I was wrong about Rossi, but what I fear most is that I might be partly right

    Looking like an outright panic frenzy hissy fit on Planet of the Rossis. The TTK playbook calls for truth serum which means more lies, misinterpretation, fabrication and slander from a position of confidence that one is telling the truth. (item #4 in the new Rossi Effect outline).

    Quote from "Pigeon Dewey"

    Looking like an outright panic frenzy hissy fit on Planet of the Rossis


    This picture of yours that you keep sharing so freely, really seems to be tattood on the inside of your eyeball ... Must be a chemical thing ...


    Btw, unless you already know, you're defecating on the table again my little pigeon ... :D

    Quote from "Abd"

    We have no information that IH has "solicited $250 million" for anything, much less "for the E-Cat."


    Are you playing deliberately stupid Abd?


    Of course Woodford invested at least $50M in E-Cat. They visited the plant several times during the test and accessed the ERV quarterly reports and where cheered on by (songbird) Darden when he pocketed the cash ... This is a fact.

    Quote

    You oversimplify and miss the point when you try to judge people by one character trait. You deal in stereotypes -- a person is all good, or all bad, with no shades of gray, and no mix of qualities. I think this blinds you to the reality of what many people are like.


    Another straw man argument! I didn't judge Rossi by one character trait. Newton, Einstein, etc. were geniuses with a plethora of spectacular achievements AND character flaws. Rossi is a jackass with character flaws. The only thing he ever accomplished is the-f-word-alan-smith-censors-from-this-forum-if-i-use it. Rossi gave Italy the Petroldragon disaster. Rossi took millions (and caused more millions to be spent) from DOD for thermoelectric devices which were a hoax. Rossi NEVER produced ANY successful product WHATEVER. Doubt this? Name one which is on the shelves today. By his age, ask yourself what Newton, Einstein, Jobs, Musk and the others had accomplished and had on the shelves! Yikes! How can you even speak of them in the same breath with Rossi? Same with Levi.


    The developmental history of the ecat makes no sense whatsoever if it could do even a small part of what is claimed. It should be in the process of development my innumerable industries and research labs by now under license and under patents, and Rossi should be a billionaire. It's been going on six years! IH's refusal to pay the next contract money makes no sense if the ecat was a powerful (megawatt) and efficient (COP>50) device which could revolutionize the world's production of energy! NONE of this makes sense except that Rossi bamboozled and flummoxed Darden. And Rossi has no redeeming aspects at all. Yes, he can be charming. Most con men are. It's how they achieve their cons. There is no mix of qualities in Rossi. He's just a ... you know.


    Anyway, I never said I judge Rossi by one character trait. If you want to argue against my thesis about Rossi, please be sure you understand it first.


    PS: a COP of 50 makes no sense at all in itself. With that high an output/input power ratio, the "plant" should be and would be "self sustaining". How much trouble would it be to route 1/50 (2%) of the output power back to the input via a control system? Rossi had more than five years to develop that along with his non-existent robotic factories, his inexpensive generation of isotopes claims, the self-destruct and telemetry features of ecats, and his impossible QuarkX fabrication. Heat is heat. It makes no difference to any physical or chemical process if it's routed back from a thermal output or generated by electrical input. Any ecat with a COP of 50 should be self sustaining (COP=infinity) and would be if it were real.


    Quote

    Of course Woodford invested at least $50M in E-Cat. They visited the plant several times during the test and accessed the ERV quarterly reports and where cheered on by (songbird) Darden when he pocketed the cash ... This is a fact.


    Clearly, Woodford had no clue how one vetts claims to energy production from nuclear fusion. They relied upon a completely inane and unnecessary one year "test" by a completely unknown friend of Rossi's (Penon) who had already done one widely criticized and clearly inadequate test. And they failed to commission much simpler tests of simple older ecats which, if done by real independent experts, would have revealed the truth about the ecat within two weeks. Woodford refused to answer questions from shareholders about this investment in their blog. They would not say how they had vetted it. No wonder. They screwed their shareholders big time. Well, with Brexit, they now probably have much worse problems. I suspect they were caught flatfooted, fat, dumb, and happy.

    Quote from Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

    Argon wrote:
    No matter what follows in this saga, and in case we get rel verifiable LENR results from some research, i hope you continue to follow and report them for the good of us rest.

    There were real and verifiable, repeatable and confirmed results from cold fusion by 1991. See my Current Science paper.


    The Rossi Affair did raise attention to LENR, but possibly to a blind alley. Or not. So far, no cigar. What I know is that the Rossi situation was suppressing general research funding and activity. Why bother with watts when Rossi is reporting kilowatts. By risking $11.5 million (and more, all that testing was expensive), it looks like IH has blown that problem out of the water. They did it brilliantly: they took Rossi seriously.


    Abd, I agree in shorter term. I was thinking little bit longer term. Millions comes millions goes, but when race intensifies, more bets are put on table.

    On Planet Earth, there is a difference between $50 million and $250 million. As well, there is a difference between what someone who is not deliberately stupid thinks is the purpose for an action and the actual purpose and use. Whatever IH raised from Woodford was not "for the E-Cat." No more significant money went into the E-Cat by that time.


    Sifferkoll keeps asserting his imaginations as "fact." This is likely fact: Woodford visited the 1 MW plant. I do not know if they saw the quarterly reports, but they might have. However, on what basis would one think that Woodford wanted their money to go "for the E-Cat"? As I would read the situation, anyone seriously interested in investing in commercial LENR would want to know what was happening with Rossi. I'm quite sure that IH told them. They had Rossi covered, essentially. If Rossi was a fraud, that would come out. If his devices were real, they had a license. IH eliminated the threat to LENR research, hedging it both ways.


    And that is still the case. Rossi's declaration of license revocation is totally bogus, no court would support that. His lawsuit is a farce. If the suit survives the Motion to Dismiss, it will only be because he alleged matters that he cannot prove, so he will simply be wasting more money on legal fees to no effect other than bringing out how crazy he has been.


    Rossi now has one path to survival: show IH how to make reactors that work. If he cannot do that, he is screwed, blued, and tattooed. This is the bed he made, and IH allowed him to make it.


    If IH misled Woodford, they could be in very big trouble, but these are professionals. They are very unlikely to make mistakes like that.


    On Planet Rossi, anyone who points out disliked fact -- or alternate plausible interpretation -- is "stupid" or "lying," part of the IH "attack on Rossi."

    Quote from Mary Yugo

    Clearly, Woodford had no clue how one vetts claims to energy production from nuclear fusion. They relied upon a completely inane and unnecessary one year "test" by a completely unknown friend of Rossi's (Penon) who had already done one widely criticized and clearly inadequate test. And they failed to commission much simpler tests of simple older ecats which, if done by real independent experts, would have revealed the truth about the ecat within two weeks. Woodford refused to answer questions from shareholders about this investment in their blog. They would not say how they had vetted it. No wonder. They screwed their shareholders big time. Well, with Brexit, they now probably have much worse problems. I suspect they were caught flatfooted, fat, dumb, and happy.

    Mary, you are making assumptions about Woodford that are based entirely on Rossi's story about Woodford. Their money did not go into "Rossi." It has gone or is going into other LENR research, which is confidential, and they are under NDA on that, I'm sure.


    They did not need to vet the e-Cat. IH had already done all that for them. Basically, either the e-Cat flat doesn't work, or Rossi refused to disclose how it works, but then IH has a license. This is covered both ways. And then a bunch of basic idiots stand around and judge what these fund managers do, having no knowledge. LENR is a risky business, period. My guess is that it will take better than a billion dollars to commercialize it. But maybe someone has a leg up. Or not.

    Quote from "FUD by Abd"

    "for the E-Cat"


    Ok. I see what you aiming at. One point for you ... The $50M was of course for IH, not for the E-Cat... Right?


    But, that only make it worse doesn't it? Woodford buying ~5% of IH at a $1bn valuation for their other investments after visiting the plant showing industrial scale COP~50 and seeing Darden dancing in his underwear singing "stellar stellar"... (well in that case maybe)


    But as you say, I agree that probably Woodford did not get the IH lies in writing, just as Rossi did not get the Cherokee thing in writing, byt only in smooth used car sale talk by Darden.


    Oh, and maybe it is not "stupid" you are playing, but you certainly are playing ...

    Quote from Dewey Weaver

    Ultrasure - how are you so sure? Where did you get your data from? Was if from the head of PR/lies and Slander dept or direct from the Daily Planet.


    This is another exercise in logic. What else can it be? What did the new money investors invest in? They invested in the IP of IH. That IP was defined by the licence agreement. More deeply, the performance of the IP was defined by the licence agreement between IH and Rossi. What proved that the IP can perform? What in the licence agreement defined how much the Rossi reactor can do? What attested what the Rossi reactor did in terms of power production, reliability, availability, efficiency, and ownership; it was the licence agreement affirmed and made real by the year long test of the E-Cat. What would the new money investors be required to inspect in there due diligence exercise? It was the test report of the ERV. The Results of the ERV are affirmed by the new investors that those results affirmed. ERGO: The ERV report is a testimonial to the validity of the E-Cat concept and execution. The only way that this report can be undercut is by asserting that the results were verified by tampered measurements and not by the content of the report itself. THis is what IH is claiming.


    Any spin that undercuts the ERV report is unbelievable. Only spin that explains that the ERV report was mismeasured is possible. IH must therefore show how the measurements of the ERV were invalidated; how those meters were fraudulently maladjusted. The focus of truth must be centered on the validation of the test methods and the instruments that the test used to make the measurements during the test.

    Quote from Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

    [quote='ultrasure','https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/3393-I-was-wrong-about-Rossi-but-what-I-fear-most-is-that-I-might-be-partly-right/?postID=26624#post26624']
    And how they could say it? If they choose to do so, they might say something like "We do not accept the ERV report." And what they did or said earlier is of little relevance. What if, after the ending of the test period, they discovered evidence that the test was fraudulently manipulated? Say, by using a flow meter giving values off by a factor of ten? Is the claim here that they would be estopped from claiming the uselessness of the test because of failure to object earlier? Only on Planet Rossi!


    Even if the flow meter was off by a factor of 10, the COP that was measured in light of the corrected flow would still meet the performance requirements defined by the licence agreement as follows: COP 50/10 = 5. A COP of 5 still meets the Performance spec defined in the licence agreement. The flow meter must be off by a factor of 13. Even spin must meet the constraints of logic.

    Quote from axil

    This is another exercise in logic. What else can it be? What did the new money investors invest in?


    As noted by others, I.H. is investing in a broad range of cold fusion research. The details are secret, but I believe they are supporting more research than anyone has since the early 1990s.


    Assume for the sake of argument that Rossi really does have kilowatt scale reactors, or -- at least -- he had them in the past, and he might make them work again. Assume also that I.H. is also investing in more typical cold fusion experiments that produce only a fraction of a watt. That is a safe bet, because there aren't any other kilowatt experiments, except for Brillouin Energy. As far as I know, the other experiments in the literature are on a small scale, from about 100 mW up to about 100 W. People have concluded that Rossi's reactors are somehow more promising or closer to commercialization because they are large. I find this point of view absurd. Looking at the history of technology, I see no correlation between the scale of the initial discovery and the final, commercialized device. Small devices can lead to practical technology as quickly as big ones can. What matters in the case of cold fusion is not size but control and reproducibility.


    In short, a small experiment that produces only a fraction of a watt may have far more promise than a kilowatt scale, so if we assume I.H. is investing in typical laboratory scale cold fusion experiments, they are just as likely to hit a home run as they would be with Rossi.


    Scale Does Not Matter! Not at this stage of the research.

    Quote from axil

    Any spin that undercuts the ERV report is unbelievable.


    Why do you say that? Do you have enormous respect for Penon? He does not strike me as the sharpest knife in the drawer, nor the brightest crayon in the box. He is, in short, several tacos short of a fiesta platter; three bits short of a byte.


    Quote from axil

    Only spin that explains that the ERV report was mismeasured is possible. IH must therefore show how the measurements of the ERV were invalidated; how those meters were fraudulently maladjusted.


    There is no need to show fraud. You need only show that the instruments were unsuitable and the measurements flawed. That is dead easy to do in this case. Indeed, I doubt that Rossi will be able to find an expert witness licensed HVAC engineer who would testify otherwise.


    The problems might be caused deliberately and fraudulently, the way they were at Defkalion. Or they might simply be caused by stupidity. I myself have made large errors in calorimetry, both small scale and large scale. This was not deliberate; I made stupid mistakes. Fortunately, I found them and corrected them. The point is, stupid mistakes are common and cannot be ruled out.


    I think Defkalion's problem was deliberate, based on what Gambarale wrote. Especially this part: "During the setup of the laboratory in Milan various improvements were introduced by the DE technicians and scientists concerning the calorimetry measurement. In particular a method independent of the flow rate measurement has been developed based on the heating of a large amount of water contained in a large tank and circulated through a pump in a closed circuit. This measure is independent of the measurement of the flow through the coil and it would remove any doubt about the heat measurement. DGT did not allow DE to use such measurement in any of the tests of their technology. As a further improvement we added a second flowmeter upstream of the water system in order to verify the behavior of the main flowmeter during the measurement of the excess power but also in this case the added flowmeter was readily removed by the DGT technicians forbidding us to make any verification."

    There are multiple factors that go into determining culpability in the mismeasurement associated with the test results. IH must prove that Rossi intentionally and actively caused the flow meter to be mismeasuring the flow by an order of magnitude. All the other factors such as the fluid temperature or steam quality that could have caused the overstatment of performance also must show Rossi's culpability. If IH is found to have produced these errors either intentionally of by incomitance the Rossi is off the hook. If IH inspected the test setup and equipment and signed off on the test setup and equipment then Rossi is also off the hook.


    If the test was unfair, it must be detected before or during the test not afterwards.

    IH never questioned the validity of the test as a factor in their reason for non payment. It was failure to substantiate the IP that was given as the reason not to pay. Only after the fact was the spin adjusted to question the validity of the test. Even if the test was flawed, IH must provide proof that they detected the flaws and told Rossi before the test was completed. The evidence of non performance must be compiled before the test is completed. The licence agreement does not require absolute proof of a pure test, it depends on the opinion of the ERV as a fair and unbiased judge and arbitrator of the test. If the ERV has made unintentional mistakes, he is only human and his judgement still holds. No judge is perfect, they just do the best that they can but even in the face of error, their judgement still holds. Many an innocent man has faced the absolute finality of the electric chair, and yet justice as a imperfect tool of humanity still rings true and must alway be served.

    Quote from axil

    IH never questioned the validity of the test as a factor in their reason for non payment


    Yes, they did. In the Motion to Dismiss, they referred to: "inoperable reactors, relying on flawed measurements, and using unsuitable measuring devices."


    I am sure you are aware of that. You need to stop repeating things which you know to be untrue. It is annoying, and it makes you look foolish.

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