The Playground

  • Nigel, you wonder..? :-)

    The most simple and only one logical explanation is: his stuff doesn't work nor will it be approved for sale elsewhere in the world. Instead of making money like hell and buy the entire Florida peninsula he spends endless time with BS talks to himself for his followers on JONP and wastes millions in a completely useless lawsuit. What a man!


  • "That they can possibly not raise the sum" True or False? ... it is obvious, read the papers, there is no hint that there is any guaranteed contract, commitment what s ever for this sum.

    "so they could not be interested seeing Rossi successfully running a long term test" True or False? ... the court papers say, that IH, Darden et.al do not accept this long term test for to meet the requirements of the license agreement and claim overhead that the test was not successful and denounce it as fraud.


    I'm going to persevere in the face of sustained lack of comprehension. Rends you are not arguing logically here - and conflating different things.


    Of course there is no guaranteed commitment, because they could not show investors working product, and would not ask for this until they did. The issue is whether it is most reasonable to suppose that with commercial LENR reproducible in their reactors tested by them - and any third party investors require - an investor would give them that money for an end of test payment to keep Rossi happy to this. The Cassarino notes make it clear that IH was thinking of this and that Woodford would very likely provide it. Common sense tells you that given such a disruptive low risk proposition many people would be interested.


    Of course they don't think the long-term test meets the requirements of the GPT! That does not mean they are uninterested in a successful test. Key to their interest in the success was the independent customer that would provide validation. Except as we know they did not exist.

  • There might be a good chance that IH may have had different goals and played "their game" from the beginning in this contract in order to get access to Rossis E-cat technology (in case it potentially worked this would have been a gold mine), but had to realize later on, that they were caught by Rossis "magnificence" and put over the barrel with his fake 1-year-1MW-heat-sell to his secret customer manufacturing plant.

    The first part of your speech is not necessarily connected to the second. You think it's possible that IH had a second aim when they started collaborating with Rossi and when you say "played their game in order to access Rossi's technology" it seems you conjecture that IH did not intend to pay him from the very beginning (maybe I'm interpreting you in the wrong way, I do not know). In any case, if IH had an initial purpose other than the one agreed upon in the contract, why do you think it was Rossi to cheat on them? Could it not be that IH has really made its initial plan?

  • Of course there is no guaranteed commitment,


    Thus, IH signed a license agreement on the payment of over 100 million US dollars, without ever having approximately the sum of money available, in the dare hope that in the case of a successful test somebody else would give money. And what is a successful test determines IH alone and if they do not like the result, then the contract partner and all who were involved in the test are accused of fraud but the IP is nevertheless requested. And this should be a serious business?

  • The first part of your speech is not necessarily connected to the second. You think it's possible that IH had a second aim when they started collaborating with Rossi and when you say "played their game in order to access Rossi's technology" it seems you conjecture that IH did not intend to pay him from the very beginning (maybe I'm interpreting you in the wrong way, I do not know). In any case, if IH had an initial purpose other than the one agreed upon in the contract, why do you think it was Rossi to cheat on them? Could it not be that IH has really made its initial plan?

    You got me wrong, indeed. Sorry for my misleading fomulation: with "playing a game" I wanted to poit out that this is in my eyes common behaviour of VC firms and investors who are seeking for business opportunities and are taking the associated risk into account. Getting the potentially very important IP and a working product (at least for the US territory) was for sure a plan, but I am also sure that IH did not intend to not pay Rossi if he succeded. Having this product in hands with the claimed COP of 40+ would easily compensate any contract obligations. They probably trusted Rossi in the beginning, otherwise they would not payed the initial 1o Mio$ which Rossi decided to invested in buying condos in Miami and not in his magic E-Cat to make it ready for the market (or make it work at all...). Now we should be patient and wait for the court decision.

  • Wow. Two weeks without internet, and it is like time stood still here as far as I can tell.

    Oh, well, another week, at least, without internet on my annual Boreal tour still to come... maybe two more weeks as I chase spring upwards in elevation.

    Hopefully something will be resolved by then.


    Not quite midnight sun here past midnight, but still blue skies...


    Solstice is coming!

  • If I were a believer, I would be discouraged too. The news of the last 12 months:


    Brillouin has moved the goalposts (again) to 2018


    Rossi continues in a lawsuit against the company that was supposed to make him credible


    The biggest news of 2017 (Me357) was a non-event.


    Please stick to Prozac and don't (and I repeat: DON'T) do heroin...

  • That's a bit silly. If Rossi's technology actually did work, why would IH break a contract that, if in force, would net them billions?

    The courts would absolutely slay them with damages and penalties.


    In my experience, businessfolk (even VCs!) are not generally that devious. Greedy, yes, often: but openly so, and they stick to contracts because failing to do so costs them bigly in money and reputation.


    Trump has a history of not sticking to contracts and stiffing his suppliers. Now he can get no credit, even lawyers don't want to deal with him, And if does buy any goods or services, you can bet your boots he pays top dollar, because the risks of dealing with him are priced in. So it goes for people who won't honour contracts.

  • Quote

    If Rossi's technology actually did work, why would IH break a contract that, if in force, would net them billions


    It didn't break the contract - it didn't pay after finishing one year test in time according to agreement.

    On the contrary, IH wants to keep E-Cat technology obstinately (why he should want to do it if it doesn't work) and he even issued a few new patents about it (which is one of reasons, why Rossi sued him).

    Don't affraid, IH knows wery well, that the E-Cat technology works.

  • It didn't break the contract - it didn't pay after finishing one year test in time according to agreement.

    On the contrary, IH wants to keep E-Cat technology obstinately (why he should want to do it if it doesn't work) and he even issued a few new patents about it (which is one of reasons, why Rossi sued him).

    Don't affraid, IH knows wery well, that the E-Cat technology works.


    Zephir_AWT


    I realise this is your view. I'm struggling to see how this is coherent. We can argue, as the lawyers will, about the rights and wrongs of the contract. But how can it be in IH interest NOT to offer to pay up (at least something) if the delivered IP actually works. They were well aware Rossi wanted the money and was armed with lawyers. With working disruptive technology you surely don't imagine those notes from Cassarino talking about $200M funding and a pay-off to Rossi were unreasonable?


    Looking at it now from Rossi POV, if his stuff works, why would he not demonstrate this to IH either by showing them how their reactors work (other than in the test setup that showed control reactors with high COP) or by allowing full access to the long-term test? After all his excuse of customer confidentiality does not wash. Surely Rossi would be highly motivated by $89M? And he has the rest of the world market to do his own deals in unrestricted by the IH contract.


    Finally, if Rossi's reactors as given to IH work, surely Rossi would submit expert evidence to prove that? It is important (a) for his credibility with other investors and (b) to show that he has transferred IP to IH as required. IP transfer includes all the information etc necessary to reproduce working devices. It is quite clear that Murray was asking questions looking for answers, and a working e-cat tested by Murray would be a very convincing answer both for IH before the test end and for the Court now. Or, if Murray would not cooperate, just the recorded fact that Rossi had offered this would count strongly in his favour.

  • LENR now shares the same space in my mind as the Philosopher's Stone, Bigfoot, and the IC engine that runs on water. Phantasmagoria, followed by dedicated deniers of reality, but which fade and vanish when solid evidence is demanded.

    That may be true of Rossi's version of LENR, but it does not apply to what Fleischmann and Pons discovered. That has been widely replicated at high signal to noise ratios. See:


    http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/McKubreMCHcoldfusionb.pdf



  • LENR now shares the same space in my mind as the Philosopher's Stone, Bigfoot, and the IC engine that runs on water. Phantasmagoria, followed by dedicated deniers of reality, but which fade and vanish when solid evidence is demanded.


    Nigel,


    I share your frustration, but only with the NiH side of LENR. They are the ones who promised the most and delivered the least. Of course, we all know about Rossi, but in addition to BEC you mentioned, Piantelli has also been a disappointment. His Nichenergy refreshed their website 2 years ago, almost reached a deal with MFMP, and we have not heard a peep out of them since.


    Not sure how GEC fits in, but they were the only LENR based company to have almost sold a product, and since have dropped off the radar. How can that happen?


    On the bright side, the FPs/PdD branch of the field seems solid, and looks to be on to something.

  • That may be true of Rossi's version of LENR, but it does not apply to what Fleischmann and Pons discovered. That has been widely replicated at high signal to noise ratios. See:


    http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/McKubreMCHcoldfusionb.pdf



    Thanks, Jed.

    That McKubre review was published in 2009. Have there, in your view, been significant advances since? I recognise, of course, that there would be an understandable tendency to keep any such under wraps for as long as possible and for damn good reasons. Nevertheless, one would like to think that good, careful science and engineering were taking this forward.

  • I don't understand why bob Higgins and can run his expierements through all of you guys. Unless he needs a quick laugh every now and again from reading all of the silly back and fourth armchair scientists that no matter what argue about someone . Sure makes it hard for me to follow actual information. A lot of you seem like you know some stuff that would be helpful but even if you agree with someone you will go out of your way to research why you are more right than they are. Complete f...ing nonsense use that time to mabee help a little. Again if you do not believe that lenr works I am ok with that go on about your business and quit arguing try getting laid instead of comeing here every 5 minutes. (That was a joke). Seriously I have read some interesting things from one person in particular but lately he has turned into another guy who quit following because he was so pissed off at me356, mabee that guy just changed his name very familiar in his rants. Me356 has done everything he has ever said he was going to do so I don't see the problem let him do his patent thing and he will probably share more info. Rossi is all about a buck along with burllion blacklight power and everyone else . your talking about a shit ton of dinero here , so let's not pretend about this humanity thing and free to the world I like money too!!!!! so I am cool with whatever but I really want to know if it is possible so let's see if we can help a little more cause it is really starting to suck here and I only have three sites I care to follow. Pleeeease. Moderators feel free to move this to every other thread you have!

  • That McKubre review was published in 2009. Have there, in your view, been significant advances since?

    Nope. Not as far as I know. McKubre retired. Nearly all the researchers I know are retired or dead. There is practically no research going on, never mind advances.


    Still, the proof that McKubre cites in the paper is as good today as it was when the experiments were done. Scientifically proven facts do not have a shelf life.

  • Nope. Not as far as I know. McKubre retired. Nearly all the researchers I know are retired or dead. There is practically no research going on, never mind advances.


    Still, the proof that McKubre cites in the paper is as good today as it was when the experiments were done. Scientifically proven facts do not have a shelf life.

    How would you go about reviving research into what could be be a very important technology, given the apparently ample evidence from reputable teams and individuals that excess heat can be obtained without irradiating everything close to the reactor? (and without the involvement of known scammers)

  • How would you go about reviving research into what could be be a very important technology, given the apparently ample evidence from reputable teams and individuals that excess heat can be obtained without irradiating everything close to the reactor?

    I wish I knew how to do that. I have been trying to accomplish that for the last 20 years, without success.


    It takes money. If we had money, we could attract good researchers. Skeptical opposition would fade away. As Stan Szpak said, scientists believe whatever you pay them to believe. At the height of the fury in 1989, some of the famous scientists who were publicly excoriating cold fusion were quietly applying to EPRI for grants to study it, according to Tom Passell, who was in charge of allocating the grants.


    There are a few projects, such as the one at Texas Tech. I can't take any credit for that, and I do not know what they are up to. Supposedly it is being financed by Bill Gates but maybe that's just a rumor.


    I had high hopes that I.H. would fund research. I think they would have, but they have been derailed by the lawsuit. They fired the technical staff. They may be funding a few studies, but I doubt they will contribute significant amounts of money. That is why I say Rossi destroyed the last, best hope for cold fusion.

  • Quote

    Nigel,


    I share your frustration, but only with the NiH side of LENR. They are the ones who promised the most and delivered the least. Of course, we all know about Rossi, but in addition to BEC you mentioned, Piantelli has also been a disappointment. His Nichenergy refreshed their website 2 years ago, almost reached a deal with MFMP, and we have not heard a peep out of them since.


    And then there are also Celani, Swartz, Dennis what-s-his-name, George Miley, Hagelstein, and probably several others I forget, who promised impressive demos or even products one or more years ago.



    Quote

    Not sure how GEC fits in, but they were the only LENR based company to have almost sold a product, and since have dropped off the radar. How can that happen?


    How can that happen? Wow. I dunno. I *almost* sold my energy-producing pink invisible flying unicorns (PIFU's™) but they kept using their invisibility to elude me whenever a customer approached. That really spoils the trade. Reminds me of Rossi's ecats and his robotic factories. The operative word is *almost*. And that all too common "down to" which precedes a price in an ad.


    Quote

    On the bright side, the FPs/PdD branch of the field seems solid, and looks to be on to something.


    Really?? On to what, exactly? See anyone making appreciable and measurable power with that technology (if you can call it that)?

  • Thus, IH signed a license agreement on the payment of over 100 million US dollars, without ever having approximately the sum of money available, in the dare hope that in the case of a successful test somebody else would give money. And what is a successful test determines IH alone and if they do not like the result, then the contract partner and all who were involved in the test are accused of fraud but the IP is nevertheless requested. And this should be a serious business?

    It does not seem to me to be a serious business, but it can be considered profitable. In the end, IH did not pay, claiming that they did not receive the IP, and all the people believe them because IH says they had not been able to reproduce a functioning reactor. And if it was not so? In a different scenario, IH understood perfectly how to create the E-Cat, did not pay Rossi with the expected 89 million but can help other members of their portfolio to generate working reactors. It's just an hypothesis ... but I do not exclude it at all.

  • And then there are also Celani, Swartz, Dennis what-s-his-name, George Miley, Hagelstein, and probably several others I forget, who promised impressive demos or even products one or more years ago.

    It would be quite simple to get the full list of participants so that you can insult them all,

    BTW I have heard that also Dewey Weaver is at Asti would you like to insult also him ?

    If you religiously and not scientifically think that there isn't any LENR phenomena why you are posting here ? and also is quite interesting that you have the licence of insults and your posts are not moved in the recyclable material .......

    May be they are waste to much toxic to be handled ! :)

  • It takes money. If we had money, we could attract good researchers. Skeptical opposition would fade away.

    Big money for big research normally come from Nations. And instead of express yourself in a generic way why don't you write a research program.

    Science in fact don't need pure money. Science need laboratories, apparata, people salary and a sound research program, If you have the last one you will obtain the rest.


    I had high hopes that I.H. would fund research. I think they would have, but they have been derailed by the lawsuit. They fired the technical staff. They may be funding a few studies, but I doubt they will contribute significant amounts of money. That is why I say Rossi destroyed the last, best hope for cold fusion.

    Bla bla bla blah

    All of you here were saying that IH had rose almost no money. Still IH has promised to host the next ICCF congress. Good we will see ! And as usual in order to insult Rossi you forget that National Instruments and Nasa (just to say two US realities) were interested in financing LENR.

    In JAPAN there are also other industries doing so. IH is not alone and even if it will lose the trial Woodford & co would have sufficient amount of money to finance LENR for years.

  • If I were a believer, I would be discouraged too. The news of the last 12 months:


    Brillouin has moved the goalposts (again) to 2018


    Rossi continues in a lawsuit against the company that was supposed to make him credible


    The biggest news of 2017 (Me357) was a non-event.


    Please stick to Prozac and don't (and I repeat: DON'T) do heroin...

    The lawsuit will end in a short time and if it will be positive for Rossi, he will have enough money to finance any new product. Moreover from Asti come good news, they talk about COP 3. I would wait before filling me with pills .....