I was wrong about Rossi, but what I fear most is that I might be partly right

Jed, thank you for answering my question about when your opinion on Rossi changed. It gave consistent view on how it all went down. I have few observations on your points.

I agree on how HVAC should operate. What bothers me with this is that it would make Penon complete lap dog of Rossi. He has a degree and is qualified HVAC (afaik), so he cannot be 'that stupid'? We know Rossis mentality, but giving up on all Rossis demands on test arrangements, would mean that he knowingly committed to operate against HVAC standards. I'm not asking you specifically to explain this, but it would just imply Penon getting so much money or futures from Rossi that it is worth ruining his professional reputation for ever.

You say that you received sample of the data from the ERV and some additional confirmation from parties outside of IH. I see bit weak bridge here. You may be better informed than what allowed to publish here, but I think it would not do any harm at least doing cautious homework questioning how much weight you can put on these sources when considering all these (as I wrote before). Remember also 100.1C speculation being just as cautious constant to respect Rossis demand to exclude extra heat stored to steam temperature beyond 100C' in earlier threads.

Of course if all what Dewey or IH has said, would mean E-Cat does not work, same way as if everything what Rossi says would mean E-Cat have average COP beyond 50. That fact alone proves neither party cannot be trusted 100%

Quote from Alan Smith

They need more attention than I have been able to give them today, I suspect.

Alan, if you have any questions about his work or theory, I'll be happy to correspond with you via the e-mail address in my paper.

Quote from JedRothwell

Looking at only the data, you cannot judge whether they are incompetent or frauds. However, based on the fact that they hid the fake customer site from the I.H. experts, I think they are frauds.

Do you have evidence that the customer is actually fake? I think you are right in identifying this as a core issue. I'm just curious what evidence you have beyond the "didn't give access" clue?

Quote from JedRothwell

Penon does appear to be Rossi's lap dog. I have not met him but based on his previous report and this data, I think he is stupid. He is not qualified to do HVAC measurements. The ERV data and configuration show that he and Rossi are either unqualified, or they were trying to foist a crude fraud onto I.H. to collect $89 million.

Looking at only the data, you cannot judge whether they are incompetent or frauds. However, based on the fact that they hid the fake customer site from the I.H. experts, I think they are frauds.

If all this is fact, then IH is outrageously stupid and incompetent. The buck stops at the feet of IH for the results of all this stupidity and in a just world IH must reap the whirlwind of this stupidity.

Quote from Mary Yugo

It was ROSSI's LAWYER! What about that don't you get?

The question was directed to Jed not you. But, since you chimed in, I'll address your observation. Protecting the identity of clients is bread and butter for lawyers. Rossi claims that the "customer" did not want to be exposed. Given the controversial nature of LENR, this position is plausible. So, what evidence do you have that there is no parent company behind the "shell" company?

Quote from andrea.s

There have been leaks about that, and again a model similar to Ascoli65's hot core model will explain the continued evaporatIon after removal of the electrical input.
You may want to take a look here:
gsvit.wordpress.com/2016/06/20…sustained-system-or-cop1/

No, the model presented by GSVIT is not at all similar to mine.

My model is a numerical model, based on the simplest conceivable way of operation of the fat-cat and congruent with the constructive and measured data reported by Lewan.

The GSVIT model is a generous but totally wrong attempt to explain the behavior of the fat-cat units by means of analytical considerations, based on mostly fantasy data and supposing the alleged presence of complicate and unsuitable control systems, and absurd assumptions, the like as: "the water at the bottom of the generator chamber remains at a temperature not much higher than the input one."

Sorry to say that, I tried to avoid it, but from my point of view, this study is an unnecessary contribution to increase the already very high level of confusion about understanding the functioning of the fat-cat.

Quote from Ascoli65

The GSVIT model is a generous but totally wrong attempt

Now this is going to piss off my friends quite a bit. It is a semi-quantitative analysis admittedly, and it doesn't address the October 6th 2011 test, but other anecdotical accounts of previous experiments (if I got it right). To say it is completely wrong is a bit surprising, but I will leave the dispute to the authors, if they read here and wish to start an ecatfight.

Jed:

Quote

Yes. Various Google searches and checks of the Florida government records make this seem likely. I have not dug deeply, but others who have told me this. For example, there does not appear to be any record of inspection or certification of large industrial equipment. Here is a good place to start a search for Florida corporations:

I don't beleive that this "inspection or certification" was required by the contract or the licence agreement.

If it is illegal, then IH is responsible since it is their reactor.

Quote from Mary Yugo

How do we know that? Whoever advised Darden to buy into Rossi without checking with critics and skeptics and testing one original ecat properly was an idiot. A complete moron. Maybe the cut of advisers has improved recently. Vaughn may have been in charge and to read his profile, his main interests are religion and philanthropy, not science and technology. Anyway, maybe you know who the advisors are. We don't. If they are the usual LENR specialist, sorry but I wouldn't trust them as far as I can throw an elephant.

Argon wrote:

Who knows? I have the same exact issue with Levi. Is he dishonest, really that stupid, or some unholy combination of both? He also should have known better and should know better by now. Why is he silent on the issue? Why are the Swedish professors silent on the issue? They are all only getting themselves in deeper and deeper as time goes on.

IH Fanboy:

It was ROSSI's LAWYER! What about that don't you get? Has Rossi EVER had a REAL customer for an ecat related product other than IH? In more than six flippin' years of outrageous lying claims! If Rossi has customers, please name one and how do you know and preferably let us know how to get a hold of them for results. Let's do it this way: do you have any evidence that anyone actually drew a megawatt of power from Rossi's year long charade and actually used it to manufacture something?

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It blows my mind that those on Planet Rossi cannot comprehend how insanely ridiculous it is that the fake customer is Rossi's own lawyer!!! How on earth can intelligent people gloss over this obvious red flag and epitome of conflict of interest. Even a 9yr old child would point out the obvious shenanigans of such a setup. Amazing...

Quote from JedRothwell

I agree it was a poor decision in retrospect, I cannot be sure it was idiotic.

If fraud was involved, it is not always easy to detect. After all, criminals are clever and they deliberately hide their tracks. I agree with Jed that there is no evidence that IH were idiotic. It might be they accepted initial test(s) beacause they were unable to prove fraud at that time. After all, we like to presume innocence and give anyone the benefit of the doubt. But probably suspicions were raised and as Dewey says, IH discovered the flow meter was tampered with. Isn't it strange this is similar to the accusation that Gamberale made of DGT. And others (confidential insider information here) made a similar accusation of Rossi years ago.

The real problem is that the scientific community, desperate for confirmation that LENR was real, did not speak out against inadequate verification. Rossi bought the support of Focardi (who was dying of cancer and needed cash for medical expenses). I recall Collis, at the ISCMNS AGM at ICCF16 (2011) in illustrated Rossi's reckless disregard for truth but he was shamefully criticized for his alleged naivety. For most people Rossi offered hope. They were willing to forgive outright lies so long as LENR prosperred. (Read they hoped for fresh research funds). Even the NASA guys told me, after Rossi's failed demonstration to them in Bologna, "... you must admit that Rossi has brought attention to the field". People seem to think that greed justifies dishonesty - so long as it is within the letter of the law. Well, the letter of the law will now be tested in Court. The Court wil not examine every scientific aspect, but hopefully enough at least to determine where some of the truth lies.

It looks like a major hope for CMNS is continued investment by IH. Rossi, by his legal action is risking the destruction of that (and all) funding and indeed the destruction of the reputation that honest researchers still enjoy. I would strongly advise all Rossi supporeters to persuade their hero to submit his technology to completely independent validation. And please do not tell me that there Rossi's IP must be kept secret. It is an obligation I think, under US patent law, to propose the best possible implementation of any invention. So if Rossi has invented anything (something I seriously doubt) he is obliged to publish it in his patents. Consequently objections that IH somehow divulged Rossi's secrets lack any substance.

Quote from axil

Jed:

I don't beleive that this "inspection or certification" was required by the contract or the licence agreement.

If it is illegal, then IH is responsible since it is their reactor.

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What are you talking about? The inspection and/or certification would be with a government agency...what on earth does that part have to do with the contract or license agreement? Are you just throwing out speculative misinformation now for fun?

Quote from JedRothwell

This has nothing to do with the contract or license agreement between Rossi and I.H. It is a legal requirement for operating equipment in Florida. If Rossi's gadget actually produced 1 MW, both he his pretend company were in violation of the law. However, I am sure it did not produce more than 20 kW, so there is no problem.

Then IH should face the consiqences of the violation, IT WAS THEIR TEST AND THEIR REACTOR.

A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

Topic A is under discussion.
Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
Topic A is abandoned.