Have IH let their E-Cat License lapse by inaction?

    Quote from Rends

    But what I do not understand is why Rossi filled this lawsuit, that would break his neck if you are right? It is not against your statement, or that I do not believe you, is more a general question of understanding, because it simply does not make any sense to go to court to get yourself unmask as an impostor, that would be schizophrenic!


    I too cannot understand why Rossi filed the lawsuit. I have been following his career for some time. I see he has done many strange things and many self-destructive things. Perhaps he is mentally unbalanced; I cannot judge that.


    However, it seems to me, he has made a lot money by doing outrageous things and by pushing things to the limits with lawsuits, intimidation, outrageous "tests" that prove nothing, and other bold, unscrupulous behavior. That seems to be how he makes a living. He is old. He has been doing this successfully for a long time. So I guess he figures he will continue to make lot of money doing this sort of thing.


    I hope I.H. can stop him this time, before he defrauds the next set of investors.


    The thing that worries me is that might have actually made an important discovery. Instead of developing it, he is using it to defraud people, and that may cause the discovery to be lost. His fraud and the loss of $10 million is regrettable, but it only affects a few people. The loss of the discovery (if real) would be catastrophic for the whole human race.

    Quote from Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

    But what we can see here, as very likely: IH was not able to demonstrate the effect with devices of their own manufacture.


    I am pretty sure the 1-MW device was manufactured by Rossi. Rossi was not able to demonstrate the effect on that device. That was I.H.'s conclusion.


    The motion to dismiss references multiple devices, which I.H. says did not work. I do not know about them, and I do not know who made them. My comment here applies only to the gigantic 1-MW gadget.


    I wish Rossi had never thought of making such a large machine!

    Quote from quizzical

    Abd wrote: "This is classic Planet Rossi thinking, believing that what is on blogs and internet fora is actually important. "


    There is no such thing as "Planet Rossi" thinking! Why do you and Dewey and others continue to engage in this kind of ad hominem and degrading language?

    Of course there is no such thing as "Planet Rossi." That is a high-level generalization, an interpretation, and these things only exist as stories, and stories exist because they have utility, not because they are "real." For me, the term has utility, just as do "pathoskeptic" or the older and more neutral "pseudoskeptic" or, in the other direction, "believers."


    On Moletrap, one of the memes that was playing out there when I sidled up to the bar was "pseudoskeptic." The community position was that there was, of course, no such thing. It was preposterous. And anyone who said otherwise was obviously a deluded believer. "Pseudoskeptic" was parodied and reduced to an absurdity, with the local mob cheering, because that community was largely founded by pseudoskeptics. (Pseudoskepticism shades in to ordinary skepticism, but there is a distinction: pseudoskeptics are sure that they are right and are especially certain that others are wrong and that what others believe is "impossible." Real skeptics do not do that.)


    Pseudoskepticism shades into pathological skepticism, which word has a utility where it applies to extreme behavior. Pathological skeptics drip with contempt.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoskepticism. my usage of the word is rooted in the thinking and writing of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcello_Truzzi but also in a man who was a hero of mine when I was a teenager, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Gardner. I later had the immense pleasure of being quoted by Gardner. And then I was dealing with pygmies on moletrap. It was fun. My purpose was to elicit as many genuine skeptical arguments as possible, and I did document them. My goal at present is to facilitate research and that requires knowing what issues might not yet be resolved. And those will commonly be found among pseudoskeptics, because not many skeptics are likely to be involved. They don't have the motivation necessary, mostly. We are getting some here, which is one reason I'm here. Genuine skepticism is golden.


    Quote

    Abd wrote: "Whatever Dewey writes here is not to "help IH's case" because practically nothing here is relevant in the real case, taking place in a court of law. IH is not on trial here. The officers likely don't give a fig about what is said here and what anonymous or even known writers think."


    This is obvious but thanks for explaining it to us.

    You're welcome. Explaining the obvious is a specialty of mine, I'm known for it. Sometimes I explain the obvious so clearly that it becomes obvious for those who didn't notice it before. Often, when the truth comes out it was totally obvious, but we just didn't know where to look!


    Quote

    Abd wrote: There is one way, though, that he could be helping IH's case. Rossi reads this stuff or others take it to him, and he reacts and responds, and that provides possible ammunition for them to use, possibly to impeach his testimony when it comes to that."


    This is an interesting idea. So the idea is to provoke Rossi into making some sort of "self-incriminating" statement that can be used in the trial. That is an interesting tack, which further underlines the meaninglessness of most of what is posted here with regard to the IH/Rossi lawsuit.

    That is an effect noted, not proposed as a motivation. However, this does not establish that what is posted here is meaningless, only that it can have that function. I find it an interesting idea, though. Is there something wrong with it? I.e., suppose that this is a deliberate strategy, to provoke Rossi into impeaching himself. Remember that Rossi is going after IH with a meat cleaver, with everything and the kitchen sink. This could be a simple and easy aspect to a defense strategy. Only on Planet Rossi would this be considered reprehensible.


    Notice: almost nothing is being officially stated by IH. There are plenty of invitations here, effectively pleading with IH to defend themselves, explain this or that, and they are not doing it. Why not? Well, duh!!! Any attorney would tell them not to do that! So why is Rossi doing it? And then we get into the psychology of Rossi, which is the foundational psychology of Planet Rossi.


    Quote

    P.S. If nothing written on these fora matters, then why are you writing so consistently and voluminously?

    Again, I see how living on Planet Rossi damages thinking. I did not say that nothing here matters, only that it doesn't matter with respect to the lawsuit (and then I gave a possible exception). (this is not just a trait on Planet Rossi, it is a general trait of believers and pseudoskeptics, that what is written is not clearly understood, that meaning is projected onto it, and then response comes out of the projected meaning. Sifferkoll pointed to a speech that covers much of this. How people think that leads them into making huge mistakes.)


    Dewey wrote why he was here. I'm here because I follow the field, and the lawsuit is an event of major historical interest. Then, I learn by writing. I research and reflect and write. This is why so many of my comments are long. It's a record of my investigation. I may spend many hours writing an individual comment. I write polemic in a very different way. My goal overall is to catalyze clear thinking and then action that resolves issues, instead of just mushing them around, rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. I write because enough people tell me that they appreciate it. Occasionally they throw money at me, which helps. And I write to transform society, and I'm trained at that, and it's working. (That writing, though, will mostly be polemic, where I have a specific goal.)

    • Official Post
    Quote from JedRothwell

    The thing that worries me is that might have actually made an important discovery. Instead of developing it, he is using it to defraud people, and that may cause the discovery to be lost. His fraud and the loss of $10 million is regrettable, but it only affects a few people. The loss of the discovery (if real) would be catastrophic for the whole human race.


    But what if it is exactly the other way around? I my self was at one point very angry with Andrea Rossis behavior, but then I remembered my grandfather, who was an inventor, a very skilled, open minded, friendly but very strange person (like Emmett Lathrop "Doc" Brown, Ph.D in Back to the future) he was 91 years old when I met him the last time he spoke only of 'his laboratory', where he has not been for 30 years since then.


    I do not think, that Andrea Rossi is mentally ill, the other explanations, that he is a kind of combined victim/warrior in an massive global intellectual property war is much more likely!
    Greets
    Felix

    Quote from JedRothwell

    Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:


    I am pretty sure the 1-MW device was manufactured by Rossi. Rossi was not able to demonstrate the effect on that device. That was I.H.'s conclusion.

    I do not find the evidence clear on who made the 1 MW reactor used in the GPT. There was a 1 MW reactor made by Rossi and delivered to IH in August, 2013. If that is the same device, yes, he made it.


    Quote

    The motion to dismiss references multiple devices, which I.H. says did not work. I do not know about them, and I do not know who made them.

    It is not completely clear. Some were made by IH, though, I'm pretty sure.

    Quote

    My comment here applies only to the gigantic 1-MW gadget.


    I wish Rossi had never thought of making such a large machine!

    Indeed. What an abortion! It made everything difficult. The idea was Rossi's, I think, from 2011. That would be for a grand demonstration, that, one might think, could not possibly be fake or a mistake. However, if properly examined, a 1 KW device would be just as convincing, not to mention 10 or 20 KW. So the word would not merely be "grand," but "grandiose."


    We once again return to Rossi's personality, which appears to have swamped and overwhelmed everything.


    I suggest reading the post, Have IH let their E-Cat License lapse by inaction? (<--link) where Dewey lays out his motivations for posting here, which is based on his experience. I find it consistent with what fact can be teased from what Rossi alleges, merely a different point of view. Now, I proposed a theory of what might have been behind IH's decision to go ahead with Rossi, in spite of what many have said should have made them stay away. Dewey;s comments are consistent with that theory. However, Dewey probably read what I wrote. So is he presenting a fantasy to trick us?


    I don't think so. Dewey's comment reads as sober and direct and only starts to fall into his reactivity (possibly) at the end. Given his history as he has recounted it, his reactivity is ... normal. I'm generally calling people to what is extraordinary, not merely the normal, but people go there at their own pace. The entire LENR field has been, it would seem, jerked around by Rossi for five years. There are some scientists who are totally pissed, not their normal behavior.


    If there is a genuine friend of Rossi reading this, consider how to warn your friend.

    • Official Post
    Quote from JedRothwell


    What other way around? I don't follow what you mean. What alternative are you proposing?


    What I want to point out is: What if Andrea Rossi is actually a victim of a speculative IP dispute as described here https://thenewfire.wordpress.c…ry-vs-leonardo-corp-ecat/ ?


    I think Andrea Rossi is no saint, he is a business man, so he is interested in earning of as much money as possible. To 'save the world' is a kind of giveaway, but this is not prohibit by Rossi, it is circumvented by Darden et.al!
    Greets
    Felix

    Quote from Rends

    What I want to point out is: What if Andrea Rossi is actually a victim of a speculative IP dispute as described here thenewfire.wordpress.com/concl…ry-vs-leonardo-corp-ecat/ ?


    Nope, nope, nope. I think we can rule that out. Two reasons:


    If you want to kill cold fusion, there would be no need to spend money to "buy up patents." Just ignore it. Cold fusion has been moribund for 20 years. Only a handful of elderly scientists were doing it, and they will soon all be dead. If I.H. had not come along there would be no research at all.


    Uncle Sam will not let you "buy up patents" to suppress a technology. If an invention is important, or if it of any use to the military, you are not allowed to patent it (or buy the patent) and then not manufacture it. That can only be done for minor innovations. If you did it for cold fusion, and the government became aware of you actions and it knew cold fusion is real (admittedly a stretch) it would force you to commercialize or give up your rights to it.

    Quote from Rends


    What I want to point out is: What if Andrea Rossi is actually a victim of a speculative IP dispute as described here thenewfire.wordpress.com/concl…ry-vs-leonardo-corp-ecat/ ?

    I'll come back to that.


    Quote

    I think Andrea Rossi is no saint, he is a business man, so he is interested in earning of as much money as possible. To 'save the world' is a kind of giveaway, but this is not prohibit by Rossi, it is circumvented by Darden et.al!

    This is strange. Consider the situation before Rossi filed the suit. Rossi had $10 million from IH, he could spend as he liked. He could ignore them. He apparently did ignore them, continuing to develop his technology. How would Rossi be 'circumvented" by IH?


    Now, perhaps there are things we don't know. Perhaps IH was threatening Rossi. I can speculate until the cows come home, and even later. But Rossi has not actually alleged this. I have seen nothing alleged from Rossi, beyond non-payment of the $89 million, that would constitute interference with Rossi's work. Regardless of the IH license, Rossi could continue to develop the technology and sell it to the rest of the world. He could clean up the situation with the IH license territory later.


    Shortly before he filed the suit, Rossi was claiming everything was fine with IH. IH had issued a press release that hinted that something might be afoot, but nothing was clear. Rossi denied the speculation, attributing it to, what was the word, "clownery"? But the speculation was true. Something was very off. I think it almost certain that IH had made it clear that as matters stood, they would not be paying. (But not necessarily. They hadn't seen the formal ERV report until March 29.)


    But the world did not know about that. It did not know that there was any issue between Rossi and IH. It did not know the details of the license. Rossi was free to make agreements with other investors, and especially free if they did not conflict with the terms of the Agreement. Manufacturing in Sweden, not a problem!


    However, Rossi had been announcing, for more than a year, stories about the 1 MW reactor test. He may have created pressure for himself with that. None of this seems necessary, either for business purpose, nor for developing the technology, and, in fact, the 1 MW reactor test may have stolen a year from Rossi's life, damaging his health.


    Now, Rossi believed that a payment of $89 million hinged on that test. He had apparently set that up. If what Dewey has revealed is accurate, Rossi made that test more important than assisting his licensee in making devices, which was the core of the Agreement. He rejected a test site in Raleigh because the customer was connected with IH and would not seem "independent." But if the customer being connected with IH was a problem, what was the purpose of the test?


    I find it obvious: the purpose was not to convince IH, it was to convince the world.


    Yet, now, he cannot even release the results! (Or claims that his attorney prohibits it.). And, then, if an IH connected customer was a problem, how much more a dummy company set up for the purpose of the test, as alleged and probably apparent? No, if the test had happened in the Raleigh facility, and if it had worked, and the customer's usage of the steam would have been additional proof for IH, IH would almost certainly have agreed to pay Rossi if he then insured IP transfer. That a company would pay Rossi $89 million on the basis of a test, where they had authority over it, would have been more than enough proof for anything. but ... that did not happen!


    And when Rossi filed the suit, suddenly, overnight, the whole world knew that Rossi was unable to convince his investor, his licensee, to pay him $89 million. And because of the suit, the licensee reveals that the technology never worked for them, in spite of claimed extensive efforts (and a certain level of egg-on-the-face). And a few weeks before, Rossi was claiming everything was just fine with this customer, his partner.


    No, Rossi shot himself so badly that "in the foot" doesn't express it. And he made this decision, on the face of it, very quickly, because the suit was actually filed before the payment was past due. (To be sure, I think he saw it coming, but ... what efforts were made to negotiate? We don't know. It might come out, this can be relevant in matters like assessing attorney's fees.)


    Rends has said that he can't believe Rossi's attorney would file this if it were merely insane ravings. Rends does not understand what attorneys do in the U.S., my guess. Rossi has the right to be represented. The attorney will believe whatever Rossi tells him, on the face of it. (That is, will act as if he or she believes). If the client can pay a substantial retainer, the attorney will go ahead, and if the client is lying -- or high-functioning crazy --, the one who loses is the client, which is fair enough. The attorney will advise the client, generally, to settle, but if the client is adamant, a normal attorney will go ahead, if they are confident that they will be paid for their work, and it's a lot of work, and attorneys expect to be well paid. (There is pro bono work, but there the attorney has different motivations, generally.)


    Rossi has set for himself a legal course where the best outcome is likely years of litigation. One opinion I've seen is that Rossi is attempting to induce IH to settle, but .... let me put it this way. A forced settlement at this point, and especially if private, as these things often are, will leave Rossi with the full public impression of being a completely unreliable business partner, and dangerous. It will leave a public impression that his technology was actually worthless.


    If Rossi is a con artist, he is doomed, so let's look at the other possibility, he is the eccentric, paranoid inventor. The most likely scenario is that he decided not to transfer the IP to IH, thus guaranteeing that IH would be unhappy and would not pay.


    If a friend of Rossi can convince him to reverse course, he could withdraw the lawsuit as a misunderstanding, apologizing for what was unnecessary about it. He would commit to full IP transfer to IH. He would agree to scientifically valid testing. He would do all this on the full advice of counsel. If he actually has a technology that works, he could certainly do this. (He could do it even if IH was hostile.) A variation on this would be that there would be another 1 MW test, explicitly agreed to by both sides, with Rossi not being present, and in a fully-legitimate test location. Rossi would turn business decisions over to someone fully trusted and hopefully, competent. After insuring IP transfer, he could focus on his development projects.


    It's not often mentioned, but Rossi had a family in Italy that he appears to be estranged from. I think he had three children. There could be grandchildren. I would hope for his sake and his children's sake that he could reconcile with them and connect with them. Rossi has been a driven man, but ... he appears to have driven into a wall or off a cliff. If he actually has a technology, it could indeed be very, very important, worth more than trillion dollars. But how much are grandchildren worth? And how much is his life worth?


    By the way, if he's a con artist, he still has the children ... and he's still a human being, worthy of respect.

    Quote from Rends

    What I want to point out is: What if Andrea Rossi is actually a victim of a speculative IP dispute as described here https://thenewfire.wordpress.c…ry-vs-leonardo-corp-ecat/ ?

    Okay, I looked. I will be blunt. Someone who believes what is on that page is an idiot. There! Hey, Jed, I may have just called someone an idiot!


    Quote

    With Solar Energy you can obviously earn a lot more money!


    While the license agreement between Industrial Heat LLC and Leonardo Corp. calculated for the licensed territory with sums ranging up to US $ 20 billion, the calculations go at the Cherokee Investment Partners controlled IronOak Energy Company up to US $ 20 trillion! That would be a thousand times the amount ! A technology like an LENR ECAT (whether it could save the world, or not) is just very bad for this business and your own bank account, especially if you have invested in the multi-billion dollar solar energy funds of Darden et.al.

    Where do they get the $20 trillion from? Solar energy? No. It's this page: http://www.ironoak.energy/ ... which has a headline:

    Quote

    WE ARE CATALYSTS FOR CLEAN ENERGY INVESTMENT
    TAP INTO THE $20 TRILLION GLOBAL OPPORTUNITY FOR LOW-CARBON FINANCE

    Notice: low-carbon finance. That would include the e-cat technology. However, that particular company appears to be a consulting firm that focuses on "solar, energy storage, and electric vehicle markets."


    I often estimate the value of the commercialization of LENR at $1 trillion per year. $20 trillion is roughly $3,000 for every person on the planet. This is likely something like a 20-year return on investment.


    Quote

    A technology like an LENR ECAT (whether it could save the world, or not) is just very bad for this business and your own bank account, especially if you have invested in the multi-billion dollar solar energy funds of Darden et.al.

    No "multi-billion dollar solar energy fund is alleged. Cherokee is a $2.2 billion dollar company, but apparently that is (all?) in real estate, largely environmental clean-up projects. Is IronOak "Cherokee controlled"?


    http://www.ironoak.energy/team.html lists Dr. Christopher Wedding ... is the Co-Founder of IronOak Energy Insights, a clean energy market research platform supporting investment decisions with trend analysis, data curation, and collaboration software; a Senior Adviser at Cherokee Investment Partners, ... and then goes on with a list of accomplishments. He is an "advisor" at Cherokee. This is far, far, from establishing control over Iron Oak. There is an Iron Oak page with a testimonial by Darden about "Chris Wedding and his team." The Iron Oak page cited by TheNewFire has "Our clients and partners own 1 GW of renewable energy projects and are bringing $1 billion of new assets onto the market by 2017." Their clients. That is not their assets.


    Now, let's look at the "theory."

    First of all, Darden has not invested "billions" in solar energy, there is no sign of that. Clients of the consulting firm might have. There is only one large investment fund, Cherokee, which is in real estate, not solar energy. Who has "multi trillion dollar assets"? Certainly not Cherokee! However, what, then, did they supposedly do in pursuit of this nefarious plan?


    They gave Rossi $10 million for a license covering half the world, with an $89 million payment due later (quite clearly continent upon technology transfer). Notice, not exclusive rights. Rossi retained rights for half the world. So, suppose their plan was to sit on this "disruptive technology." Every year of delay makes it worth less, because what Rossi can invent, so can someone else, especially if they know roughly where to look. Meanwhile, Rossi continues development and is arranging licensing and transfer elsewhere. As in Sweden. So Rossi starts making devices in Sweden, and sells them to half the world.


    What is wrong with this picture? If Rossi is selling devices to half the world, they would be here, quickly. IH couldn't stop it. So by sitting on it instead of utilizing it, they could be losing that trillion, not protecting their other investments.


    This is a Rube Goldberg scheme dreamed up by people with far too much spare time on their hands. The thinking, however, may be more or less how Rossi thinks. The snakes!


    It looks to me like there might have been a year delay caused by the 1 MW test, a crazy idea, as nearly everyone knows. Maybe two years.

    Moderators (Alan): If you feel compelled to bowdlerize a participant's post because it contains content you find objectionable or against the rules of the forum (we must assume that you are not editing it simply because you don't like it) — please make it clear what text you've added, so that it is not confused for a comment from the original poster.

    • Official Post

    Hi Eric.


    I'm not sure what you mean exactly. The only action I can think of that might confuse was me appending the word 'Stoppit' to a DW rant. I clean forgot that this software doesn't automatically flag such interventions. Otherwise I have begun to use large bold type and describe why the content has been moderated. Nobody here offers me much counsel - in fact I am delighted to get feedback from forum users. Moderating a three-ring circus isn't easy.


    I really don't just remove stuff because i don't like it (I hope) and have pretty much divided my efforts between players on both sides of the net. I will be more careful in future to leave a clear footprint. Ta muchly.

    Alan


    Quote from Alan Smith

    I'm not sure what you mean exactly. The only action I can think of that might confuse was me appending the word 'Stoppit' to a DW rant. I clean forgot that this software doesn't automatically flag such interventions. Otherwise I have begun to use large bold type and describe why the content has been moderated. Nobody here offers me much counsel - in fact I am delighted to get feedback from forum users. Moderating a three-ring circus isn't easy.


    I really don't just remove stuff because i don't like it (I hope) and have pretty much divided my efforts between players on both sides of the net. I will be more careful in future to leave a clear footprint. Ta muchly.


    During a sparing session with TC he said to me 'ad homs' do your case no good'. For moderation purposes I think that would be a good starting point. From there it is a slippery slope into this foggy abyss that Huw Price called the 'reputation trap' which I think should be identified and (whatever side of the argument) moderated against. That is of course subjective and so will put you and others under much pressure so I am very sympathetic.


    Best regards
    Frank

    To Dewey Weaver,


    Dear Dewey I appreciate the sincerity of your Rossi essay
    and your dedication to your cause. I understand that your motivation is to fight against a wrong- Andrea Rossi who is evil does harm to the LENR field had backstabbing IH with an unjust Trial despite having achieved nothing, has no viable technology, cannot produce even a bit of excess heat, had performed a catastrophic one year Test, So the Trial is actually kind of suicide, you seem to be certain that Rossi will lose. (then why all this fuss?)
    Possibly it is not easy to deal with Rossi- I have not met him. He could not due harm to the LENR field if we consider the status of it on Jan 13, 2011. Almost zombie.
    You ignore a few facts and factoids thta can be lies- coming from the Web from Rossi and his circles- if they are lies tell please.
    1- the three intermediary reports of the ERV after 3 6 and 9 months are they rek and what was the feedback from IH;
    2- the story about IH seeing zero results but wanting to ve all chances to Rossi despite the theoretically valiid contract f or 94 milions $- more than risky!


    3- IH using the plant as bait for investors,


    4- the IH patent based on Rossi's technology'


    5- the slander comaing from Rossi that IH has borrowed know how elements from his IP to competitors


    6_ how have we to interpret "our LENR portfoliowas never stronger from IH's March 10, 2016 Statemnent?


    In order to paint a criminal portrait of Rossi (useful where, how, when- you have o explasin these facts factoids -awat- with arguments.


    BTW will you tetify in the Florida Court, with your right hand on the Bible that Rossi never was able to generate excess heat for IH?


    Please let's limit the discussion to the core- outcome of the Conflict


    I apologize for the delay in answering had medical problems- rheumatism. (painful)


    Nothing of this goes to the Blog- you know why.
    Best,
    Peter

    Quote from &quot;Peter Gluck&quot;

    BTW will you tetify in the Florida Court, with your right hand on the Bible that Rossi never was able to generate excess heat for IH?


    Very good question. I would like to include Vaughn and Darden as well ...


    My take is that one of the reasons for the extreme lack of real IH information and massive diversions and non accountability of Weaver et al statements is based on this tiny little issue.



    Oh. And I wrote a piece on the IH slandering PR strategy. http://www.sifferkoll.se/siffe…he-only-pr-strategy-left/

Subscribe to our newsletter

It's sent once a month, you can unsubscribe at anytime!

View archive of previous newsletters

* indicates required

Your email address will be used to send you email newsletters only. See our Privacy Policy for more information.

Our Partners

Supporting researchers for over 20 years
Want to Advertise or Sponsor LENR Forum?
CLICK HERE to contact us.