Now IH have lost E-Cat License and IP, who will manufacture E-Cats in the US?

Quote from Tom Paulsen

quizzical wrote:

This was reasonably correct, in a way. But it is not true that we cause no harm when we delude ourselves, particularly when this self-delusion is then passed on to others.

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Delusion is not a criminal action, but deceiving others to cash in 11.5 m$ is not only "harm and foul" it is called fraud. And this is a criminal action.

Yes, This is potentially a criminal offense. And then Tom continued:

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If Rossi has nothing in terms of IP, then he has not only defrauded IH, but also deceived all of his followers. And then you would be the only one who thinks that this is "no harm, no foul".

This was quite clear. However, what is clear on Planet Earth is not clear on Planet Rossi

Quote from IH Fanboy

Tom Paulsen wrote:

Notice that context has been lost by incomplete quotation. And then it is totally lost, in order to make Tom wrong.

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This is not fraud. Having "nothing in terms of IP" is dependent on an examination by a U.S. government agency and in many ways is outside the control of an inventor.

"Having nothing in terms of IP" was a manner of speaking about fraud, which would not merely be "having nothing," it would not be mere error, it would be faking something, engaging in deception for the purpose of obtaining an advantage, i.e., the payment. The idea assumes that if there were actually nothing, it would not appear to be something through so many different demonstrations and tests. There is a gray area, there is an edge of the cliff, and if one hangs out near the edge, sometimes one will fall over. I'll explain this.

"US government agency" here is unspecified. Prosecution for criminal fraud would be by a government agency. Whether or not Rossi "has something in terms of IP," though, is not relevant to that. The Rossi Effect could be real, yet he could still be prosecuted for fraud if he created fake results leading to investment. Then there is the issue of harm, and that is what was being discussed. Several potential harms are involved here. "Harm" is not necessarily illegal.

In 2011, I believe, I pointed out that it was not illegal for Rossi to run a magic show, to make idiots out of experts, in quite a number of ways, as long as he was not deceiving investors. Rossi sold licences, we think, but bought them back when IH invested. He could still be prosecuted if fraud was involved there, but it's far from likely. As I understand the matter, the buyback would (mostly) prevent a civil fraud prosecution, but not criminal fraud.

However, let's say that Rossi consolidated all the cases through his agreement with IH.

However, there are the other effects. In spite of the unsupported opinions of some here, the announcement of major NiH results had a large impact on the cold fusion research community. Most of that community does not participate in public discussion, but this opinion has been expressed privately among CMNS researchers, often, and there is little disagreement as to harm. It has often been expressed this way :"Why bother with watts when Rossi is running kilowatts?" Whether the researchers believed Rossis claims or not -- some did, some didn't -- this also affected funding. Rossi did stir up enthusiasm, with MFMP pursuing NiH effects. Whether or no this was a benefit or a harm remains to be seen. Most efforts to show NiH LENR have been inconclusive at best. And most efforts have been trying to "replicate Rossi." If there is nothing to replicate, this has been a colossal waste of time and money. "Harm" is not limited to what is criminal. Much harm is not criminal.

I once again add that these considerations are not based on a "fact" of Rossi having or not having some real effect and the knowledge of how to create it.

It is easy to way, "Wait until the ERV report is available," but it might never become available. What is becoming clear is something what I've been promoting for some years: we should not put all our eggs in the Rossi basket, it was far too risky.

We need to proceed -- most of us -- as if the Rossi Effect is not real. The study of NiH reactions is going to continue even if Rossi had nothing, is exposed as a total con. NiH LENR has a modelst level of other experimental support, simply much less than for PdD.

We need sober examination of what McKubre called the "parameter space" of cold fusion. We need to nail down and show by confirmed and replicable experimental evidence the reality of cold fusion and then how it actually operates, what it does, and then how to create the effect, and then how to apply it, using the methods of science and engineering. Humanity needs this.

I invite skeptics to participate in this process. When I suggest experiment to demonstrate the reality of cold fusion, these experiments would also demonstrate artifact, if "cold fusion" is an illusion, a big mistake. We need to know, it's time that to remove the "con" from confusion. What is happening? Fusion? Some other reaction? Artifact? File drawer effect? What is happening?

Pseudoskeptics will focus, often, on personalities, i.e. alleged frauds and con artists and deluded scientists who lost it somewhere and, and will consider imagined artifact as if it were proof.

The edge of the cliff. In the Lugano test, there was an internal thermocouple, Rossi used this for setup and possibly for control. At the end of the test, Rossi returned and shut the device down. He knew the temperature. He would have known that it was nowhere near 1400 C external. But he allowed the Lugano researchers to go ahead with that claim. He allowed a false impression to be maintained and promulgated which, among other things, could have had an impact on IH. If I'm correct, IH manufactured the Lugano device. Allowing someone to believe a thing to their detriment could be fraud. Even if not, in itself, it could help create an impression of fraud in a fraud prosecution.

Rossi has been playing a very dangerous game.