Jed Rothwell on an Unpublished E-Cat Test Report that “Looks Like it Worked”

IH Fanboy wrote:

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me:

Neutron detection has never been a consistent hallmark of cold fusion, despite the anomalous heat. So attacking P&F on this point won't get you far with LENR enthusiasts.

I actually don't expect to get far with LENR enthusiasts not matter what I do.

But the point of the neutron comment was in reference to the credibility of P&F. They were initially believed by a great many scientists because of their credibility. But to make such a mistake with neutrons, when claiming fusion, demonstrated surprising sloppiness. After that, their credibility was not enough. And when the evidence was examined, it was not enough either.

Quote from joshua cude

Exactly, and if were to offer an example of a scientific truth to a creationist for some purpose, you would not choose evolution.

I would not try to offer an example of scientific truth to a creationist, or to you. That would be a waste of time. Pearls before swine. It would be like reading aloud the opening lines of Soseki's masterpiece novel, "Grass by the Wayside." To a person who understands Japanese, that is one of the most lyrical novels of the twentieth century. To you, it would be meaningless noise. Because you do not know the language. All cold fusion papers are meaningless noise to you, because willful ignorance works the same way as regular ignorance. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Here is the first chapter of the book, in case you are wondering what it sounds like:

Wyttenbach wrote:

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me quoting Neil deGrasse Tyson:

So all the successful replicators were lying, according Your logic...

First, I was quoting NDT. I wouldn't put it that way (it took 40 days to become clear), and the misattribution is discourteous.

Second, your logic is faulty. They could simply have been mistaken, as they almost certainly were.

And Third, your side has no difficulty in attributing lies to an entire team at MIT, and essentially all of mainstream science.

Mary

Quote from Mary Yugo

1. Starting point: newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/Rossi…nvestigation-Index2.shtml

2. Specifically about criminality: newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/Rossi…al-Criminal-History.shtml

This is opinion that you have given us which may or may not have a basis in fact or it may not. Certainly as far as the law is concerned you are 'innocent until proven guilty'. So while I do not dispute the opinion about Rossi, I find it abhorrent to use terminology like 'criminal' when this relates in Rossi's case to some tax issues nothing more. All the rest is opinion.

Now where that opinion is supported by corroborated evidence and other facts that is legitimate I think but it is quite difficult to determine the truth of such information which is substantially 'subjective'

So if I ask you 'does Rossi's Cold Fusion invention work? and your answer is "how can it work, he's a criminal" that does not work for me at all.

Now if you say no it doesn't work because the calorimity is flawed, then I will listen but I will need independent verifiable evidence to back what you say up. And this is no less of a test that the courts will expect.

Best regards
Frank

Quote from Mary Yugo

Nothing is a consistent hallmark of cold fusion except for the absence of properly conducted, properly calibrated experiments which have been correctly replicated independently.

That is your imagination. The scientific literature shows that you are wrong. See, for example, Fig. 3 here:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/McKubreMCHcoldfusionb.pdf

Or see my video:

Quote from Mary Yugo

Jed, Are you saying that cold fusion doesn't follow the basic principles of conventional nuclear physics?

What statement of mine is this in reference to? I do not know what you mean.

Anyway, I do not know enough about the basic principle of conventional nuclear physics to judge this issue.

No one seems to know enough about that subject to judge anything. I have often had occasion to ask conventional nuclear physicists various questions about conventional nuclear physics -- not cold fusion. I have determined that if you ask any three world-class experts you will get five different answers.

Quote from joshua cude

It is characteristic of true believers to express absolute certainty about something they cannot be absolutely certain about.

It is less about belief, and more about the evidence. But I must say, it is a characteristic of pathological skeptics to dismiss evidence out of hand and yet have absolute certainty in the absence of evidence.

Wyttenbach wrote:

Quote

me:

You have forgotten the Sun, which is doing some LENR like fusion to heat most factories.

I did not forget, but I meant no one has claimed to have heated factories with man made hot fusion products. But you knew that.

IH Fanboy wrote:

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To the contrary, cold fusion lost its acclaim when certain hot fusion scientists from MIT altered experimental evidence,

Again, they were only one, and not the most effective groups of skeptics. The turning point, according to some, was the slam dunk duo of Lewis and Koonin, neither of whom were hot fusion beneficiaries.

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and then carefully constructed a reputation trap in concert with scientists from Caltech, so that anyone claiming positive results (and there were hundreds) or even being associated with cold fusion became scientific pariahs.

Totally implausible. The vast majority of scientists would benefit from cold fusion as humans and from the increased availability of funding when the tokamaks were shut down. The initial reaction in 1989 showed where the sentiments of most scientists lay -- strongly in favor of cold fusion. A tiny group of hot fusion researchers could not change that sentiment in all of mainstream science for their own benefit and to the detriment of science in general. If that were possible, oil researchers would have shut down fission, and fission and oil would have shut down wind and solar, and tubes transistors, x-ray researchers MRI, and so on...

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This, in a stomach churning bid to save their flow of hot fusion funding.

Again, hot fusion funding *costs* the DOE money. Greed would dictate that they would favor cold fusion to save that money.

IH Fanboy wrote:

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But I must say, it is a characteristic of pathological skeptics to dismiss evidence out of hand and yet have absolute certainty in the absence of evidence.

I have not expressed absolute certainty. I have often said that with the right evidence, I would accept cold fusion as real in a heartbeat. And I have often described the kind of evidence that would do it.

I'm just that open minded.

It is the believers who have closed their minds to the possibility that they might be wrong.

Quote from joshua cude

IH Fanboy wrote:

To the contrary, cold fusion lost its acclaim when certain hot fusion scientists from MIT altered experimental evidence,

Joshua Cude wrote:
Again, they were only one, and not the most effective groups of
skeptics. The turning point, according to some, was the slam dunk duo of
Lewis and Koonin, neither of whom were hot fusion beneficiaries.

Display More

Lewis and Koonin hailed from Caltech, with a team whose claim to fame was a sloppy replication attempt. Link.

Quote from joshua cude

IH Fanboy wrote:
and then carefully constructed a reputation trap in concert with
scientists from Caltech, so that anyone claiming positive results (and
there were hundreds) or even being associated with cold fusion became
scientific pariahs.

Joshua Cude wrote:
Totally implausible.

Display More

Are you absolutely certain about that? No reputation trap at all?

Quote from joshua cude

The vast majority of scientists would benefit from
cold fusion as humans and from the increased availability of funding
when the tokamaks were shut down.

Agreed. But those working on the tokamaks would be decimated financially.

Quote from joshua cude

A tiny group of hot fusion researchers could not change that
sentiment in all of mainstream science for their own benefit and to the
detriment of science in general.

Nearly all hot fusion scientists had a visceral negative reaction, and did have considerable influence on the political decision makers. A vocal minority can wield significant influence.

Quote from joshua cude

If that were possible, oil researchers
would have shut down fission, and fission and oil would have shut down
wind and solar, and tubes transistors, x-ray researchers MRI, and so
on...

Oil was never threatened by fission as oil is primarily used for transportation, while fission is primary used for fixed power distribution. Fission is not threatened by solar, even with government subsidies for solar. Oil is not threatened by solar, for similar reasons (different primary purposes). Tubes were threatened by transistors, but there were no "tubes lobbies" in those days, and much less secrecy surrounding how to build effective and reliable transistors, so the information spread rapidly. X-rays and MRIs fill different niches.

On the other hand, LENR+ threatens all energy interests.

Quote from joshua cude

IH Fanboy wrote:
This, in a stomach churning bid to save their flow of hot fusion funding.

Joshua Cude wrote:
Again, hot fusion funding *costs* the DOE money. Greed would dictate that they would favor cold fusion to save that money.

The reference to greed was not aimed at the DOE. But rather, the reference to greed was to those receiving millions in funding per year (hundreds of millions over the years) for their hot fusion research. Soon after the announcement, congress was seriously considering diverting significant portions of this funding to cold fusion research efforts. This is what caused great consternation in the hot fusion scientific circles, and the reason for their vociferous opposition. It might not be plain to you, but it is to me.

Quote from joshua cude

Totally implausible. The vast majority of scientists would benefit from cold fusion as humans and from the increased availability of funding when the tokamaks were shut down.

The vast majority of computer scientists, programmers, and computer users benefited from the introduction of microcomputers and personal computers in the 1980s. It allowed an enormous expansion of the field, increased profit and opportunities. Yet despite that, every major minicomputer manufacturer and most of the mainframe computer companies, such as DEC, Data General and NEC, either opposed the introduction of microcomputers or ignored them. That is why they all went out of business. IBM nearly went out of business.

If that were the only example in history, you might have a point. However, if you read the history of commerce, science, military science and war, banking, transportation, or any other human endeavor, you will find that people in the leading institutions who dominate a field often oppose progress. They often oppose things which would benefit themselves. This is such a common occurrence it is more the rule than the exception.

Quote from Mary Yugo

Nothing is a consistent hallmark of cold fusion except for the absence of properly conducted, properly calibrated experiments which have been correctly replicated independently and published in main line peer reviewed journals.

Quote from joshua cude

I'm just that open minded.

It is the believers who have closed their minds to the possibility that they might be wrong.

Why are the dogs again barking in the dim night? Do they follow the moon? They should be happy to get fresh meat!! Two new faces to scratch on...

Or is it this??

Cranbury, NJ (July 11, 2016) — Brilliant Light Power, Inc. (BrLP) announced today...Millions of watt's... for up to 30 minutes...

Certified by:

One of the validators, Bucknell Professor Dr. Peter Mark Jansson PE remarked...
an other Dr. K.V. Ramanujachary, Rowan University Meritorious Professor of Chemistry and Material Science... said ..

too big meat.. for tiny..?

Quote from I

However, if you read the history of commerce, science . . . or any other human endeavor, you will find that people in the leading institutions who dominate a field often oppose progress. They often oppose things which would benefit themselves. This is such a common occurrence it is more the rule than the exception.

If you wonder why that is, I suggest you read Machiavelli, one of the great observers of human nature:

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It must be considered that there is nothing more difficult to carry out nor more doubtful of success nor more dangerous to handle than to initiate a new order of things; for the reformer has enemies in all those who profit by the old order, and only lukewarm defenders in all those who would profit by the new order; this lukewarmness arising partly from the incredulity of mankind who does not truly believe in anything new until they actually have experience of it.

See also Francis Bacon, "Novum Organum," and Charles Townes, "How the Laser Happened" and Benjamin Franklin's letters describing people's reactions to his discoveries and inventions. There are countless other good sources but those are particularly vivid.

Quote from Mary Yugo

More like meat that's been through the digestive tract already.

I hope You don't live in the states or plan to travel a little bit, as your "meat" is still living there...

Of course You have a much higher eduction than M. Jansson Ph.D., University of Cambridge, 2003...

or: Dr. Randy Booker, physics professor and former Physics Department Chairman at University of North Carolina-Ashville ...

Or is it as Dr. Freud said: It's just your private game of arousal...

Mary

Quote from Mary Yugo

Meanwhile for Rossiphiles, he's still writing to himself. Does an honest person do this? Does an English-speaker structure sentences like this? Of course not, but Rossi does. What a dummy!

I have to admit, I do see this tendency in some on this forum, there's a couple of contributors I particularly feel sorry for and engage in conversation with them as much as I can, I hope it makes them feel better as no one else listens to a damn thing they are saying.

Best regards
Frank