Rossi states the ERV report is based on 12 600 000 datapoints, which means it is likely pretty "continous" measurments of both output Steam and input water data to from the e-cat plant.
and since Penon is a nuclear engineer he knows well closed cycle water/steam systems as used in any nuclear power plants. Which means he should know excactly what data to collect and evaluate.
I have heard your arguments, to which I have replied and/or rebutted with multiple sources,
Before citing any source one has to understand it. I have not seen any serious point from you. That's why I haven't replied. Want to make a second attempt ?
From Mats blog:The water heated by the MW plant was circulating in a closed loop
CLOSED CIRCULATING LOOP!ALL WATER IS RETURNED!!!
This is why the activities of the customer next door are so relevant. What happened over there in the closed off space during the test may have affected what happened with the e-cat. Utility bills can be pulled from the neighboring space. I don't know how these could be hidden if a court orders them to be retrieved. The power and gas companies have the power usage next door on record.
The power records of commercial entities are (apparently) semi-public documents, counsel only have to ask.
@radombit
To summarize: The Optris is a type of spectral radiometer. It can use the spectral radiance it can see in its limited spectral bandwidth to calculate the blackbody equivalent temperature appropriate to the radiance detected in its limited bandwidth. A user function for ε is entered to adjust the calculated blackbody temperature to a greybody equivalent. This allows for correct determination of a surface temperature when the user function ε value, specific to the Optris and its spectral detection bandwidth, is correct for the spectral radiance in the same band of the object, and detected by the Optris.
Calculating the total emissive power of the same object requires knowing and integrating the total radiance in all IR bands, even those that cannot be "seen" by the Optris camera. In a perfect greybody, or a perfect blackbody, this value will be effectively the same as the value for ε used for the Oprtris to detect the same temperature.
In a blackbody, ε is 1.0, and each wavelength produces the maximum power possible for that wavelength due to a given temperature. A greybody produces a portion of the total possible, (less than an ε of 1.0), but at the same percentage of the maximum power in all wavelengths due to a given temperature. If the greybody ε is 0.5, for example, then the ε for all wavelengths is 0.5.
However, alumina is not a greybody or blackbody. It is a selective emitter, and therefore the radiance in each wavelength at a given temperature is not the same, (although they may be similar within local parts of the band immediately adjacent to any one selected area). This means that selecting a band of wavelengths, and determining the correct ε, this ε will not be same for other bands or wavelengths in a different area of the IR spectrum of the alumina. This in effect means that due to the spectral band that the Optris uses, the appropriate ε for determining temperature in that band cannot be applied to the total emissive power calculations. In the case of alumina, the spectral band used by the Optris sees a high emissivity region of alumina, while in shorter and longer IR wavelengths outside of the spectral detection range of the Optris, the alumina is more transparent to IR, and has therefore has a lower emissivity.
Using the emissivity value used for the spectral detection range of the Optris at a given temperature to calculate total emissive power of alumina will over-estimate the power radiated as a function of temperature.
Using the emissivity value required to correctly calculate the total emissive power of alumina (ie: Plot 1) to adjust the Optris calculations of temperature relative to the spectrally detected radiance (between 7.5 to 13 microns) will cause the Oprtis to overestimate the temperature.
Using an overestimated temperature, and the correct total emissivity value will over estimate total emissive power due to temperature.
In a selective emitter, it is possible for the total radiant power to exceed the total emissive power calculated with the correct ε and temperature, possibly substantially. The transmitted radiance must be measured separately in the bands in which it is effectively transmitted, and is dependent on its source IR emission spectrum. Transmitted IR energy can be radiated without heating the object, since it is not absorbed, and can occur outside of the detection band of a spectrally sensitive IR detector (like an Optris).
Just to add some fun:
What if Rossi was his own customer?
Some months before the test started 1000m2 (at same location, but this contains six different buildings) can be found for a rent...
What if Rossi was his own customer?
In the case that you propose, Mr Johnson, president of JM Chemical Products, and Lawyer, would have lied on his affidavit, which would have serious consequences, IMHO
See page 25, Exhibit B
This is the science thread, BTW.
How on earth should one obtain any meaningful results whatsoever from a simulation of a complex setting with such a host of unknown and most likely irreproducible variables?
Sorry, until now I gave due consideration to what Dewey Weaver wrote but this simulation nonsense makes me wonder whether Sifferkol has been right about him all the time.
How on earth should one obtain any meaningful results whatsoever from a simulation of a complex setting with such a host of unknown and most likely irreproducible variables?
This was a question I had immediately after reading the Lugano report around the time it was released.
I ask myself that question every day at work.
@radombit
To summarize: The Optris is a type of spectral radiometer. It can use the spectral radiance it can see in its limited spectral bandwidth to calculate the blackbody equivalent temperature appropriate to the radiance detected in its limited…
Thank you @Paradigmnoia for clear plain English what is the problem when using Optris with alumina. I had no experience with IR measurements before, but from your excerpt, one may conclude the following:
- Optris could be pretty well calibrated for alumina with ready made book values for alumina or (dummy reactor) reference run with known input energy and thermocouples attached BUT BUT....
- If alumina is translucent and active LENR reaction creates any plasma or light, I could guess that there is no way to estimate how much that affects on Optris reading (it would be partly measuring plasma temperature instead of surface) :crazy:
Should we ever rely too much on Optris when measuring active alumina reactor? If this cannot be answered teorethically, one could test by alumina tube with staright tungsten wire inside where half of the tube would be painted from inside with some thermal- but not light conducting paint? (supposing that 'core' temp would be higher than alumina temp)
QuoteA quantum dot—a nanoscale semiconductor device that tightly packs electrons and electron holes—glows a specific color when it is hit with any kind of light.
I had no experience with IR measurements before, but from your excerpt, one may conclude the following:
- Optris could be pretty well calibrated for alumina with ready made book values for alumina or (dummy reactor) reference run with known input energy and thermocouples attached BUT BUT....
- If alumina is translucent and active LENR reaction creates any plasma or light, I could guess that there is no way to estimate how much that affects on Optris reading (it would be partly measuring plasma temperature instead of surface) :crazy:
Should we ever rely too much on Optris when measuring active alumina reactor? If this cannot be answered teorethically, one could test by alumina tube with staright tungsten wire inside where half of the tube would be painted from inside with some thermal- but not light conducting paint? (supposing that 'core' temp would be higher than alumina temp)
Rossi's quark reactor is reported to emit light. This new reactor which puts out half it output as light was based on the hot cat used in the Lugano test. This is a result of the nanoplasmonic nature of the quasiparticles that form during the LENR reaction. The assumption behind the Lugano critique was based on black body behavior of alumina. This assumption could be wrong.
@Argon
There are a few methods available to circumvent the problem of transmitted radiant power not being detectable to a long wave IR camera. The methods vary from complicated to very complicated...depending on implementation.
Three IR cameras, one of shortwave, one of "medium" wave, and one of longwave could be used together.
A blackbody or (more likely) greybody sleeve can be used to absorb and then emit in a broadband IR spectrum of constant wavelength independent emissivity. (This is essentially the HT-2 style). This might even be implemented as a partial sleeve or ring, but has convection issues then. Possibly even a blocking plate could be made to work.
Full water calorimetry, or perhaps airflow calorimetry.
Painting the whole body with high emissivity paint does some weird things sometimes, but could work. Any surface modification may damage the heat transfer characteristics to something outside of the design parameters. Notably, painting a transparent to semitransparent material with high emissivity paint can significantly raise its surface temperature. At some point, the paint may not survive the heat, making a mess of the overall emissivity due to lack of surface homogeneity.
IH experts vs Rossi experts. Stainfree world class PhDs.
IH experts vs Rossi experts. Stainfree world class PhDs.
Deawey I totally agree, except I merely consider these guys as independent experts of different areas. BTW does yours quote represent IH:s or failed VC.s substance of the topic? Yes I still feeel sorry for you as I will when IH discards you when real party starts. tags: [journalists, jury, evidence, IH-spokesperson]
Argon - I'm an IH shareholder. I cannot be discarded. What are you?
Alan - the only last words we've heard lately appear to be from the "customer" who is suddenly nowhere to be found. Rossi and his attorney guaranteed that JM Products was an independent entity with a real heat requirement. They don't call...they don't write.... I hope that everything is okay with the "customer". I understand that the judge may want to meet these folks soon. Perhaps they have already fled to Sweden.
the only last words we've heard lately appear to be from the "customer" who is suddenly nowhere to be found. Rossi and his attorney guaranteed that JM Products was an independent entity with a real heat requirement. They don't call...they don't write.... I hope that everything is okay with the "customer".
Dewey,
If you find this customer, and he goes by the alias Domenico Fioravanti -known as "Cures" on Cobraf, he would be the same "NATO Colonel" Rossi used in his comically staged 28 Oct 2011 "military customer acceptance test". Gary Wright use to have a picture of him on his "ShutRossiDown" site, in the hopes someone could get a real ID on the guy. No one ever did. LOLs.
Wouldn't hurt for you to get Gary to provide Cures picture, show it to Darden and see if he recognizes him as the factory owner he met. Like Penon, Rossi likes to use those who helped him before.
Dewey, if I had invested real money in IH I would be truly upset that Darden didn't insist on going into the space where the customer was supposedly located. Darden is the CEO of Industrial Heat. Shouldn't he have the right to see the heat being put to work in the factory space? Anyone can be a Monday Morning Quarterback, but if I were Darden I would have been down at the test site for the first week, and I would have insisted on going into the customer space and talking to them and seeing their plant in action.
If AR refused to allow me to do that then it is game over. Pull the funding, shut the whole thing down and cut all ties until AR lets me through that door. Could AR sue IH at that point for breach? Sure, but his case would only be even weaker than it is today. On top of this Darden takes outside investor money and is quoted 9 months into the test in Fortune Magazine saying that the e-cat looks promising. Um, no it doesn't. If you can't see the customer making use of the heat, then how do you know what you even have? This whole thing should never been allowed to go this far. AR is holding the trump card. He can just get a private meeting with Darden and ask him how he is going to explain this debacle to his investors, and AR will ask for a few more bucks to drop the suit
Finally, for people who still can't come to terms with the fact that the e-cat is a cooked goose, just ask yourself why AR wouldn't want to throw the doors open to the factory to boast about the heat this factory was using. He would have marched Darden and Woodford through there and rejoiced in seeing their faces with all of that heat being put to use. The name of the company is Industrial Heat. Isn't that why they are in business? No answer about the customer doing top secret work, or it not being safe in there will suffice. That is all B.S. Darden runs IH, he can go where he wants. The only lingering question is why he didn't try harder to get through that door.
Argon - I'm an IH shareholder. I cannot be discarded. What are you?
Oh then it is third reason to feel sorry for you. I relly and honesty do, why wouldn't I. Company that had gigantic golden goose in their reach, and first time missed it by pissing off Mr Rossi.
I would be prefectly happy if IH could get its shit right, take hat off and plea Rossi to solve this outside court and help Rossi to spread LENR every pithole of all continents. I'm happy also if IH could make some sweet money with it as long as not getting too greedy and not trying to control LENR technology too much.
I think it would be much more fruitful to try to work together towards this goal than throwing this meaningless FUD and mud. It is not helping IH-case and even less you personally. You still have chance to save your face if you oriantate yourself to constructive path. We have big heart.
What I am? In a way much less than you think, but in other way also much more than you and boys understands to fear. In a way I'm just simply active hobbyist been following this saga since F&P unjustice. That made me decide take 'watchdog' stand and do what needs to be done that F&P disaster doesn't happen this time.
Now since I answered your question, can you officially confirm do you have IH:s authorization for message you are passing here or is everything just frustrated hot air as it sounds so far. (pro tip: Now it is worth play your cards right this time)
