your statement is the key here: Scientific. A simple (affordable) cloud chamber might be able to tolerate the cell heat for a short time. But such a device isn't likely to produce useful data. A truly scientific instrument requires both active cooling (for continuous operation) and a calibrated and preferably controllable magnetic field.

Such devices are not easily available. One suitable unit can be seen here: http://www.cloudylabs.fr/wp/labs/
It's pretty bulky and would be hard to position near the reactor. The price is estimated to be as much as 4000 €. Donations gratefully accepted of course...

Let me push back here. That device is an excellent piece of gear, but what might apply here: "perfect is the enemy of good."

A homemade unit using dry ice cooling without magnetism could show subatomic particle quantity rather than quality. Such a demo would impress the common man, increase LENR followship, and might be a means to generate significant additional funding for a high quality scientific device.

MFMP might enen be able to get into a national lab to sort out subatomic particle behavior when sufficient curiosity is generated among the people.

In any case, an entry level cloud chamber is alway better than a calorimeter to detect real time LENR activity. Real time is very impressive, IMHO.

axil wrote: "A homemade unit using dry ice cooling without magnetism could show subatomic particle quantity rather than quality."

The closest source to me for dry ice is about 15 miles each way. It may last for 12 hours in a freezer (filling the house with CO2 meanwhile). The cloud chamber might operate for 15 minutes per charge. My experiments last a week or more, and I haven't time to go fetch dry ice every day or two. All told, it's not a practical idea given the circumstances. Perhaps at a later time it could be done as a casual test. Or maybe someone will donate for the Lascells unit.

Meanwhile we have three serious spectrometers set up and working, covering the range of <10 KeV to 4 MeV, plus the two bubble detectors. We're also recording data from two GMC's with different tubes and sensitivities. And continuous video from two cameras. The data collected from GS5-3 will be around a terabyte before we're done, and someone has to analyze that to make it useful. We'd be lost in this sea of data without the stellar work done by Ecco and Webbie - Thanks!

Crazy Russian Hacker's YouTube video on making dry ice. If perfect is the enemy of good, is crazy its best friend?

I have also wanted to get a Cloud Chamber long time ago, but I've had a similar issue as Alan.
All in all, I do not see it as "must have" at the moment. I am convinced enough about nuclear reactions. I am interested in the excess heat - that is also there.
Theoretical research can take at least next 20 years..

I hope that next week will show some more fruits as my new reactor is finished. This one might be candidate for 3-5kW prototype (note that heater can output just around 1kW).
It looks very differently than any other I have built previously. There should be nearly no heat loss. My hopes are that it can run for at least week with excess heat.
You can take it, plug it into system in notime and start it - can produce excess heat in 5-10 minutes. If this is true, we will see.

Quote from magicsound

axil wrote: "A homemade unit using dry ice cooling without magnetism could show subatomic particle quantity rather than quality."

The closest source to me for dry ice is about 15 miles each way. It may last for 12 hours in a freezer (filling the house with CO2 meanwhile). The cloud chamber might operate for 15 minutes per charge. My experiments last a week or more, and I haven't time to go fetch dry ice every day or two. All told, it's not a practical idea given the circumstances. Perhaps at a later time it could be done as a casual test. Or maybe someone will donate for the Lascells unit.

Meanwhile we have three serious spectrometers set up and working, covering the range of <10 KeV to 4 MeV, plus the two bubble detectors. We're also recording data from two GMC's with different tubes and sensitivities. And continuous video from two cameras. The data collected from GS5-3 will be around a terabyte before we're done, and someone has to analyze that to make it useful. We'd be lost in this sea of data without the stellar work done by Ecco and Webbie - Thanks!

They say a picture is worth a thousand words and a picture of particle tracks are worth a ton of data to the lay person.

A bag of ice might be had at your local beer distributor or grocery store. Using an ice cream making technique, if the bottom of the cloud chamber is insulated to avoid a high melt rate, it might be possible to get some particle detection performance out of water ice if some "CALCIUM CHLORIDE" ice melt is added. We might be able to get a low temperature below -29C. That low temperature might be good enough for alcohol cooling.

This low temperature is the same as produced by a Electronic Cloud Chamber uses a thermoelectric ("Peltier") / air cooling system. So -30C is good enough.

See

http://www.nothinglabs.com/electroniccloudchamber/

Quote from magicsound

The closest source to me for dry ice is about 15 miles each way. It may last for 12 hours in a freezer (filling the house with CO2 meanwhile).

If one has a minus 80 (C) in one's garage as I did until recently, one can keep all the dry ice needed indefinitely. The CO2 in the house is an issue, make sure you allow it to sublime somewhere allowing this rather dense gas to drain downward and out.

Making one's own dry ice with CO2 in cylinders is straightforward. CO2 cylinders are relatively cheap and cheap to refill, used in the draft beer retail industry, last I checked.

For preliminary data, a dry ice cloud chamber is a viable start. Better to know something than know nothing. Better than having to wait for the cancer latency period (typically 5 to 30 years in humans) runs its course.

Hi me356
Just a heads-up that Mark Leclair and his associate of Nanospire Inc. suffered sickness from neutron emissions whilst conducting research and development of their super cavitation technology.
They are pioneers in the field of cavitation techniques and may have some insight into the physics going on within LENR.
Surface implosions and re-entrant jets were features of super cavitation. This may be the basis for surface craters in nickel, that we see on some of the images released of LENR activity.

Quote from magicsound

A simple (affordable) cloud chamber might be able to tolerate the cell heat for a short time. But such a device isn't likely to produce useful data. A truly scientific instrument requires both active cooling (for continuous operation) and a calibrated and preferably controllable magnetic field.

I have sympathized with Axil's wish for a cloud chamber to be used. Experimenters have their reasons for prioritizing other methods of measurement, and this is fine. But I'll mention that a practical way to use the cloud chamber would be to place the opened fuel charge in the chamber after the live run is over, rather than during the run, when heat is being applied. I recall that this is the way that Piantelli has used a cloud chamber, and it produced interesting results.

MFMP, here is an idea to handle particle detection through those days long experiments that you are currently doing.

I know from years of experience that a six pack of beer can be kept cold for days on end if the six pack is placed in a styrofoam cooler full of ice. The same technique can be used for long term cloud chamber cooling.

Build a styrofoam insulated box that has a large amount of ice (with ice melt added) stored. Place the cloud chamber inside. Put a high intensity LED light inside the box with a small television camera to show particle tracks pointed at the supercooled volume.

Rapping everything in aluminum foil would help alot.

The completely enclosing insulation will keep the chamber cooled for a very long time and still allow particles to get to the cloud chamber and monitored on television.

You can run a temperature profile experiment very easily to see how long the cool temperature will endure before you go all the way to final construction.

Quote from me356

The latest experiment generated high neutron flux while no measurable gamma.

How do you get a neutron flux without gammas? Let them out through the window?

Quote from me356

Although I have measured neutrons for a few times when reactor was turned off (for period of days) after such period reactors are always clean and nothing seems to be activated.
But a lot of investigation is needed.

Yes, indeed. In all neutron captures you get high energy (several MeV) primary gammas. In many cases the resulting nuclide is unstable and will decay after a short or long time.

Cloud chamber is only qualitative tool, it's quite uncomfortable and nonselective. Also muons are artifact of Holmlid fusion, which runs at high density energies of infrared laser pulses only. It has no meaningful usage at me356's experiments

Quote from Zephir_AWT

Cloud chamber is only qualitative tool, it's quite uncomfortable and nonselective. Also muons are artifact of Holmlid fusion, which runs at high density energies of infrared laser pulses only. It has no meaningful usage at me356's experiments

When we are operation on a tight budget, compromises must be made. Regarding muons in me356 experiments, this assertion of no muon production must be tested through experiment.

I am certain you, Zephir, cannot know this with any certainty, unless you are closely tied to Holmlid's work AND happen to be familiar with the latest and unpublished procedures me356 is using.

Delighted to be proven wrong on that, by the way!

Also the muons aren't detected by cloud chamber, but by scintillation detectors: http://www.instructables.com/i…mis-muons-in-a-simple-can

Peter Ekstrom: Mostly all detectors are limited with around 2-5 MeV, including scintillators. This is reason why we might not see it and reason for word "measurable".

Quote

It looks very differently than any other I have built previously. There should be nearly no heat loss. My hopes are that it can run for at least week with excess heat.

You stated earlier that you had COP=2, and certainly COP > 1.5.

If COP = 1.5 decent insulation (nearly no heat loss) will lead to thermal runaway quickly without electrical input since the reaction is outputting 50% power above that radiated in the vanilla system.

if you have stable temperature with nearly no heat loss then you know your COP is low, maybe < 1.1

So it will be fascinating to see what happens when you do this.

Best wishes, Tom