LFH Sam, Do you mean Deep River Ventures?
...Guess so, you edited that out of your comment now so ignore this
LFH Sam, Do you mean Deep River Ventures?
...Guess so, you edited that out of your comment now so ignore this
Question for DW. 'The Secret Sauce'.
Over the years since the Rossi saga began ,there has been a lot of speculation about 'the secret sauce'. In other words, an extra ingedient or ingredients in addition to Ni,Li, and LiAlH4. Do you know if there is such a 'secret sauce' -which might well have been bundled into a patent along with all the pther items listed as 'possibles'. But the question is a simple one- are replicators not knowing about extra ingredients missing something?
Try to resist derailing the question by telling me that 'we cannot substantiate' - just say 'Yes there is' or 'no there isn't. Then I will let it rest.
Also found this interesting comment from nckhawk in the archive ... Rember; at this time there was no complaint, IH thought they still had Rossi in a NDA leash, but become worried when it dawned upon them that they had not recieved quarkX IP ... and at that time this was a problem because they did not intend to pay ... bad move Dewey. Bad move ... You're f***ed.
Quote from "theOldWeaver"What happened to the E-Cat 1MW factory and all of that excitement of just 6 or 8 weeks ago? How (and why) have the gears changed this quickly? I hope it is all true but this all defies logic and has to remain in the realm of the nearly impossible until he proves otherwise.
...
I don’t see how Rossi has innovated from a 1MW shipping container to a 100W “quark” so quickly. He claimed safety certification for the 1MW shipping before the start of his 1 year test. His bait, buy time and switch tactics continue. Regarding the 1MW system to the latest, that is like going from a one-off of the Model-T prototype to full scale production of a Prius and / or Leaf in 1 year’s time. It all reads as if he is up to something to me and I’m concerned about it. Cold Fusion research is just now broadly coming back to life and the sector cannot afford a big deception – that is why I am urging caution and sobriety while anticipating some trouble ahead.
Here are som more quotes by the old Weaver: http://www.sifferkoll.se/siffe…ip-to-be-core-of-the-war/
Over the years since the Rossi saga began ,there has been a lot of speculation about 'the secret sauce'. In other words, an extra ingedient or ingredients in addition to Ni,Li, and LiAlH4. Do you know if there is such a 'secret sauce'
I do not know whether there is any sauce. I suppose there is none, because I doubt Rossi's reactors work, although some of the earlier ones may have worked. HOWEVER, here is something I know for sure, having talked to David French and other experts:
If there is a secret sauce, and it is not revealed in the patents, those patents will eventually be thrown out. In other words, if Rossi decided to hide critical aspects of the invention, he destroyed his own patent and threw away a trillion dollars of intellectual property.
Dewey, no I will not since I told I'm not in any relations to him, Mr Rossi sees your message written here or most probably not since he has repeated in JONP that he is not following forums.
Sad to see testosterone, emotions and business arrogance to kick in again. Only history will tell was it a wise move or smart move. At least I can say I died trying, luckily only emotionally towards humanity today.
What ever happens from now on between IH and Mr Rossi is most probably well deserved, and I will focus following more on real events than talks and speculations.
All the best whatever the parties decide to do next
Alan
Smith wrote:
Over the years since the Rossi saga began ,there has been a lot of
speculation about 'the secret sauce'. In other words, an extra ingedient
or ingredients in addition to Ni,Li, and LiAlH4. Do you know if there
is such a 'secret sauce'
In the earlier models (early 2011) with H2 gas there was no Li in the fuel, so
obviously Li is not needed (if you believe the early ones worked).
The idea to use Li was probably something Rossi got from Sven K. Rossi
believed that p+7Li --> 2 alphas would not give any external
radiation (high energy gammas, neutrons). This is of course incorrect.
Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:
I don't know about that. Rossi says he played no role in either test, but the first one was in his lab and I get a sense he may of offered them some advice on calorimetry. If so, for once it was good advice. I do not think he played much of an active role in either test, except perhaps with the powder.
If "Rossi says" he played no role, that's a conclusory statement, hinging on what he means by "no role," which would refer, properly, to the analysis, which, very likely, he knew was deluded. This is from the Lugano report, http://www.elforsk.se/Global/O…er/LuganoReportSubmit.pdf
QuoteIn the course of the year following the previous tests, the E-Cat’s technology was transferred to Industrial Heat LLC, United States, where it was replicated and improved. The present E-Cat reactor is therefore an improved version running at higher temperature than the one used in the March 2013 experiment. The general experimental procedure in the present test was the same as in the March test, i.e. the input power was carefully monitored with appropriate instruments, and the output power was determined by measuring the emitted radiation as well as calculating the heat dissipation from convection. The test started with a run with no fuel in the reactor in order to make sure that our experimental set-up gave a perfect balance between the measured input and output power.
Since we required that our measurements be carried out in an independent laboratory with our own equipment, the experiment was purposely set-up and hosted within an industrial establishment which was not in any way connected with Andrea Rossi’s businesses or those of his partners. The test was thus performed in Barbengo (Lugano), Switzerland, in a laboratory placed at our disposal by Officine Ghidoni SA.
I notice the reference to improvement at IH. Was anyone from IH involved with that "improvement"? If so, of course, their name could be on a subsequent patent application. And there goes Rossi's claim of bogus patent application. Of course, the technology wasn't actually replicated. IH made the Lugano reactor, which apparently did not produce significant XP.
QuoteThe dummy reactor was switched on at 12:20 PM of 24 February 2014 by Andrea Rossi who gradually brought it to the power level requested by us. Rossi later intervened to switch off the dummy, and in the following subsequent operations on the E-Cat: charge insertion, reactor startup, reactor shutdown and powder charge extraction. Throughout the test, no further intervention or interference on his part occurred; moreover, all phases of the test were monitored directly by the collaboration.
So ... Rossi was there during the critical dummy run, and the limitation on input power to 500 W would have very likely been his doing, with him giving them the explanation that the wires could burn out with more power, which they then repeated as if it were fact.
QuoteThe first phase of the test was dedicated to measuring the “dummy reactor”, i.e. the E-Cat operating without its internal charge. Conservation of energy dictates that all power supplied to the dummy reactor from the electric power line be dissipated as thermal energy to the environment by means of radiation and convection. Therefore, by comparing power input, as measured by the two power analyzers, to power output as measured by us, we were able to ascertain that no overestimation had occurred. In other words, the data relevant to the dummy reactor served the purpose of checking the method used. However, it was not meant to compare the operation of the loaded reactor to the dummy run. In fact, such a procedure would have required that the same amount of power be supplied to the dummy and to the reactor. Moreover, at the start of the measurements, there was no way of knowing what input power the loaded reactor would have absorbed. In fact, it is well known that some Inconel cables have a crystalline structure that is modified by temperature, and are capable of withstanding high currents only if they are operated at the appropriate temperature. If these conditions are not met, microscopic melt spots are liable to occur in the cables. So, there was some fear of fracturing the ceramic body, due to the lower temperature of the thermal generators with respect to the loaded reactor. For these reasons, power to the dummy reactor was held at below 500 W, in order to avoid any possible damage to the apparatus.
The "IP" from Rossi would include power-up procedure. To be a calibration, the dummy run should preferably be identical to the experimental run, except for the absence of fuel. In the best calibrations, there is a dummy fuel, selected to have thermal characteristics like the fuel. In a better calibration, there would be a dummy heater installed in a dummy fuel cylinder, because heat location can matter. So the power-up procedure specified by Rossi should have been used with the dummy. Is it the claim that if the fuel was inactive, the thing might burn out? Only if the setup requires increasing the power without limit would that occur. There would be a known limit based on the wire characteristics. There would be a specification as to how quickly the power could be applied and for a calibration, one would generally want to increase power slowly anyway, to let the device reach thermal equilibrium at various input powers.
Rossi was in charge, still. "Independent lab" was a joke. All that ruled out was some special lab setup with secret wires or the like. The same thinking, carried through to a logical conclusion, would have said, "Rossi not there."
When we first heard about Lugano, many of us thought that only Rossi knew the secret startup procedure. But if the IP had been fully transferred to IH, an IH representative could have powered it up and shut it down. I read Lugano back then and didn't remember the bit about the device having been made by IH. Somehow, that sailed right by me back then. I think I read "improved" as 'having been improved by Rossi." So the "independent scientists" watched paint dry, and watched Rossi. They had lots of time to think. How about another calibration run, duplicating the power used in the experimental run? If the thing melts down, ah, that would be interesting, wouldn't it? What would the camera have shown? In theory, if IH allowed it, and I bet they would have, they should take the power up until it melts down. Ideally, calibration heating power should be taken up to the claimed measured output power. That would definitely burn it out, unless one did the sane thing: put in additional heating coils. However, it's reasonably clear from later analysis: the output power was not significantly higher than input power, and the IR camera would have given the same readings.
(And this shows a difficulty with full testing on full-scale devices. To me, it looks like it may be easier to fake results with higher power devices than with lower power! Better excuses are available! Plus, there is the "Hey, it's about to blow! Get away!" trick is available if anyone gets too nosy).
So who set the IR camera? Who made those critical decisions? Possibly Levi.
If "Rossi says" he played no role, that's a conclusory statement, hinging on what he means by "no role,"
No, that's what I heard from the people who did the test at his lab. They said he basically gave them the run of the place and did not interfere. I recall they had a time lapse video camera set up to make sure no one touched the equipment after hours or when no one else was there. Levi has seldom communicated with me, but some of the others were friendly and helpful. Unfortunately, I never heard from them after Lugano. I do not think they responded to others either.
Okay Argon - get Rossi to send a letter to Tom Darden offering to buy back his license and the 1MW unit. $11.5M plus reasonable contract separation terms, mutual indemnifications and confidentiality agreements. He'll need to move quickly as the bombers are fueled and ready
I don't know Florida law, or applicable federal rules, but in California, a formal settlement offer creates a presumption that the other party, if they do not obtain better terms by a final decision, is entitled to legal costs. IH could also send such a letter. What Dewey has suggested here is about exactly on. It does not include compensation for other IH expenses, nor for legal expense. It would be a reasonable offer. As soon as the court rules on the Motion to Dismiss, an Answer becomes necessary for IH. That is where the heavy claims will be made, and IH may also countersue for nonperformance in the Agreement, and if they include fraud claims, triple damages become appropriate.
If there is a secret sauce, and it is not revealed in the patents, those patents will eventually be thrown out. In other words, if Rossi decided to hide critical aspects of the invention, he destroyed his own patent and threw away a trillion dollars of intellectual property.
It may well be revealed in a patent Jed. We all know about that aspect of the rules. However, the patents (as I remember them) include a whole portfolio of other elements/material as being 'useful' So it could be included there but not in an obvious 'secret sauce' way.
Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:
No, that's what I heard from the people who did the test at his lab. They said he basically gave them the run of the place and did not interfere. I recall they had a time lapse video camera set up to make sure no one touched the equipment after hours or when no one else was there. Levi has seldom communicated with me, but some of the others were friendly and helpful. Unfortunately, I never heard from them after Lugano. I do not think they responded to others either.
Jed, you are not being careful. I quoted you on "Rossi says." So you also heard that from "the people who did the test." But rather obviously, then, "no role" doesn't mean "no role" in ordinary English, it means "no role" in a special language used on Planet Rossi. So Rossi did not touch the reactor while it was sitting there, baking cookies, sintering nickel. So? He was apparently there during the entire dummy run, and at the start and end of the experimental run.
Abd, thanks for your clarfication, but sorry I don't know Florida justice system and didn't get much from your reply since many unknown terms and I'm not native English speaker. If you refer on something that things needs to happen in certain order at this point, that I did not know, just tried to think as layman on way to solve this unnecessary knot.
Since I don't know FL laws I withdraw myself from this law detail. I hope someone can write in plain simple layman English what is the problem you tried to describe here.
No. It was just because it was puerile and undignified name calling.
Dewey, you are being held to a higher standard. That's okay. I recommend it.
On the other hand, maybe it's fun to cut loose and tell people what you think. I must say that when one denizen of Planet Rossi complained here that he was being accused of having the intelligence of a two-year old, I was tempted to defend him by saying, "No, that's a lie. You don't." I learned to talk like this at Cal Tech, this is how undergrads there in 1961-64 talked to each other. But normies dislike it, even as a joke.
Abd, thanks for your clarfication, but sorry I don't know Florida justice system and didn't get much from your reply since many unknown terms and I'm not native English speaker. If you refer on something that things needs to happen in certain order at this point, that I did not know, just tried to think as layman on way to solve this unnecessary knot.
Since I don't know FL laws I withdraw myself from this law detail. I hope someone can write in plain simple layman English what is the problem you tried to describe here.
What I wrote was standard English. It's not a problem. It's encouragement to write a settlement offer, because, if you do, and then the settlement is rejected, and you get better results from the court decision, you can get reimbursed for legal costs even if otherwise you would have to bear them. I just don't know if that rule applies in this particular court. The lawyers would surely know.
But normies dislike it, even as a joke.
Normies Abd? Normies? What's a Normie when it's home?
Hi all
In reply to Jed on the matter of a secret sauce and its effect on a patent.
Various parties in Russia and China as well as others such as ME356 and MFMP have made claim to a degree of replication based on the Rossi Patent. That is all that is needed to sustain the patent, in point of fact that is the perfect patent. Just enough to prove it but not enough to give away mastery.
As to IH all they have to do is release the ERV and pay up, then they will be back on team Rossi, just in future Rossi will have his lawyers fine tooth comb every contract, and the animus and the need to prevent it ever happening again will ensure they are a little behind other regions. So either another managment structure possible with some one of the stature of Bill Gates as CEO and or a larger cut and control for Rossi and Leonardo.
Kind Regards walker
It may well be revealed in a patent Jed.
If it is revealed in the patent, then it is not secret. Right? Maybe I don't follow what you are saying.
A secret sauce shown in a patent reminds me of this exchange in the movie "Duck Soup:"
Vera Marcal: Oh, for heaven's sake, whatever you do, don't make a sound! If you found, you lost!
Chicolini (Chico Marx): Oh, you crazy. How can I be lost if I'm found?
Okay Argon - get Rossi to send a letter to Tom Darden offering to buy back his license and the 1MW unit. $11.5M plus reasonable contract separation terms, mutual indemnifications and confidentiality agreements. He'll need to move quickly as the bombers are fueled and ready.
Rossi told Lewan this:
"During summer 2015, IH offered Rossi to back out from the test and cancel it, with a significant sum of money as compensation. Rossi’s counter offer was to give back the already paid 11.5M and cancel the license agreement, but IH didn’t accept."
See if Rossi is willing to accept the same terms now, as his counteroffer then. If he accepts, you both go your merry ways. Then we can get back to waiting for that happy customer he has promised for years now. , and IH can focus all their attention on the others in their portfolio.
Abd, Thank you for clarification. now I got you. Just hope Mr Rossi or his attorneys follow this forum and consider everything, I don't know how I could be any help in that particularity.
Best wishes
Shane D, Thank you pointing out this detail in Mats Lewan interview. I also weakly recalled this claim, which is quite the opposite what Dewey said in posting you quoted. Clear conflict there and topic of wholly new endless thread of fighting and speculation.
Nevertheless this whole thing seems to be slipped out from my reach now and I really feel that people have not read what I wrote, or at least didn't respect/understand delicatines of the situation and unique momentum, no matter how weak. By using this chance wisely, in my mind there could have been possibility if there would have been honest will in both sides.
I still hope someone is also wise enough and something happens behind the curtains by Mr Rossi and Mr Darden but believe me, I am not in any position to affect on it, nor have any contacts, so unless someone else informs Mr Rossi or his attorney, he will not see Deweys message. I think they lost the opportunity.
I feel sad so bloody bloody sad, but on the other hand if ones are stubborn irish boneheads at the end they just get what they deserves.
Thank you Shane D for your efforts to perceive the situation, your observations have been sharp.