The Playground

  • "Mr. K Shanahan.
    I am interested in how the IMS or other element testing devices can be contaminated be high temps
    around the seals. I think you mentioned it. I would like to know possible ways to explain the
    transmutation results. Do you have any references that I can track down and read? I asked earlier.
    I want to know of known proven ways the sample can show results. Other than being salted."


    I haven't been following all the threads here, and I don't know what 'IMS' is. I checked some of
    your other posts and found you asking this in another thread, and I noted that Abd posted an
    answer. In general, what he said was correct, but I would not assume what he suggested was the
    cause of the appearance of unusual elements or isotope distributions.


    What I have pointed out in the past is that the supposed heavy metal transmutation products
    reported by Iwamura, et al, are more likely to be concentrated contaminants. Some of his reported
    products could be linked to common materials used in preparing the equipment used (I am speaking of
    MoS2 thread lubricant used with UHV systems like SIMS and XPS instruments). The materials being
    deposited on the samples by physical contact with a contaminated object. Others could be
    found as trace contaminants in his starting materials (specifically I looked up a Certificate of
    Analysis for high purity CaO (as I recall), which was the separating layer in the Pd-oxide-Pd
    sandwiches he uses. The CoA showed the element he detected to be the primary contaminant at the
    ppm level.) The chemical process he subjected the sandwich to then transported and concentrated
    the pre-existing contaminant. And then Kidwell found 'wild' Pr in the lab, which negated any
    claims to have produced it by transmutation. Physical transport onto the sandwich at some point
    during handling is again much more likely.


    If we are talking about the Rossi handled sample that showed a nearly pure isotopic distribution,
    then that is a different case. I personally don't believe it. I personally consider the
    sleight-of-hand switching more likely. Why? Several reasons. Purity is not thermodynamically
    favored. Usually to drive a reaction to high purity takes a high degree of control, which was
    not present in that experiment. And I agree with Abd, one sample is nothing but suggestive at
    best. Reproduction is required, but we don't have that yet. In Rossi's favor is the idea that
    nuclear reactions are more specific isotopically that simple chemical reactions. So maybe a
    nuclear process gave the results found. Maybe. If so then reproduce it.


    With regards to analytical instruments contaminating the sample: that can occur if the equipment
    has been exposed to the contaminant previously. For ex, in the MoS2 case, we can assume the
    UHV equipment was baked out at some point, because that's how you get the U in UHV. Baking will
    gall bolt threads, so people put a MoS2 grease on the threads to prevent this. That means if
    someone touches the threads and then touches the part of the equipment exposed to the sample,
    the contaminant MoS2 can be transferred from thread to hand to equipment to sample. Sometimes
    direct contact is not required, especially with fine powders (like the Pr?). Then simple breezes
    can entrain the smaller particles and deposit them anywhere. You can still get direct contact
    transfer of course. One other problem is when people use more concentrated calibration standards
    to calibrate their instruments and then proceed to do trace level measurements with it (as Arata
    did with his He measurements). Of course the standard used will contain what you are looking for.
    The problem is that you introduce that stuff to the instrument and you may not get it all out
    before you run your sample. Then the process of running the sample releases some of the 'stored'
    standard material and you are tricked into thinking it is sample. The correct procedure is to run
    several standard samples in the expected concentration range and observe consistent results.
    Then you run your unknown. Then you run a standard again to demonstrate the consistency is
    retained. In the CF field I have seen no indication people take this level of care. Yet they
    expect us to accept anomalous results at trace level as real by trust and faith. Nope...


    I'm not aware of a specific reference that goes over all this. Most of this I've learned the
    hard way (or I've heard of them). This is part of the 'art' of a field and it's why a common
    saying is that it takes a person two years of effort to learn how to do it right. In fact one
    reviewer comment on my CCS stuff was just that. (Facetiously...how dare I claim to have found a
    problem without having worked in the area!!! If I was building calorimeters they would be right,
    but I'm not. What I did was study the data analysis methods, which I have dome one way or another
    for 30 years or so.) You might do Google searches on trace analysis combined with
    contamination... There are probably books out there, but I don't know.

  • What I have pointed out in the past is that the supposed heavy metal transmutation products reported by Iwamura, et al, are more likely to be concentrated contaminants.


    @Kirk: May be we all should focus on actual research. The euphoric phase is over and serious companys work in the field.
    The reported transmutation by mitsubishi are glas clear and of course not caused by contamination.



    https://www.mhi.co.jp/technology/review/pdf/e524/e524106.pdf


    It's is more than obvious that some physics books must be rewritten or, at least need a huge complementary chapter. It easly could be, that it might become the main chapter...

  • KS - As to your MoS2 example, this does not account for the data. MHI showed an isotopic anomaly at m/z 96. Mo contamination would not have that anomaly. What made Pr so problematic is that it is monoisotopic. In any case, the Mo results is like an artifact due to molecular species in SIMS. In this case, Fe56Ca40 dimer. You should rethink your arguments. I believe that your conclusion is correct but how it is reached is in error.


    As to CCS. It did happen in some data sets but not always. As to recombination, many cells are now run closed. That does not mean that artifacts are absent. They could be or could not be. We cannot tell.

  • The reported transmutation by mitsubishi are glas clear and of course not caused by contamination.



    mhi.co.jp/technology/review/pdf/e524/e524106.pdf


    Your link provides a perfect example of what I am complaining about. Let's go through the
    vetting process I use.


    OK, to start - published in 2015 in a company magazine - increased probability it wasn't
    carefully reviewed...one negative point (vs a peer-reviewed pub.).


    Quick jump to refs. - not many, all prior to 2006. Memory bell ringing...Kidwell...Krivit...


    http://news.newenergytimes.net…mitsubishi-lenr-research/


    So Kidwell first started criticizing in 2008. That means all refs are reports from prior to
    any negative commentary...one negative point. Total = -2.


    Note refs use abbreviated author lists (et al...) - Is Iwamura an author on all? Minor point,
    defer to later, but may negate the idea that the report is 'well-referenced' because of
    insufficient breadth.


    Moving on...short paper - do quick scan...problem detected...repeat scan with specific goal in mind...
    problem confirmed...no discussion of starting material purity at all. Negative _5_ points. Crucial
    omission.
    Total = -7


    Moving on...


    Most results are repeats of prior conclusion. Exception seems to be XRF. OK...what are problems in
    trace analysis with XRF...Google search...first hit...


    http://www.icdd.com/resources/axa/vol46/V46_57.pdf


    Hmmm..lots of interferences...any discussion of the problem in paper...no...minus one point. Tot=-8.


    Net conclusion so far...no change, just more of the same, alternatives ignored in favor of
    anomalous interpretation. SOP for the field.


    second hit...http://www.ndt.net/article/v12n09/afshari.pdf


    Good overview article. Table of some energies. Note this stmt.:


    "A sample composed of several elements yields multiple spectral lines that can
    overlap each other and cause interference in both qualitative and quantitative examination."


    Yup. OK...so XRF is not a silver bullet. Standard analytical technique with standard problems.
    Need full discussion of problems in HMT papers.


    Moving on...


    Paper repeats depth profiling study without discussing how this is distinguished from the case
    where the new element is deposited on top of the sample by the postulated alternative
    contamination transport and concentration process. Minus one point. Current total: -9


    Moving on....


    Note stmt after ICPMS stuff: " The control of reaction stability is a future issue."
    Yeah...ok...still haven't got control...minus one-half point. Total = -9.5


    Believabilty index too low, reaching nit-picking stage anyway, stop.

  • "KS - As to your MoS2 example, this does not account for the data. MHI showed an isotopic anomaly at
    m/z 96. Mo contamination would not have that anomaly. What made Pr so problematic is that it is
    monoisotopic. In any case, the Mo results is like an artifact due to molecular species in SIMS. In
    this case, Fe56Ca40 dimer. You should rethink your arguments. I believe that your conclusion is correct
    but how it is reached is in error."


    Note that if MoS2 contaminated the sample, it is there, and should be observable by any technique
    capable of doing so. So seeing m/e=96 isn't surprising.


    However, the CF community in general misses the concept you apply with FeCa, namely molecular species.


    For ex., Pr's atomic weight is 140.9. Neighbors of lower weight are: La 138.9 Ba: 137.3 Cs: 132.9


    D weighs 2.01 - 2 for short


    Thus: CsD = 134.9 CsD2 = 136.9 CdsD3 = 138.9 CsD4=140.9
    BaD = 139.3 BaD2 = 141.3
    LaD = 140.9


    So is the "140.9" signal Pr, or LaD, or BaD2, or ...? (I put it in quotes because 'they' also fail
    to discuss their m/e determination accuracy and precision.)


    (Also, PdSD2 = 104.6 + 32 + 4 = 140.6.)


    But most likely is a Pr contamination. Kidwell found it on a balance. But he was only doing surface
    smears. Perhaps one of the starting materials has become contaminated, not to the level where it shows
    up initially, but later is concentrated just like the contaminant I noted in CaO. That's why they need
    to repeat with completely different starting materials. Maybe they have, but we don't know because they
    never discuss the issues.


    Bottom line: Too many unexamined alternatives to believe wild new nuclear reactions are happening.
    I'll save that for later when either a good examination of alternatives has occurred or they can
    reproduce at a non-trace level.


    "As to CCS. It did happen in some data sets but not always. As to recombination, many cells are now
    run closed. That does not mean that artifacts are absent. They could be or could not be. We cannot
    tell."


    You get to join the august club of people who think a CCS might happen. The CF community does not
    share your opinion.


    P.S. The Storms data was obtained in a closed cell. Closed cells can show CCS too... And you are
    right, from apparent excess heat data we can't tell if it is real or a CCS (or something else).
    So why do cold fusioneers claim excess heat is proven beyond a doubt? Answer: They want to.

  • Note that if MoS2 contaminated the sample, it is there, and should be observable by any technique
    capable of doing so. So seeing m/e=96 isn't surprising


    You are missing a large point. MHI saw an ABNORMAL pattern for Mo (m/z 96 was too large compared to the other isotopes present). Thus, they concluded that they were adding 4Ds to Sr88 to make Mo96 (it was not clear what happened to the other isotopes of Sr but for some reason they did not react). The actual level was very trace and barely above background. However, there was enough S/N to claim its presence. I agree. However, in SIMS you form clusters. So m/z 96 could be a cluster of other elements. The most likely is FeCa as both Fe and Ca were present. Toyota concluded it was an artifact but claim it is Ca2O. The pattern actually does not completely match Ca2O but does FeCa. In any case, it can be explained by what is well known in SIMS - a cluster ion.


    The Pr work was by ICP-MS. This does not show molecular species (with a few exceptions), so IDing Pr was correct. It was Pr - origin unknown.


    BTW: The Pr was not from normal contamination as contamination (outside a lab and few other locations) does not have Pr in pure state. Always found with other lanthanides.



    As to:
    PdSD2 = 104.6 + 32 + 4 = 140.6.


    You need to better understand mass spectrometry. You do not use an average molecular weight for Pd but each isotope. So a molecule like PdSD2 would have a significant isotopic pattern (mostly matching Pd) hat would be easily recognizable. Also 140.6 (which would not happen) is not 141 and unless using a poor resolution instrument, would be easily distinguishable. The resolution was at least 10K in this case.

  • This sort of argument is the reason I encourage enthusiasts to provide results in the 100 Watt range with minimal power inputs or better yet, none at all. A calibration error of any plausible amount won't matter then. Obviously you also have to rule out trickery and deception and to run long enough. Jed claims he has such results so, just to be fair, which reprint is it again, Jed? Just one best one please? Properly replicated please so it is more than a "one of" claim?

  • Most results are repeats of prior conclusion. Exception seems to be XRF. OK...what are problems in
    trace analysis with XRF...Google search...first hit...


    @kirkshanahan: What about reading the paper first? And then writing comments? The paper is short!


    What's new:
    1 Synchronous depletion of CS133 and surge of Pr141
    2 Measurement done in situ: External contamination impossible!


    Thus you must explain both effects together: Your claimed wrong measurement of Pr, and the synchronous vanishing of Cs133.


    One more hint: 3 The measurement was done continuously !

  • @kshanahan,
    Thanks for your timely reply. I will need more time to study your post properly and the referenced paper you authored, but I appreciate your attention to detail and response. Yes, I misspoke with IMS and probably meant SIMS. I say "probably" as I not familiar with the device or similar devices just yet so will have to track the possible sources of the errors down.My motivation is to understand how to create the transmutation ash results posted in the A.P. presentation without resorting to saying that "the ash sample was salted" but more along the lines of understanding it was contaminated by either handling, statistics, and any reasoning on how this could occur is helpful. I always look for alternative explanations. I hope this makes sense, as this is why I was asking. Again, thanks and I may have more questions.

  • @KShanahan


    I agreed with Szpak, et al, that their hot spots indicated explosions.


    I think it's much more likely that the 'explosions' mentioned in the papers title refers to the clicks picked up by the piezo sensor. Your hot spots/explosions are an artefact caused by the noise in the analogue signal being digitized. If you watch the video, its clear that all over the screen, some pixels are flipping back and forth between adjacent colours on the temperature scale. The high contrast of red/white at the top end of the scale just makes this digitization artefact much more visible, giving the appearance of explosions.


    Carrying one in your shirt pocket gives pits.


    No doubt SPAWAR will be urgently revising their CR39 handling protocols upon learning this.


    When you consider CR39 use in CF experiments, you must recall there are two very different
    ways they are used. The way that produced thousands (and probably millions) of pits was when
    the CR39 plate was used as the base plate of the codep electrode


    Bit of a red herring here I think: it's just getting all scratched up, shirt pocket style. The more interesting way used is with the mylar (iirc) shields: Clearer triple tracks.


    And I believe the authors of that [triple track] concept proceeded to discredit it anyway....


    I didn't know this, do you have any more info please?

  • @Wyt
    You really don't know how to read do you? What is it you think I was doing? Probably you accept Jed's POV which asserts that I like to sit in my office and make stuff up just to tick you off... Go back and try again...


    *********


    Point 1. X increasing and Y decreasing in these experiments is not exclusive proof of transmutation. X depositing and covering Y is a commonly observed phenomenon.


    Point 2. External contamination NOT impossible if introduced in sample synthesis and assemble stages...


    Point 3. So what?


  • The link you post is a repeat of the link I was using when I responded to the glowing presentation of this paper as 'proof' LENR exists. It isn't.


    As I noted, all the refs are prior to the Kidwell incident. I followed things closely back then. None of the cited references are compelling. In the new 2015 paper, there is a lot of repeating of old data. Typically that is frowned upon in real scientific publications. As I noted in my description of how I vet the paper (which you failed to understand), the only new stuff seems to be the XRF work, and quick searches reveal the XRF work is as non-compelling as the rest of the work. No physics books need to be rewritten yet...

  • @DAK“You need to better understand mass spectrometry.” - ROFL^2


    You at least do recognize the problem that clusters introduce to data interpretation. However, you fail to grasp what I was doing was illustrating how one could get peaks in the MS that fell at the isotope’s masses for the claimed transmutation products from hydride clusters instead. Bimetallic alloys like FeCa give similar issues.


    The key point is that the CF authors never seem to give enough of the MS to decide if this is the problem or not. It’s the “Trust me, I did it right!” approach to science. In the case of anomalous conclusions, no, no trust is just given, it must be earned. One does that by showing *all* the data.


    Your comments seem to imply you have seen the spectra. Can you reference the sources you use please?


    “You are missing a large point. MHI saw an ABNORMAL pattern for Mo (m/z 96 was toolarge compared to the other isotopes present).”


    And you are missing a larger one…every claim to have observed isotopic anomalies means THERE WAS AN ABNORMALITY IN THE ISOTOPIC DISTRIBUTION *as interpreted*. This is a 'given' in the LENR field. There is no other interpretation given. So to conclude I missed anything shows your personal bias, which is that ‘skeptics’ don’t know what they are talking about. You need to drop that and start trying to be objective.


    “Thus, they concluded that they were adding 4Ds to Sr88 to make Mo96” - Yes, but not nuclearly, chemically, to make a SrD4 molecular cluster.


    Your post shows that you understand the problem that most who comment on this work don’t seem to know. Your comments suggest you have seen full spectra. Again, refs for the rest of us to look at please?

  • Kirk,


    I agree with all your points, and the key issue that MS data can have so many false positives you need and expert analysis before a given peak is not explained as false positive (and even then it could be contamination). Where these papers make extraordinary assertions without full data and a lot of expert discussion they are just unsafe, but in a way that naive readers might not recognise.


    On a minor issue: is SrD4 likely? SrD2 would stick together nicely...

  • It's not my CSSH, so I have no idea. And I believe the authors of that concept proceeded to discredit it anyway....


    kirkshanahan wrote:
    And I believe the authors of that [triple track] concept proceeded to discredit it anyway....


    I didn't know this, do you have any more info please?


    As you can see, the '[triple track]' insert is incorrect. Not what I was talking about.


    Bit of a red herring here I think: it's just getting all scratched up, shirt pocket style. The more interesting way used is with the mylar (iirc) shields: Clearer triple tracks.


    I believe mylar is correct. Question: If I place a mylar sheet over a piece of glass or plastic, and then set off a macroscopic piece of explosive near it, do you think the glass or plastic might get broken, bent, or scratched? If yes, why does making the system smaller change that conclusion?


    kirkshanahan wrote:
    Carrying one in your shirt pocket gives pits.


    No doubt SPAWAR will be urgently revising their CR39 handling protocols upon learning this.


    They participated in 'Project Galileo', which is where this comment comes from. Specifically from Scott Little of EarthTech, Intl. I suggest you Google this. Krivit and Little have Web page entries on it. I think Kowalski does too.



    I think it's much more likely that the 'explosions' mentioned in the papers title refers to the clicks picked up by the piezo sensor.


    The piezo sensor work didn't appear until several years after the publication of stills from an ir video, and the release of said video on the Internet, so your supposition is incorrect. Your assessment of the spots as noise doesn't cut it either.

  • KShanahan. What's that story about the time you were trying to dispute some 'cold fusion' findings by showing a non-correlation between two factors, but ballsed up the analysis, and ended up unknowingly proving it? Or something. Abd used to write about it. Never heard your side of it. Maybe something about a horizontal line on a graph?



    In my 2010 J. Env. Monitoring paper, there is a slight error in my discussion
    of a specific figure. Abd has tried to use that to discredit everything I write
    in a 'throw the baby out with the bathwater' style. I replied to him here on
    lenr-forum, but in brief...


    The correct comment on the figure in question (which shows #He atoms/
    Watt-sec which can be related to the MeV/atom He purportedly released in the
    unknown LENR (the value is used to draw the horizontal line you reference)) is
    that the Figure shows nothing because the noise level of the results is so high
    it includes zero and values up to 2X the maximum postulated for the LENR. Abd
    thinks the Figure shows the reaction is related to D-D fusion, but to get that he
    (a) has to ignore a high flyer datum, and (b) has to assume some large fraction
    (~40-50%) of the produced He atoms are trapped in the solid electrode.


    Ignoring the flyer is not a good idea. It is a real data point derived from the
    system under study. It shows you how spread the data can be, thereby supporting
    the assertion that the method is too inaccurate to be useful. The % thing has
    no technical support, it is just handwaving designed to 'explain' the result that
    the average value comes in well below the theoretical one (the horizontal line).


    No, I didn't 'unknowingly prove' anything. The 'CCSH' idea authors however, in
    proving their straw man false, unknowingly supported my ATER-CCS proposition.

  • On a minor issue: is SrD4 likely? SrD2 would stick together nicely...


    The honest answer is "I don't know." I agree that SrD2 is more likely, and I *feel* SrD4 is unlikely, but there is that anomalous mass
    96 peak... Without more information we can't tell what is going on.


    My point in all this is explicitly that we are never given that information, we are just told "Trust me, I did it right!" Ummm...no.

  • It looks like I am beating a dead horse where you are trying to rationalize a mistake (or at least my mistaken understanding of your comments).
    As to your MS experience, - I have no idea - but someone with extensive experience would not postulate examples using an average isotopic number.


    The examples of interference that you postulate - such as SrD4 - do not work because:
    1. That cluster would not form by SIMS.
    2. If it did form, then you would see the isotopic distribution of Sr, which is not observed.
    Yes anyone can add element together and get mass 96 - for example a cluster of Ca-H56 (56 hydrogen atoms + 1 Ca40 atom) would equal 96 with the pattern shown. But generally such an entity would not form in typical experimental setups. You could pick O6 (six oxygen atoms) as well, but again, not likely.


    If you wish to illustrate some issue with molecular interference, just select the more reasonable ones consistent with the spectrum, the resolution of the MS, and the type of analysis (XPS vs. SIMS vs. ICP-MS as these all have different forms of interferents).


    The data is published by MHI in a localized region for Sr ==> Mo96 in several publications. First one I found was:
    Figure 5 of:
    http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/IwamuraYlowenergyn.pdf.

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