Safety: Lithium Intoxication - Lithium Side Effects ?

  • You make it more difficult than necessary - nuclear physics is exceedingly easy.


    It is really very simple: All charged heavy particles moving with MeV energies cause CE in even-even nuclei and in most other nuclides. You just need an E2 component in a transition from the ground state. And you don't need to pass the Coulomb barrier! The excited state will decay with gamma.


    Would that it were really so! Once we step through the elegant picture of nuclear physics presented by the mathematical models, there's no doubt a swarming buzz of contradictory data saying all kinds of crazy things which must be tackled statistically. We should try to keep things simple, but not simplistic.


    Beta electrons, and Auger electrons arising from electron capture, are not heavy charged particles. I'll gently nudge you again -- can you think of any reason a priori that would exclude these processes from occurring, in the same manner of the CE objection with regard to energetic alphas? We can acknowledge the following difficulties up front, so hopefully they won't be a distraction: there are few positrons of which I am aware in LENR experiments, as might be expected as a competing channel for electron capture, and there is little in the way of de-excitation gammas following upon relaxation of excited levels after beta decay. Are there any other experimental reasons (in contrast to theoretical ones) to exclude beta decay and electron capture?


    As an aside, I'm curious if your understanding is that there is only a single channel for the relaxation of Coulomb excitation. What if something analogous to internal conversion were the norm and happening much more often than previously thought, and gammas are just a rare channel that is easy to detect?


    About the uranium paper. The results are sensational and will give a Nobel prize if correct. It would need independent confirmation. I do not think that will happen. Changing half lives in nuclear physics has been looked for many times without luck. It would of course be nice in we could shorten the half lives of trans-uranium elements.


    Non-serious question: why is the Dash study not an independent confirmation of the claims in the 1991 Barker patent? Are Dash et al. the wrong scientists to do independent confirmations? More serious question: have you read any specific studies that failed to change half-lives, or are you passing along a generalization you've encountered in the course of your career?


    I don't see how shortening the half lives of elements helps. Sure, the end products should be stable-ish, but the massive increase in radioactivity caused by "speeding up decay" sounds rather nasty and a route for atomic bomb makers to salivate over.


    This is an interesting point. My first thought is that there's no guarantee that shortening half-lives helps anything or will be useful. Perhaps doing that is useless, or dangerous, or opens up a pandora's box. As a matter of basic science, perhaps you'll agree that it would be interesting to investigate nonetheless.


    If you recall the earlier discussion on the distinction between "decay" and "induced reactions," maybe it's not really the case that the half-lives of uranium isotopes are being shortened. Perhaps the branching ratios are changing as well, e.g., towards aneutronic decay modes. Coming from another angle, if the half-lives of uranium can be shorted, maybe they can be shortened in other, lighter isotopes whose decay profile is less difficult to work with, leading to usable quantities of heat, some helium, and perhaps even electricity.


    I don't understand what you are saying there, Eric. I assume you are talking of strictly Ni-H systems. It appears few of the recent efforts qualify as strictly that. Instead we are seeing a lot of lithium present. Surely Li-7 is not "an alpha emitter", but its proton adduct Be-8 is solely that. I mentioned recently the parallels between the Lipinsky Li + p system and these thermal "Ni-H" with lithium devices such as you are discussing. Peter Eckstrom is pointing out, it appears, that high MeV alphas are not [likely] present in those systems, otherwise we would be seeing neutrons and gammas... if I am reading his point correctly.


    Sorry about that, Longview. I was thinking within my own mental framework. Yes, there's also the possibility of p+7Li → 8Be* → 2 * 4He that some people are considering. I've given up on that line of thought for anything more than a side channel at the moment, as it's not clear to me what would accelerate the protons sufficiently to overcome the Coulomb barrier, and I don't find the collective LENR models very promising. But that's just a personal assessment.


    Peter is saying that if there were MeV alphas in a NiH system with lithium, you'd get gamma emission from the excitation and then relaxation of lithium and nickel through inelastic collisions from the alpha particles. Presumably that gamma emission would be directly proportional to the amount of heat that is generated.


    Kindly bring us up to speed on your conclusions. It will help the field, it will advance the work, it will educate, inform, disarm critics and disabuse many of us of illusions all at once.


    I'm just a software developer, without training in physics beyond an introductory course in college. Don't take my word on anything without checking it yourself or with someone whose knowledge of physics you trust.

  • As an aside, I'm curious if your understanding is that there is only a single channel for the relaxation of Coulomb excitation. What if something analogous to internal conversion were the norm and happening much more often than previously thought, and gammas are just a rare channel that is easy to detect?


    More serious question: have you read any specific studies that failed to change half-lives, or are you passing along a generalization you've encountered in the course of your career?


    Yes. The established cases are very small chemical effects for electron capture. I have read 1000s of papers when I evaluated nuclear data for Nuclear Data Sheets.
    *
    The point of shortening half-life: yes the activity increases but if the half-life is short one can keep it under control.
    *
    For first excited 2+ states you do not need to worry about internal conversion. Besides it is calculable to a few % since the matrix elements (the tricky structure bit) cancel. Internal conversion occurs for high multipolarity and low energy and it is very well understood.

  • Yes. The established cases are very small chemical effects for electron capture. I have read 1000s of papers when I evaluated nuclear data for Nuclear Data Sheets.


    Chemical effects in grounded targets under equilibrium conditions? Or chemical effects under all circumstances, including under non-equilibrium conditions, when there is a buildup of static charge on the target, current running through it, the application of a strong magnetic field, etc.? I.e., are the experimental conditions you're familiar with general and transferable to LENR experiments?

  • Chemical effects in grounded targets under equilibrium conditions? Or chemical effects under all circumstances, including under non-equilibrium conditions, when there is a buildup of static charge on the target, current running through it, the application of a strong magnetic field, etc.? I.e., are the experimental conditions you're familiar with general and transferable to LENR experiments?


    I don't understand what you mean, but there is maybe a misunderstanding. I am talking about spontaneous decay, and that has a very specific finger print and half-life. If you disturb a nucleus hard enough, you will get nuclear reactions and you will get new products. But that is not decay which you can associate with a half-life.

  • See https://patentscope.wipo.int/s…30/PAMPH/WO2014189799.pdf


    A. download the 9-04-15 "corrected" pdf of some 141 pp.
    B. skip the first ~20 pages of questionable theory


    See all of the conditions that incidentally Eric Walker is asking about, taken to experimental ends that show very large increases in nuclear reaction rates between protons and lithium targets under numerous conditions, including positive, negative and alternating bias voltages, and including magnetic field applications. And many other experimental conditions as well. The data presented are substantial, for simplicity and time I recommend scanning the many results tables. The Q values get to the thousands toward the end of those tables.

  • Peter said "But that is not decay which you can associate with a half-life. "


    "Spontaneous nuclear decay" has an inherent assumption that "spontaneous" means "independent of chemical, physical and temperature conditions".
    Of course there have been no measurements in the combination of conditions that Eric Walker suggests, especially not the recent LENR conditions where researchers are struggling to get a stable LENR environment.



    Cynically I might say 'spontaneous' is synonymous with 'miraculous' because I have seen not much theory of why it happens and any generalised mathematical calculation that shows why some isotopes have long halflives and others short.
    It is a bit like the old 'spontaneous generation' that preceded Pasteur.
    The word is just a sign of the depth of our knowledge of how the nucleus holds together.


    Dash in his early papers did use the phrase "accelerated decay' but what he meant was 'apparently accelerated'.
    I think he was just challenging a certain paradigm by using this phrasing..something to do with being from the West Coast?
    Your explanation that this apparent acceleration might be due to alternative non-'spontaneous' nuclear reactions caused by changes in conditions
    is plausible.
    We know that U-235 with a halflife of 704 million years(measured under a limited set of conditions) can disappear in a flash given different conditions

  • I don't understand what you mean, but there is maybe a misunderstanding. I am talking about spontaneous decay, and that has a very specific finger print and half-life. If you disturb a nucleus hard enough, you will get nuclear reactions and you will get new products. But that is not decay which you can associate with a half-life.


    The confusion was my fault — I used the word "target," which does not apply in the case of a spontaneous decay. It is great that you have been exposed to this topic in such depth. Paradigmnoia has also pointed out the distinction between spontaneous "decay" and induced "reaction," and I have no reason to challenge the common usage. This is equivalent to the distinction between a half-life (for decays) and a cross-section (for reactions). In obvious cases the distinction is clear and useful. In the cases we're considering here, it feels too binary. Consider electron capture. There is a flux of electrons that pass through the nucleus, which has a density, i.e., the electron density. The spontaneous electron capture decay happens when one of the inner shell electrons passes through the nuclear volume and is captured by a proton in the nucleus via the weak interaction. If the electron density, i.e., incident flux, were greater, the probability amplitude of spontaneous electron capture would be higher. Now let the electrons in the chemical environment impinge upon the nuclear volume an infinitesimal amount more than they would in the typical case. The electron density is now an infinitesimal amount larger, and the probability of an electron capture just a little higher than it would be in the well-known case. Now have the chemical environment impinge just a little more. Here we're dealing not with a binary situation — spontaneous decay or induced reaction — but something in between. We have a slider we can adjust, which gradually changes the likelihood of a given outcome. We have a continuous variable that shifts the analysis from one using calculations involving half-lives to one with calculations involving fluxes and cross-sections. In our thought experiment, half-lives, on one hand, and fluxes and cross-sections, on the other, are overlapping concepts.


    There are studies that have looked at the effects of the chemical environment on inducing reactions, i.e., by increasing the pressure, or by heating up the material, and so on. As you mention, the conclusion is that such variables have only a very small effect. Are we to assume that the studies have been comprehensive and have looked at every possible scenario that might be used to move that slider? Shall we do so in the face of suggestive evidence to the contrary?

  • We know that U-235 with a halflife of 704 million years(measured under a limited set of conditions) can disappear in a flash given different conditions


    Do we? I don't. Please give a reference!


    There are studies that have looked at the effects of the chemical environment on inducing reactions, i.e., by increasing the pressure, or by heating up the material, and so on. As you mention, the conclusion is that such variables have only a very small effect. Are we to assume that the studies have been comprehensive and have looked at every possible scenario that might be used to move that slider? Shall we do so in the face of suggestive evidence to the contrary?


    Yes, it's a dead end. You can only marginally change the half-life of spontaneous decay. And only electron capture (not alpha, beta-, gamma) by changing the probability that there is an electron in the nucleus. These electrons will mostly be inner shell s (l=0) electrons, and you do not change these much by chemical means. Of course, if you strip the atom of all its electrons and beta+ is not energetically allowed the nucleus becomes stable.


    Here is Wikipedia's take on the subject:
    "Chemical bonds can also affect the rate of electron capture to a small degree (in general, less than 1%) depending on the proximity of electrons to the nucleus. For example, in 7Be, a difference of 0.9% has been observed between half-lives in metallic and insulating environments.[8][/sup] This relatively large effect is due to the fact that beryllium is a small atom whose valence electrons are close to the nucleus."

  • @ Peter Ekstrom


    Thank you for the links above. I started at the Stelson & McGowan paper, because Ni is the predominant element in the fuel. From first reading, I think a Coulomb excitation signal would be very difficult to detect. The characteristic gamma peaks for the even-numbered Ni isotopes are shown as only ~10 gammas per micro Coulomb of beam current (3.12 × 10^12 particles) for alphas with energy ~4 MeV. That is measured with a 7.5 cm NaI crystal a at 5 cm from the target.


    We don't know the rate of a reaction that might be producing energetic alphas, but the energy yields of the candidates you proposed could be calculated. I suspect that a yield of 10^12 reactions per second would be easily measurable as heat. But at lower reaction rates, say 10^12 per minute, the gamma signal would likely be below background, even with 10 cm of lead around a NaI detector, at 18 cm from the hot reactor.


    To make the measurement even more problematic, the peak for 58Ni (68% natural abundance) is shown as 1460 KeV. It is thus indistinguishable from the Potassium-40 line that's pervasive in the environment.

  • robert bryant wrote:
    We know that U-235 with a halflife of 704 million years(measured under a limited set of conditions) can disappear in a flash given different conditions


    Do we? I don't. Please give a reference!


    I assume Robert Bryant is referring to the structure and function of a nuclear weapon. Chain reaction of rapidly increasing neutron flux triggers an immense reduction in "half-life", essentially from 7.04 X 10^8 years to perhaps something close to a microsecond. But, from previous comments I suspect Peter Eckstrom does not like to identify that process as "half-life reduction" at least not in this context. I could be mistaken.

  • Yes, it's a dead end. You can only marginally change the half-life of spontaneous decay. And only electron capture (not alpha, beta-, gamma) by changing the probability that there is an electron in the nucleus. These electrons will mostly be inner shell s (l=0) electrons, and you do not change these much by chemical means. Of course, if you strip the atom of all its electrons and beta+ is not energetically allowed the nucleus becomes stable.


    I fear we're going around in circles. I'm suggesting that perhaps electron capture can be induced by modifying the electron density in the nuclear volume. You're saying it's a dead end, because experiments thus far have shown only negligible changes. I'm then saying that perhaps we haven't looked in every corner. You're then coming back and saying that it's a dead end, because experiments thus far have shown only negligible changes. Perhaps I'm missing your point.


    About electron capture being the only thing we can alter — this again comes back to a point about what we've been able to do thus far. Do you agree that the Gamow theory of alpha decay takes into account the net electrostatic charge in the Coulomb barrier and in the nuclear volume, and that minute changes result in decay rates that span many, many orders of magnitude? Consider that the decay rates of different thorium isotopes range from 1e-5 seconds (220Th), on one hand, to 4.4e17 seconds (232Th), on the other. Although these differences largely go back to differences in nuclear stability, my understanding is that some also go back to differences in Coulomb barrier width, e.g., at the poles. If you could get a significantly higher (or lower) electron density, a change in alpha decay will surely result. I would be surprised if beta decay did not undergo a similar response to a large change in electron density. Intuitively it is obvious that it would.


    How would you get a large change in the electron density? Surely not by letting the material under test remain under equilibrium conditions. Run as much current as you can through it (e.g., the exploding wires experiments). Cause "channeling" to occur. Blast it with a powerful laser. Whatever you do, don't bother measuring the effects on electron density when hardly anything is happening, for if you do, you'll get the predictable result, which is not much.


    What we have now is experiment, telling us that we haven't figured out how to change the electron density under controlled conditions yet. On this we agree. Our disagreement lies in whether this is something that lies in the realm of possibility. You're conjecture is that the way is closed; mine is that we're already seeing it at work in LENR. Both positions are based on conjecture.

  • I assume Robert Bryant is referring to the structure and function of a nuclear weapon. Chain reaction of rapidly increasing neutron flux triggers an immense reduction in "half-life", essentially from 7.04 X 10^8 years to perhaps something close to a microsecond. But, from previous comments I suspect Peter Eckstrom does not like to identify that process as "half-life reduction" at least not in this context. I could be mistaken.


    It has nothing to do with what I want. There are well defined phenomena in nuclear physics, and it is up to the nuclear physics community to define them. Using the wrong term only creates confusion and makes communication impossible. Spontaneous decay is as one (radioactive decay), nuclear reactions another. The process in a nuclear bomb is neutron induced fission which is not spontaneous and is defined as a nuclear reaction.


    Wikipedia:
    "Radioactive decay, also known as nuclear decay or radioactivity, is the process by which the nucleus of an unstable atom loses energy by emitting radiation, including alpha particles, beta particles, gamma rays and conversion electrons. A material that spontaneously emits such radiation is considered radioactive."


    "In nuclear physics and nuclear chemistry, a nuclear reaction is semantically considered to be the process in which two nuclei, or else a nucleus of an atom and a subatomic particle (such as a proton, neutron, or high energy electron) from outside the atom, collide to produce one or more nuclides that are different from the nuclide(s) that began the process. Thus, a nuclear reaction must cause a transformation of at least one nuclide to another."

  • Thank you for the links above. I started at the Stelson & McGowan paper, because Ni is the predominant element in the fuel. From first reading, I think a Coulomb excitation signal would be very difficult to detect. The characteristic gamma peaks for the even-numbered Ni isotopes are shown as only ~10 gammas per micro Coulomb of beam current (3.12 × 10^12 particles) for alphas with energy ~4 MeV. That is measured with a 7.5 cm NaI crystal a at 5 cm from the target.


    We don't know the rate of a reaction that might be producing energetic alphas, but the energy yields of the candidates you proposed could be calculated. I suspect that a yield of 10^12 reactions per second would be easily measurable as heat. But at lower reaction rates, say 10^12 per minute, the gamma signal would likely be below background, even with 10 cm of lead around a NaI detector, at 18 cm from the hot reactor.


    To make the measurement even more problematic, the peak for 58Ni (68% natural abundance) is shown as 1460 KeV. It is thus indistinguishable from the Potassium-40 line that's pervasive in the environment.


    Your calculation must be wrong. 10 kW (reasonable for a LENR reactor) and the p+Li reaction yields an equivalent alpha particle current of 2 milliA. Stelson does not specify the current but it is from the type of accelerator certainly less than 10 microA. In order not to evaporate the target the current was probably less. For the Se target the current was 0.01 microA, but the authors still get a very nice spectrum (Fig 12).


    The 1460 from 40K is no problem. It is simple background suppression and background measurement.

  • Radioactive nuclids are already unstable and yet it is virtually impossible to change their disintegration rate using chemical means.
    Yet there are those who believe that by use of what essentially amounts to chemical means it is possible to transmute stable nuclids.
    But this is not particularly surprising, they are not many and there are a lot of very different beliefs, one for every taste.

  • What we have now is experiment, telling us that we haven't figured out how to change the electron density under controlled conditions yet. On this we agree. Our disagreement lies in whether this is something that lies in the realm of possibility. You're conjecture is that the way is closed; mine is that we're already seeing it at work in LENR. Both positions are based on conjecture.


    No, the classic nuclear physics conjecture is also a very thorough
    theoretical understanding of the nucleus
    . Do you believe all nuclear
    physicists since Rutherford are idiots? Yes, some nuclear physics
    knowledge may have to be modified, but then we need better data on
    the deviations. The LENR community tries to explain dubious excess
    energy results by abandoning


    * The integrity of the Coulomb barrier
    * That excited nuclear states decay by gamma-emission
    * That nuclear reactions create radioactive nuclei
    * That the half-life in nuclear decay can be changed at will


    This is very well established scientific fundamental knowledge and we
    need very strong data to change it
    . The LENR community needs to adhere
    to the scientific method (e.g. accepting criticism without sulking) and
    modern measurement techniques (forget GM-counters and cloud chambers).
    Without this LENR will continue to be a fringe science or, worse, become
    a pseudo-science.


    Added:
    The magic to fix the problems above is a catalyst. This is very well established and understood in chemistry involving the electrons of a chemical reaction. It is, however, very difficult to se how a chemical catalyst can influence the nucleus with a size five orders of magnitude smaller (0.1 nm, 1 fm) than an atom and involving six orders of magnitude higher energies (eV, MeV). Quantum mechanical effects cause limitations for very small systems. Or should quantum mechanics be added to the list above? Also, in order to build up the energy needed we also need to abandon the second law of thermodynamics. Not much left of physics then! :)

    • Official Post

    Peter said:


    [quotThe LENR community needs to adhere to the scientific method (e.g. accepting criticism without sulking) and modern measurement techniques (forget GM-counters and cloud chambers). Without this LENR will continue to be a fringe science or, worse, become a pseudo-science.][/quote]


    I guess every science has its darker corners and crazier places. Mathematics, nutrition, medicine, psychology, chemistry (as Alchemy). I see no reason why nuclear physics should be immune. The problem is that the bigger the hope the stronger the longing. As our friend Hank has shown in the ME356 threads - not that Hank is a fringe science devotee in particular, but he does provide with a good example of the power of hope.


  • Whenever someone says something to the effect of, "we already know all about that," my ears perk up, and I want to find out ways that they're significantly in error. :)


    I don't think nuclear physicists since Rutherford are idiots. I think they're stubborn souls who must be forced against their will and inclination to look at some interesting data they haven't been considering. I assume this is how physics has always progressed, so I don't take much issue with the situation. You're here, despite your many objections and complaints, so at least there's that.


    The suggestion here is not that physicists circumvent physics and arrive at the conclusions in your bullet points without proper investigation. It's that the assumptions behind them are a little too hard-and-fast and are worth taking a further look at. You're a professor and I'm a hobbyist. You're bound by the rigors of the scientific method, and I'm free to speculate about eye-catching data I think physicists have set aside somewhat arbitrarily. With regard to my suggestion about modifying decay rates, in no instance am I saying something like, "this is truth, and you and other physicists are ignoring it." I'm filling the role of a lawyer presenting the scenario in the best light I can and calling out any unwarranted assumptions that may be tripping people up for a further assessment.


    Obviously the LENR community must adhere to the scientific method and step up its game. There are many, many poorly done experiments. I'm very sympathetic with your complaints about sulking and about GM-counters. I do like the idea of a cloud chamber, not as a method of providing any proof, but as a nice, see-it-with-your-own-eyes device that would be interesting to see in operation. But I don't suggest writing up a paper about a cloud chamber.


    You are being generous by calling LENR only fringe science. There are many in mainstream science who will aver that it is and has always been a pseudo science. Thankfully that hasn't stopped the hobbyists that are now starting to get involved.


    By the way, here's at least one possibility for increasing the electron density of the nuclear volume without loads of energy. I'm just a hobbyist without training in physics; perhaps there are possibilities you guys have missed!


    The magic to fix the problems above is a catalyst. This is very well established and understood in chemistry involving the electrons of a chemical reaction. It is, however, very difficult to se how a chemical catalyst can influence the nucleus with a size five orders of magnitude smaller (0.1 nm, 1 fm) than an atom and involving six orders of magnitude higher energies (eV, MeV). Quantum mechanical effects cause limitations for very small systems. Or should quantum mechanics be added to the list above? Also, in order to build up the energy needed we also need to abandon the second law of thermodynamics. Not much left of physics then!


    Here's one relevant question I have: if you draw hydrogen into palladium using electrolysis, will the electron that is still weakly bound to the hydrogen atom that now resides in an an interstice stray part of the time over into the nuclear volume of neighboring lattice sites? What happens to the shape of the orbit when a magnetic field is applied?


  • Quantum mechanical effects cause
    limitations for very small systems. Or should quantum mechanics be added
    to the list above? Also, in order to build up the energy needed we also
    need to abandon the second law of thermodynamics. Not much left of
    physics then!


    It may look that way to some, including classical physicists (if any such remain today). Actually it is quite clear that quantum mechanics smears or otherwise obviates 'limitations' of many sorts. That is the essence of QM. It all starts with deBroglie's "empirical" equation, where lambda = h/p = h/mv. The only constant in that equation is Planck's. The other parameters are not so 'limited'. And of course it is at the smallest dimensions that QM most prevails.


    Are you sure you mean the 2nd Law? No one I know of is suggesting in any way that the LENR reactions are not energetically favorable and/or that entropy is somehow reversed in promoting them. Catalysis simply indicates some means of lowering activation energy. The "coulomb barrier" is exactly an activation energy "hill" that can be surmounted by direct assault, or it can be undermined just as in any otherwise favorable chemical reaction.

  • Your calculation must be wrong. 10 kW (reasonable for a LENR reactor) and the p+Li reaction yields an equivalent alpha particle current of 2 milliA. Stelson does not specify the current but it is from the type of accelerator certainly less than 10 microA. In order not to evaporate the target the current was probably less. For the Se target the current was 0.01 microA, but the authors still get a very nice spectrum (Fig 12).


    My analysis was based on the plots on page 3 of Stelson, showing the counts per micro Coulomb of beam current. The count data for Ni isotopes are almost four orders of magnitude lower than for Se (which is not present in the reactor).


    In the Glowstick experiments to date, we are seeing net power (if any) of less than 100 watts. My conclusion was meant to show that in the Glowstick experiments, this reaction signal would not have been measurable. If we're able to generate even 1 kW in a Glowstick, such a signal would be possible to detect, and we'll watch for it. In such an event, there would be lots of other signals as well, and possibly a melt-down of reactor components.

  • By the way, here's at least one possibility for increasing the electron density of the nuclear volume without loads of energy. I'm just a hobbyist without training in physics; perhaps there are possibilities you guys have missed!


    Thanks Eric! There is one interesting point in the discussion: The tunnel equivalence point = distance of emission limit of alpha particle. This implies that everything that changes the potential inside this radius may influence the nucleus.

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