Beauty Para - Go for throttle up!
How low will your E go?
I can take the E it down to 0.01, but AFAIK, 0.39 is correct for the Total E for alumina above 1400 C.
I might be at the limit of the pyrometer, though, at 2050 C. Certainly I am very close to the limit of the coil wiring.
I didn't want to kill the cylinder just yet.
I put together this slide rail so I can scan the T across the cylinder length for a fairly accurate total radiant power calculation.
Section...Length.......Temp (Lugano Style)....Convection W.....Radiation W.....Total W
1...............1.1 cm........1485 C............................12.2261................182.604..............194.8301
2...............1.0 cm........1793 C............................13.1209................316.74................329.8609
3...............2.5 cm........2052 C............................36.855.................1270.23.............1307.085
4...............1.0 cm........2034 C............................14.6311................492.534..............507.1651
5...............1.0 cm........1746 C............................12.82....................288.88.................301.7
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------TOTAL W........2640.6
Emissivity 0.39
Weighted average temperature 1898 C (Lugano Style)
Ambient temperature 14 C
Cylinder 2.5 cm diameter, 6.6 cm length.
Input including power control 427 W
Estimated power control consumption 16 W
Nice Para - Are you ready for your independent review? If yes, lets call the Swedes and see if they are available. Perhaps we should we start with the Chief Skeptic?
How much do you plan to charge per BTU or wattkwhourkwWatt/H per day?
RU wearing sunscreen?
Nice Para - Are you ready for your independent review? If yes, lets call the Swedes and see if they are available. Perhaps we should we start with the Chief Skeptic?
How much do you plan to charge per BTU or wattkwhourkwWatt/H per day?
RU wearing sunscreen?
I would love to run this on a proper IR camera, but the Optris PI160 can’t go higher than 1524.7 C
I plan to (and have) give(n) the technology to the public for free. Maybe IH can mass produce a few dozen to give away at conferences. This particular device forgoes fuel altogether, an exciting development for sure that makes unnecessary the hassle of dangerous nickel powders and LAH. There is no place to put any.
The “Swedes” have on their own already done similar tests with similar results, (at least possibly to a peak temperature of 1524.7 C).
However, the “COP” of 6.2 is a new Lugano Style world record.
It even may be possible to squeeze out a Lugano Style “COP” of 7, but this cylinder might burn up in the attempt.
Very nice and exciting Para - you should consider taking a few deposits immediately - that would make you the first commercial cylinder to market. You can make the market speak! As you suggested, perhaps we can take things from there and mass produce the cylinder giveaways!
Maybe you can sell your raygun rail mount instead - that looks quite handy.
And Cheers to you for avoiding the hassles of powder fuels and any possible IP entanglement with the R'ster.
Lastly, and best of all for now, because of your brilliance - we don't need a control run! It brings its own control run!! Another masterstroke that I'm sure you learned from the genius of the R'ster.
What a great day it has been as we move into the weekend festivities and celebrate the 30th anniversary of F&P.
Keep up the great work!
- Dewey
Display MoreVery nice and exciting Para - you should consider taking a few deposits immediately - that would make you the first commercial cylinder to market. You can make the market speak! As you suggested, perhaps we can take things from there and mass produce the cylinder giveaways!
Maybe you can sell your raygun rail mount instead - that looks quite handy.
And Cheers to you for avoiding the hassles of powder fuels and any possible IP entanglement with the R'ster.
Lastly, and best of all for now, because of your brilliance - we don't need a control run! It brings its own control run!! Another masterstroke that I'm sure you learned from the genius of the R'ster.
What a great day it has been as we move into the weekend festivities and celebrate the 30th anniversary of F&P.
Keep up the great work!
- Dewey
Nice! Can i have your role and start threatening everybody connected to Para? Bring in some hired nasty looking Israelis and APCO? I think i am also pretty good in making some false threats..not sure if i can hit your quotum though....Glad you are still around DW! Thinks are heating up again, right?
Cheers,
JB
Looks like more SPs from krusty cold storage of Planet Rossi. And he drags out his old playbook with him. WCG - lesson #1 - never reuse your old playbook.
Yep - Para is in big trouble for getting a master cylinder to run hotter that Rossi's Lugano bone.
Thecat is dethroned. Sad that the R'ster could never get his act together enough to convert one of his magnificentesezes out the door. Para just took him out!
Nice! Can i have your role and start threatening everybody connected to Para? Bring in some hired nasty looking Israelis and APCO? I think i am also pretty good in making some false threats..not sure if i can hit your quotum though....Glad you are still around DW! Thinks are heating up again, right?
Cheers,
JB
His threats have been kinda lame lately. Maybe you could give him a few pointers? I'd say more, but this is not a Rossi thread.
Thats right - its a Para Master Hot Cylinder thread!!
Para rules!!!
For my next experiment I will take a shot at Plots 5 through 8, Lugano Report.
(However, unlike Plots 6 through 8, I will not take two days to accomplish the ~400 second long event).
I already have data from earlier efforts with the Cylinder device to know that the jump from 1295 C to 1410 C takes about 35 W, starting from about 215 W. I don’t currently have a good temperature profile for the Cylinder at those temperatures. It might take a few attempts to get a clean test, but I should be able to get it done tonight.
Thanks Para - excited for the next batch of data from the Catbone Master Hot Cylinder.
Three minutes to heat up from 1295 to 1410 C Lugano Style, and three minutes to free-fall back to 1295, so that’s pretty much that.
I overshot 1410 even being careful not to.
Input increase required was 40 W. It was a very minor twist of the rheostat to get the 1295 to 1410 increase (only 0.36 A increase), and could indeed be surprising if one wasn’t expecting it. (Probably less surprising when extended over 6.67 minutes.)
Will crunch the COP numbers shortly and see what that looks like.
OK. First it is best to review what the Lugano report says for Plots 5 through 8, (where the power is increased and the temperature climbs from 1295 C to 1410 C), and compare to the actual values in Table 7, from which the conclusions were made.
"What immediately stands out in Table 7 is the sharp difference between values obtained in the first ten days of the test (files 1 to 5 included), when power input to the reactor was kept at lower levels, and those obtained in the second period, in which power supply was increased by slightly more than 100 W. The effect of raising power input was an increase in power emission of about 700 W. Plot5 shows the trend of average temperature for one of the areas in which the thermography file of the E-Cat was divided (Area No. 5), when power input was increased. All values have been calculated by setting only one emissivity value, so as to make displaying on a continuous line possible, but the choice of ε is appropriate here only for the final temperatures reached after power increase. For this reason, the plot is not entirely reliable as far as the values on the y-axis are concerned: its purpose is merely that of showing how long it took the E-Cat to stabilize after input current was increased. As one can see, this amounts to about 400 seconds, slightly more than six minutes." -Lugano report page 22
"power supply was increased by slightly more than 100 W." - The power supply increase is actually 137.9 W if Joule heat is ignored. When calculating COP earlier in the report, the Joule heat was subtracted (see equation [26], page 21). This means the effective power supply increase is 131.6 W, which is significantly higher than the 100 W discussed.
"The effect of raising power input was an increase in power emission of about 700 W." - Using Net Production from the report Table 7, the increase was actually 664.2 W. This might seem a bit nit-picky, but consider that the impression the report gives is that 100 W extra was applied and 700 W extra came out (7 x input). Based on the reported values. 131.6 W extra was applied, and 664.2 W extra came out (4.8 x input).
When I attempted an analogous temperature increase with the Cylinder starting at 1295 C (Lugano Style, emissivity set at 0.39, same as Lugano report for this part), the increase in power was required was 39 W to raise the Cylinder temperature to 1410 C. The apparent extra output was 171.8 W. (The Cylinder is considerably smaller than the extended Lugano apparatus. with its Rods, Caps, fat cables)
The ratio of output to input increase for Lugano for this section is 5.0 :1, while for the cylinder it is 4.4 :1 .
The COP increase for Lugano for this section was from 3.16 to 3.59, while for the cylinder it is from 3.42 to 3.59
Of course, one must be cautious about comparing the COP values reported in Table 7 in respect to the heat increase section, because when examining Table 6 it can be seen that the reported average temperature of the body (rib area) is only 1243.4 C for File 5 (and therefore at a slightly lower emissivity) while the File 6 average temperature reported is only 1398.99 C. These values are not the roughly 1295 C and 1410 C that appear on Plot 5, and therefore the COPs reported, input powers reported and apparent power increase reported are not quite the same conditions as when data for Plot 5 was recorded, which utilized only the Optris Measurement Box 5. However, the Cylinder was tested in approximately the same way, by using a central zone for determining the 1295 and 1410 temperatures, while the entire device was considered for apparent power production, etc.
The trick now will be to see if the calculations from the Clarke or Higgins replies to the Lugano report can recover the real external T of the Cylinder as measured by thermocouple (but of course, in the spirit of Lugano, not actually used for calculations)
Para - Eureka!!!! The Catbone is replicated with even more efficiency that the original mastapeeece.
You've done it!!!
Call Mats!!! Call Frank!!!!! Call Uppsala!!!!!! Call Fabio!!!!!!!! Call Penon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Congratulations on all of your hard work - this is quite an accomplishment. And all one day ahead of the anniversary weekend!! Spread the word!!
Perhaps someone can show that even though I may have inflated the temperatures somewhat by emissivity abuse, that I still have managed a COP of 1.3 or something like that when recalculated correctly...
Possibly a calibration error?
And thanks to Mitch S. for this...
For my next experiment I will take a shot at Plots 5 through 8, Lugano Report.
Why is this info being posted in the Playground rather than on the thread set up for this purpose?
Because we're playing.
Maybe those posts are better on the demos revisited thread.
Here is where the plan began to solidify... but I forgot to make a fuel spot for the Kool-Aid!
