The Playground

    Joshg, you are correct. It would be criminally negligent for people in IH to have said anything in writing about collusion against or with Woodward, and only common sense was needed to avoid this.


    Without naming names, I do think the whole false flag stuff is far removed from any plausible account of things. Some people's commitments ("LENR+", Rossi having something, etc.) seem to take them down paths that are hard to go along with them on. I do not think there are nefarious forces consciously aligned against LENR at this point. You have the occasional committed debunker who makes a splashy and sometimes impressive and entertaining appearance on forums. There's the stigma that attaches to scientists who express interest in LENR, and the apparent prejudice against the field on the editorial boards of magazines such as Scientific American. There's the difficulty in getting papers into peer reviewed journals (I think most established LENR researchers have largely stopped trying at this point). These things are understandable in terms of more mundane sociological explanations. Energy companies have actually been funders of cold fusion research, as we saw with the SRI-EPRI collaborations.


    The horse carriage business in the early part of the twentieth century and the whaling outfits in the nineteenth century are both examples of business concerns that stood to lose a lot with later technological developments. They were eventually swept away, even if they did resist encroaching developments. There was nothing they could have done. I think something similar would happen if LENR were made commercially viable. There would be little that could be done to stop it. Attempted explanations for the Rossi v. Darden trial that are based on or that vaguely allude to nefarious forces arrayed against LENR miss the straightforward and far more plausible explanations for no obvious explanatory purpose except to continue to make wishful thinking possible.


    That said, Rossi worked at one point with Focardi, who collaborated with Piantelli, and I am not fully convinced at this point that Rossi has never had anything, despite the Doral show. This is a question that comes down to impressions and probabilities, which I consider to be very low but not zero.

    Quote from Roger

    This cuts both ways: seems there are a lot of people who really wish that Rossi's reactors do not work and have never worked, even though facts from the court docs tell another story altogether


    I think you need to make the case that the facts from the court docs tell another story altogether, and that this cannot be automatically concluded from what has been brought to light so far. You will need to show statements in a timeline that, when ordered properly, suggest that IH intentionally bilked another party. So far what we have are statements made at different points in time that are likely evidence of a shifting understanding of things, that would be easy to misconstrue if taken out of order.


    I doubt there is anyone who wishes that Rossi's reactors do not work. More likely is that there are people who give the probability little weight. Those two things are very different.

    We know that in 2013 IH/Cherokee built their own reactors and obtained positive results ("significant excess energy"), with the usual disclaimers that go with communicating to investors ("of course we have to verify" etc)


    We read testimonies from IH/Cherokee people, who basically state: "oh we didn't know what we didn't know at the time", base their rebuttal of Rossi's apparatuses upon conjectures, and are not sure what they want to answer, or how to answer.

    We also have the ERV report, the reach towards investors from 2013 onwards, that never stopped before the lawsuit, the scientists supporting Rossi's results, at Lugano or elsewhere. Also claims that IH/Cherokee were more than generous with an IP that wasn't theirs.


    Nobody has to connect the dots if one doesn't want to. But based upon facts, not conjectures, the narrative is suddenly very different from what a lot of people on this forum want to push.

    • Official Post

    IH had an "investors presentation" they gave each potential investor. That has not been submitted yet as evidence, but referred to in the Jan transcript. When it becomes available, Josh and others will have their answer as to whether or not IH criminally conspired to defraud Woodford. My guess is that everyone was forewarned, and this will all be shown to be for nothing.

    I have actually been surprised about all the things we don't have evidence about via e-mails in this case. For example: we don't have any evidence of Darden informing Rossi in advance that the Doral debacle does not count as a test. (Yes, I know that there is a lot of testimony around that issue about who said what to whom, but nevertheless there are no e-mails from IH to Darden; there is no written record.) And that is only one of many examples of things that I would have expected to see some written evidence for. I would not have expected to see them writing e-mails to each other about screwing over Woodford (or working with Woodford to screw over Rossi). That would not only have been criminal, it would have been criminally stupid. So the fact that there is no such direct evidence does not surprise me, and I don't think they need to be smooth operators, just use some common sense. So on this point, absence of evidence cannot be construed as evidence of absence.


    That is pretty understandable. From testimony IH were walking a tightrope with Rossi. They did not want to give into his demands for a GPT before they had got stuff working, because they thought he was very possibly a chancer who had nothing. But they also wanted to keep him sweet, if possible, to make sure that if he does have something he is cooperative with their efforts to get it to work. If his stuff did work for real they would be happy to give him his $89M whether the GPT is carried out or not, and would be happy to treat the test Rossi was doing as the GPT. This strategy does not have seem to have worked very well - but you can see how they would want to let Rossi run his test that was not the GPT, without emphasising that it was not the GPT.


    The subtext here is that Rossi desperately wanted to run the test, presumably to get the $89M. IH were prepared to give it to him if they could get his stuff to work, which at the start of the test was unclear. They were not prepared to give him $89M for non-working stuff on the basis of a test that they had grave doubts would be fairly conducted (and Rossi had refused to run a GPT where IH could oversee it properly). By the end of the test it was clear that his stuff would never work. Rossi on the other hand shows no interest in helping IH to get his stuff to work, but is (in his words) desperate to run the test, and has convinced himself that if the test has a successful report (as he knows it will) he is owed his $89M. You might ask why Rossi did not take the easier path of helping IH to get his stuff to work, or running the test on IH premises without a fake customer, if he did believe it worked?


    In retrospect we can say that this softly, softly strategy from IH was wrong. But, had Rossi merely been a paranoid and difficult inventor with stuff that does work it could have had a happy outcome. And IH motivation here is what you would expect anyone to have, focussed on getting Rossi product to work, willing to be generous if it does, unwilling to be generous if it does not.


    A pragmatic and moral strategy from IH can be spun into one where they are immorally (and possibly illegally) attempting to cheat Rossi out of what is due by legally sabotaging the test while letting him think it is real. The questions you must answer to decide whether IH is moral here are:


    (1) Was the test fairly run (even if legally non-compliant) so that indeed it shows Rossi's stuff works?

    (2) Did they end up with working product - ie an LENR device worth billions, or if not did Rossi help them to get his stuff to work (or honestly admit it was not working in the case this proves impossible)?


    I think it is clear:

    • The test could not determine whether Rossi's stuff works
    • IH do not, at the end of this saga, have a working LENR device. They have stated on oath that they do not (not just from Rossi, but from anyone) yet.
    • Rossi did not help their attempts to get his stuff to work (e-mails refusing this).


    That is slightly different from the legal matter.


    EDIT: As I read it both legally and morally the transfer of IP is critical. If Rossi did not allow them to get his stuff to work broadly the same as it was claimed to work in his demos then the GPT is void because previous terms have not been satisfied. Now whether this flies legally I don't know, but morally it seems entirely reasonable. We have not heard much from IH about this, but they have made the argument and I'd expect to be important in any trial unless it gets agreed by Altonaga from an MSJ.




    Regards,

    THH

    Quote from Shane D.

    IH had an "investors presentation" they gave each potential investor. That has not been submitted yet as evidence, but referred to in the Jan transcript. When it becomes available, Josh and others will have their answer as to whether or not IH criminally conspired to defraud Woodford. My guess is that everyone was forewarned, and this will all be shown to be for nothing.


    I think this with some confidence because a very credible investor here (can't remember who, perhaps they can confirm this) said that the Darden info about Rossi was very full of caveats - more so than they thought necessary. I guess we can all make that judgement for ourselves, but hindsight is wonderful. Doubtless now any advice other than that saying: Rossi is a snake and poisonous who you should never go near could be thought unwise. That is what we skeptics were arguing at the time, but many other people not. There is also the clean up LENR motivation as 3. from Paradigmnoia above.

    Quote from THHuxleynew

    That is pretty understandable. From testimony IH were walking a tightrope with Rossi. They did not want to give into his demands for a GPT before they had got stuff working, because they thought he was very possibly a chancer who had nothing. But they also wanted to keep him sweet, if possible, to make sure that if he does have something he is cooperative with their efforts to get it to work. If his stuff did work for real they would be happy to give him his $89M whether the GPT is carried out or not, and would be happy to treat the test Rossi was doing as the GPT. This strategy does not have seem to have worked very well - but you can see how they would want to let Rossi run his test that was not the GPT, without emphasising that it was not the GPT.


    @THH: Would be nice to get some DOCK references for your claims. Especially about the happiness of paying 89$...

    @THH: Would be nice to get some DOCK references for your claims. Especially about the happiness of paying 89$...


    Darden testimony. http://coldfusioncommunity.net…loads/2017/01/0214.10.pdf


    "Andrea, the
    19 problem is not money.· We're happy to pay money if we
    20 have technology that works.· We don't have technology
    21 that works.· Help us get some technology working
    22 somewhere and we're happy to pay you some money."

    And we're back to the point where one of the parties has to be lying or not telling the whole truth, that's why people need to read testimonies from both sides, and check facts


    Also, while Rossi asks for the money, maybe it's just a nice bonus he wants, while the heart of the matter is probably IP-related.

    Quote from THHuxleynew

    We know the quarkx is a Rossi-made fluorescent tube, run off a DC power source and some driver circuitry. Thus the work here would appear to be a matter of buying a suitable mains power adapter, or possibly a Dc-Dc converter to get a few 100 volts from a low-voltage battery.


    Only on Rossi's blog could this be elevated to the status of a nuclear experiment - and only Rossi followers could see power system design that could be done easily be a 1st year EE undergraduate as amazing.

    Thomas, that can't be true, because Rossi dissasembled major parts of the Doral "plant" and reused them! Inside his Doral "factory"

    So he is now using a 1MW heat exchanger on the 20W QuarkX.

    Or do you thing he brought all that material back to Home Depot and asked for a refund? Or asked for a AC/DC device or DC/AC or DC/DC but couldn't explain 'cause this EE stuff is all so difficult to understand...

    This is all so confusing :)

    Re: doody in the pool (in case the reference wasn't clear)


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    Quote from THHuxleynew

    @THH: Would be nice to get some DOCK references for your claims. Especially about the happiness of paying 89$...


    Darden testimony. http://coldfusioncommunity.net…loads/2017/01/0214.10.pdf


    "Andrea, the
    19 problem is not money.· We're happy to pay money if we
    20 have technology that works.· We don't have technology



    · · · Q.· ·Did you put that -- that subsequent offer

    13 in writing?


    14· · · · A.· ·I don't know.· I mean, it was -- did we say

    15 to him in writing somewhere, "We can't build these
    16 units.· We want to build these units.· Help us build

    17 these units.· Let's get something going."· I don't know

    18 but we -- I'm sure that we said to him, "Andrea, the

    19 problem is not money.·


    @THH: Next time quote the context too. Now everybody can see how Darden fakes the day...


    Nothing written!! Thus you have no formal proof that they ever told this (paying additional money) to Rossi!


    bdw: Did you notice the tricky rhetorics of Darden? Did you put that .. in writing ?.. I mean, .. was, .. did say .. Finally he tells something else... --> no answer!

    @THH: Next time quote the context too. Now everybody can see how Darden fakes the day...


    Nothing written!! Thus you have no formal proof that they ever told this (paying additional money) to Rossi!



    I agree. but then there is no evidence at all, formal or informal, that Rossi's devices work. That is all IH wanted. And in the Court documents you will find no evidence of this, when Rossi surely could have provided it. (No - the COP=9 using Rossi/Fabiani recommended methodology does not work - we know why this is false).


    Check your post history. A year ago you were claiming that the information needed to replicate would be provided very soon -- in WEEKS. Read that again, WEEKS. Do you really want to make me go back and pull up your quotes? There are some very clear examples of you specifying how the information would come in the very near term. Moreover, claiming to be able to achieve high COP and self sustain (even if briefly) from a Ni-H system (using only wire no less!) by careful fuel pre-treatment and the production of atomic hydrogen while making such promises ONLY TO GO DARK FOR A YEAR sure does constitute teasing and taunting in my book!


    Liars that speak loudly about being totally open about such a critically important topic such as LENR only to change their minds -- after making specific promises -- deserve ZERO support, period. And, let's be blunt: there is not a single competitor who is truly "open" about their work -- who is producing results powerful and promising enough to make a difference. There maybe a dozen parties producing high COP and kilowatt per gram levels of power from Ni-H systems, but since they are doing so in near total secrecy they don't count. They are either corrupted by various powerful entities already worth billions of dollars or are victims of inventors syndrome. However, a few of them sure like to have it both ways: keeping their know how secret while taunting and teasing the community with worthless tidbits of information that won't help anyone replicate. This is despicable behavior under normal circumstances. But holding back such information when the community has degraded to a cesspool of alligators, crocks, as other serpents fighting each other is even worse.


    So why don't you go back to whatever rock you crawled out from and stay there. You don't want to help this community, you don't want to help this planet, and you sure don't want to help establish LENR as a reality. You've been exposed as a money hungry liar and that's all there is to it.


    This is not a helpful post. Please stop the ad hominem attacks. And let's be happy that Brian Albiston will be looking at me356's device and leave it at that. Eric

    Quote from Eric Walker

    That's not an implicit threat for a ban. That's a question about whether to engage in the very discussion that is taking place right now. This discussion would never arise in connection with Bob Higgins, Brian Albiston, Alan Goldsmith or Alan Smith, for example.


    The answer is simple. Me356 made specific promises over a year ago to share all the information needed for replicators to reproduce the high powered Ni-H effect. If someone wants to check his post history -- unless he has changed or altered them -- the promises are very clear. The best form of verification of his claims is NOT for the MFMP or any other organization on the planet to run tests on his "black boxes." For goodness sakes, even if a hundred different parties all claimed they worked, but he didn't share how they worked it wouldn't matter one bit in the big scheme of things. If we want his bold claims to be verified (and they are tremendously significant statements) then he simply needs to KEEP HIS PROMISE and share the know how of how to make a simple high powered Ni-H system. He has already left most of the pieces of the puzzle on this forum, but I know multiple replicators who aren't going to bother scrounging down on the floor to put them together. They would gladly perform replications, but they want the full recipe that was promised.


    One reason why I'm certain that the recent post by Me356 is legitimate is because of the claim of a lack of time. He has used this excuse before. For him to compose a few pages of text providing instructions on how to replicate using his formula would take a few hours at most, I figure. He doesn't have to provide plans for his most exotic LENR setups or the one he is utilizing right now. Also, we don't need his control system. All we need is the know how to show the basic high powered effect using nickel wire, hydrogen, and his signaling method that producing atomic hydrogen on demand. Then he could go about his business for the rest of his life, if he so desired, without another word out of us -- or myself.


    But realistically, he ain't gonna share zilch with us. Pretending that he ever will is a delusion. Unless you desire to be let down, you don't expect addicts to quit smoking methamphetamine without extensive rehab and you don't expect those suffering of inventors syndrome to keep their promises and share their know how. It's more likely for the moon to one day be discovered as having a core made of blue cheese than Me356 to tell us how to replicate. The fact he moved past the use of nickel without telling us anything was my last straw. It let me know we have ZERO hope of learning anything from him in the near term, and very little hope of learning anything from him in the long term unless he hits it big with his technology and becomes a successful multi-billionaire.

    @THEDEBATEISUSELESS , let's not detract from the other thread with complaints about me356 not sharing information anymore. If you have further thoughts to vent about that, please bring them here, trying to avoid attacking me356's character.

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