I was wrong about Rossi, but what I fear most is that I might be partly right

Quote from JedRothwell

I do not know much about lawsuits, but I see nothing in this lawsuit alleging that Rossi is a fraud. If that comes up, I suppose it would be in a different civil lawsuit filed by I.H. against Rossi, or it would be a criminal case filed by Florida or Uncle Sam against Rossi.

They may counterclaim. They have not claimed fraud, so far, that's completely correct. A state or federal prosecution is a real possibility. Rossi has played a very dangerous game, for years, by what Lewan acknowledged from what you wrote on Vortex-l years ago (and it was that part that is why I pointed to that). He wanted people to think he was a fraud. I pointed out, in 2011, that we could not distinguish -- without independent testing or some breakthrough proof -- between Rossi as a real but eccentric inventor pretending to be a fraud to divert competition and a real fraud pretending to be an eccentric inventor pretending to be a fraud. However, all those incidents will create a weight if a fraud prosecution arises.

People may not realize it, but what actually can send you to prison is the appearance of having committed a crime, if it is successfully created.

Quote from "Jack"

that implies either complicity, the Rascal convinced him that IH had it in for them both,

I guess it could also mean that IH started to behave towards Penon as Dewey, Jed et al are doing here. Maybe trying to buy him; scrap the report, admit whatever for $$, threaten him etc. It doesn't take to much of a leap to imagine scenarios like that. Dewey even hinted that kind of stuff early on. (you know, the special reports Penon were supposed to have sent IH, etc. - ie. obvious hopeful fabrications...)

Quote from "Jed"

But if Rossi is convicted of fraud, that will be the worst public relations disaster in the history of this field.

Wow! What a fuddy piece of hypocrite you are Jed!!! Didn't it cross even your mind that YOU are working overtime with this agenda in mind ... and all based on blatant lies...

Quote from "Jed"

it was a big mistake letting Penon be the ERV for this test.

oh... is this a new one, or did you mention it before ... Let's have a look in the mirror again shall we;

Quote from "Repeating Jed"

stop making a fool of yourself

Jed,

1. The fact that there was no funding before Rossi -why? the effect is real; insert conspiracy theory here- doesn't mean that 11 million dollar is an amazing, one-time research funding. As previously noted, it's about 7 Tomahawk missiles, so it is really incredibly disingenuous to invoke this sum as an argument against Rossi. It's peanuts R&D money for such a phenomenon, and you full well know it.

2. Skeptopaths will be skeptopaths, lobbies will be lobbies, only the market will prove LENR real once a product is available

3. Blah blah blah groupthink, save our academia, omg we're so mad this garage tinkerer got the goods.

Quote from sifferkoll

"FUD by Abd" wrote:

Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax keeps repeating this piece of deception. The reality: ... ... ...

The issue has been covered before, with evidence, and if needed, I'll look up that conversation and cite it. Unfortunately, I did misinterpret some of the Agreement. I detailed all this before, and my error could have been found, and specifically pointed out, but it was not; instead we had comments on the order of "you are lying." Am not." "You are," etc, generating heat and no light.

Sifferkoll uses phony attributions that look like forum links, but that are not. So my post was here: I was wrong about Rossi, but what I fear most is that I might be partly right Sifferkoll is playing a game of "call my post deceptive I will call your post deceptive." Tit for tat. Truth? In that game, truth is irrelevant.

The Agreement: https://animpossibleinvention.…sdce-16-21199__0001-2.pdf I had referred to Schedule 3.2(b), which is page 24 of the pdf. This Schedule was confusingly titled "Procedures for Validation of E-Cat IP," but, in fact, it describes the process of delivery of IP after the Validation Test. This describes a "nuclear engineer" (The "Engineer") .. "not an Affiliate of Rossi, to be selected by Leonardo." Penon is a nuclear engineer, and why this should be a nuclear engineer is beyond me, because the technology is not what would be within the education of a nuclear engineer. However, this is an event taking place after Validation.

So how was the ERV (Expert Responsible for Validation) chosen?

This was the sequence as established in the Agreement:
1. Section 3.2(a). IH paid Rossi $1.5 million as payment in full for the 1 MW plant. That was not refundable "unless Validation was not achieved within the time period set forth in Section 4."
2. Section 4 then provides for a 120 day period after execution of the Agreement. It also provides that the ERV will be chosen by "mutual agreement" between Leonardo and the Company [IH].
3. Section 5 then describes the Guaranteed Performance Test, and there is where the ERV remains as originally chosen, unless otherwise agreed. Contrary to what has been implied, Rossi had the power to continue with the original ERV, no permission from IH was needed, and he did that, in spite of obvious reasons why this would not be a good idea.

None of this means that IH did not actually agree. They may have. But the Agreement was set up in this way: If IH did not agree with Rossi's proposal of an ERV, and Rossi would not accept an alternative, then Validation could not take place, and Rossi would simply return the $1.5 million, assuming he followed the Agreement, which covered the contingency of no Validation. The entire decision to enter an Agreement with Rossi required, at this point, ready agreement.

My basic point remains: the GPT, the one year 1 MW test, was supervised by an engineer chosen by Rossi, someone he knew, and not particularly expert on calorimetry, we think, and IH's alleged agreement with this could be only that they initially agreed to his selection, at a point when he could easily have backed out, and, I'd predict, would have backed out if someone truly independent had been required by IH. Rossi avoided such people like the plague.

At this point, to IH, what was important was the IP, to learn how to fabricate the devices. If they could have made devices that reliably worked, $89 million was chicken feed, they would have had no trouble raising it. They were willing to risk losing the $11.5 million if, say, the Validation test were faked or in error. The GPT was, as I read the agreement, to be conducted by or under the supervision of IH. The timing, however, was ridiculous, utterly unworkable. Hence the necessity for an amendment. The amendment provided that the test would begin when all parties agreed in writing. As far as we know, that never happened.

Much has been made of the missing signatures, but that is actually a lesser detail: the major issue is the missing agreement for the beginning of the test. Rossi, my opinion, could rely on estoppel to move around the missing signature problem (and IH would not have known, necessarily, that he had no fully executed copy), but the missing agreement to start the test means that, if we consider the second amendment valid, an agreed-upon test has not begun. Estoppel here is also possible, but becomes more difficult.

Meanwhile, Rossi is, of course, claiming that he has working devices. He had the rest of the planet to market them in, and supposedly was ready by 2013. What happened? There is no way that IH could have stopped this.

At this point the preponderance of the evidence is that the only major test long-term in years of his work was one where he lived in the thing for a year, constantly adjusting it and working on it, and with many reasons to suspect problems, including the inability of IH experts to visit the "customer area," including the identity of the customer and what that implies, and many other issues.

However, the core issue, cutting to the heart of the contract, is failure to deliver workable IP and training, as required in the Agreement. If he has IP to deliver, this could still be done and he could still be paid $89 million. But he'd have to deliver on his promise. (And, yes, a fully independent test could be arranged, but were I Industrial Heat, I would require that the new test be of devices made independently according to clear and written instructions -- with no touch by Rossi and full supervision to insure that. And these devices could then be independently tested, many of them.)

No more empty promises, pie in the sky and a 1 MW plant next year. This could all be done in a few months by agreeing on device tests instead of a 1 MW monster. If he has real IP. In fact, isn't there a pile of E-Cats sitting in that container? (So a two-rponged approach could be to individually test those, independently, and then test some freshly made by IH or an independent contractor.)

Quote from IH Fanboy

JedRothwell wrote:

With all due respect Jed (and I do respect what you have done for LENR over the years)--Hogwash. I've been a cold fusion aficionado since the fateful 1989 announcement. The sentiment was like a damp rag in 2011. Aside from the small bump in 2009 due to the 60 minutes episode, almost nobody (outside of the most dedicated LENR followers) were paying a single flip about anything in this space. And now? We have the MFMP. We have multiple universities in the U.S. with fully funded LENR research divisions. We have Russian and Chinese scientists conducting more experiments than ever before, and frequently publishing their results. We have the Indian government once again backing research efforts. We have organizations in Europe, Japan, and elsewhere pursuing LENR+ commercialization efforts. Rossi was the best thing that has ever happened to cold fusion, even if he is wrong.

I was aware of the 1989 work and even put $10,000 into palladium at a Credit Suisse metal account; however, I assumed along with nearly everone else that it had all been some mistake, artifact. It was only in 2009 when I came across an abusive blacklisting of lenr-canr.org on Wikipedia that I started to look into the field. So I'm very aware of what it looked like pre-Rossi.

I also know the sense of the research community. While there is no doubt that interest in LENR was raised, a lot of that then disappeared with delay, people falling away in disgust, etc. You refer to much work that could be exploring blind alleys created by Rossi. NiH was always suspected of being nuclear-active, there were scattered reports. Attempting to "replicate Rossi" has created a lot of confusion. As to "multiple universities with LENR research divisions, there is very little of it, and what I think of now is SKINR at U. Missouri, funded by Kimmel over the PdD work of Energetics Technologies, I think of Texas Tech, created by Robert Duncan, again, out of PdD work, mostly. The overall effect, as agreed privately by many researchers, was a suppression of funding for basic research, since it was all going to be made moot by Rossi's Amazing E-Cats, that nobody could replicate. Wait until they are on the market, then we can do some research. So, sorry, no, not hogwash. Possibly overstated, but definitely, Rossi did damage.

Quote from IH Fanboy

Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:
My basic point remains: the GPT, the one year 1 MW test, was supervised by an engineer chosen by Rossi

Your three bullet points do not lead to this conclusion without a logical leap.

The "bullet points" are three events in time sequence, not the full inferential sequence. I have stated the exact reasoning and noted explicitly that other might be possible (I.e., what I point to does not prove that IH did not enthusiastically agree, but .. what do you think? Considering the circumstances? Considering that Dewey has been clear that they were suspicious of Rossi from the start, as any sane businessman would be, given all that had come down.)

It appears from the drafting of the Agreement that Rossi already had Penon in mind. ("nuclear engineer.") Once the ERV was chosen -- notice "validation" in the name -- the GPT expert was automatic unless Rossi agreed otherwise. That's the Agreement as it was written.

Quote from JedRothwell

Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:

Which would not be me. Not by a long shot. When you talk about a field in which there are professional standards, accreditation, and licensing, an expert witness in court has to be licensed and credentialed. For example, in a medical trial you can only call medical doctors. In a trial about a building collapse, the expert witnesses have to be licensed architects, structural engineers, etc. You would not call journalists such as Lewan or some guy who mostly edits scientific papers (me).

In my opinion, it was a big mistake letting Penon be the ERV for this test. They should have hired some local licensed HVAC engineer. Rossi's shenanigans would not last 10 minutes with someone like that. The expert would say the instruments are not up to code and they have to be changed. He would get the correct answer, which is zero excess heat. Bingo, end of story.

Who is "they"? Jed, read the other posts by me in this thread. Penon was chosen by Rossi, it's obvious. The choice occurred at a point where had IH not agreed, Rossi would certainly have terminated the agreement, refunding them the $1.5 million. It appears to me that Penon was chosen for his lack of expertise in HVAC, and because he is a "nuclear engineer," which sounds really impressive, though completely irrelevant.

The Agreement is not at all what would be drafted by someone being careful. The requirement for the GPT is COP 6 at a steam temperature of 100 C. But, of course, the pump is rated at 4 bar. It is totally nuts. But that is what IH had to agree to, in order to find out what was necessary. If Rossi had delivered on the IP, teaching them how to make devices that would independent test at that kind of COP, no 1 year test would have been needed. $89 million? Where do we wire it?

The lawsuit is devastating to the idea that Rossi has real IP to deliver. It remains possible, but only through assuming he is essentially insane, and probably refused to deliver the real goods because he didn't trust them.

Quote from IH Fanboy

It could just as well have been IH. The agreement tilts IH and was probably written mostly by them.

Quote from IH Fanboy

Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:
It appears from the drafting of the Agreement that Rossi already had Penon in mind. ("nuclear engineer.")

It could just as well have been IH. The agreement tilts IH and was probably written mostly by them.

IH would not have chosen Penon, that's a practical certainty. This was a choice for the Validation test, and they could have flown in anyone in the world. The Agreement resembles what I'd expect Rossi to write, not a highly sophisticated investor, with full access to experts and legal advice. Did they manipulate it? Well, Rossi has mentioned that the final copy signed was prepared by IH. From what? Did Rossi keep drafts? The history of that Agreement is one thing that might come out in the trial. Who wrote what? -- and it can matter.

In the history, the way that Rossi tells it, -- and I think this could be true -- IH was the suitor, Rossi was not at all desperate. So why would he sign an agreement that was so full of holes, some of which don't favor him? To me, knowing how people think, it's obvious. He didn't suspect the problems because he wrote the damn thing. they then took it and changed Cherokee to Industrial Heat, and he signed it.

Nobody sane wanted a 1 MW test, but it had been Rossi's dream and promise since 2011.