JM Chemical Products is the Key Witness in the Rossi vs. Industrial Heat Case

This is beyond preposterous. Why would Rossi allow someone to use a top secret process to test his plant? It makes no sense whatever! Why would the recipient of the heat from the world's first operational fusion power plant not want their name revealed and all the favorable publicity it would bring? That alone is ridiculous. An anonymous customer and a top secret process used to test a revolutionary new power source which is being sold to industry, has been sold since 2011 and is in exponential demand.

http://www.e-catworld.com/2011…-of-sales/comment-page-1/

Oh yeah. That Rossifiction still has a market? Why?

Quote from AlainCo

just speculation, not crazy, not fact.

among witness I would like to see :
- Fabio Penon
- JM chemical executive (Rossi's attorney, LOL)
- certified HVAC expert
- workers on site , including Fabiani
- Woodford executives, and people having invested in IH and visite the site

anyway, maybe just few of them are enough to make the (tragic) truth emerge.

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As explained to me by an attorney, IH may add cross-complaint defendants in order to create stronger, ah, motivation, to testify, either in depositions or in trial. The number of wtiness subpoenas is limited, but any cross-defendant may be required to testify or be found responsible for damages. So this would cover Penon and Johnson, the President of Leonardo and of the Customer.

(How Planet Rossi allows that blatant conflict to pass while choking on IH and Cherokee having the same address is completely beyond me. The jury would look at "same address" and yawn. Same officers, okay, a bit of attention. But, then a company created just to support the GP test? By Rossi's attorney? Come on, you've got to be kidding! We wouldn't put this in the Movie Plot because it would be unbelievable as something open. Hidden, maybe, discovered by intense sleuthing, but right out where everyone can see?)

Fabiani is often mentioned by Rossi as an IH employee, which technically he was. But he came from Rossi. Not knowing the history enough, I have no idea if there would be any basis for a cross-complaint against Fabiani. My guess is, no. But he may be subpoenaed as a witness (by either side).

Woodford, no basis at all. So someone visited a site. Rossi makes a claim about investment, clearly referring to Woodford, but this is fluff. Woodford had zero obligation to Rossi, and IH is very unlikely to do anything that might irritate or offend Woodford. A deposition answering written questions in England is not impossible. There are countless details here, too much to predict without better information.

This is a game, attempting to predict what will happen. I know where the importance is, with LENR, and it no longer has anything to do with Rossi, unless something changes drastically. If someone believes in Rossi, they could invest in Hydro Fusion, perhaps, as Sifferkoll's friend has. Buying oil industry put contracts shows confidence that Rossi is going to blow the lid off, but ... wouldn't help Rossi.

@sifferkoll, how about putting some of your own money in, where it could make a difference?

Quote from frankwtu

AlainCo wrote:
anyway, maybe just few of them are enough to make the (tragic) truth emerge.

But you have made up your mind anyway (tragic truth) so what would be the point?

Entertainment, Frank. And your point? Why do you bother with all this? Alain began seriously following LENR a few years ago, and trusted the Rossi data. Given the lawsuit and what it revealed, so far, he has now come to realize how untrustworthy that all is. Most of us would love to see it all be revealed as a big mistake, a misunderstanding, an eccentric inventor, as described by Mats Lewan. And a real effect.

Someone who trusted Rossi for a few years is going to experience a let-down, which is exactly what Alain is showing. This has not become a certainty of the unreality of the effect.

This is reality opening up, and reality is always better than our imagination.

But when your favorite toy is gone, the world can look like a terrible place for a while. And then the sun comes out, life is sweet, and something else happens, and we move on.

LENR, the real science, is winning, and this whole affair is showing that.

It's a bit dramatic, though.

Quote from frankwtu

AlainCo

But you have made up your mind anyway (tragic truth) so what would be the point?

Best regards
Frank

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I started following the eCat saga in 2011. Initially I informed several friends that an Italian inventor had a revolutionary energy device. That he had sold several, (13 according to Rossi) and that he was in talks with Home Depot for distribution in 2012.

As each big announcement or milestone that Rossi painted, a big disappointment came. Either the stated "certification", which turned out to be nothing or plant sales, always secret and never confirmed or other tests, which were always very questionable.

After a time, my trust and perceptions changed. I WANTED the eCat story to be true, but no matter how bad I wanted it, common sense was compelling me to rethink what was going on. The same pattern again and again. If one states he is ready for mass production in 2012, in 2016 he certainly would have readily proved that the concept worked. But he has not.

So now, I do not tell my friends anymore. The ones I did tell occasionally ask me how the new energy device that will save the world is coming? I can only shake my head.

This story is like a religion. It is often very hard for people to change their religion. It is hard for Catholics to become protestant or protestant to become Catholic. Often they just fall away from the faith completely.
That is what I have seen following this story. Some are devout "Church of Rossi" while others are devout "eCat Atheist". But most simply walk away after a time, shaking their head in disappointment and frustration.

A few though, believe LENR at it's core is valid. So why do you ask "what is the point?". It is because if the field is to advance, it needs clarity. Any fraud or scams need to be revealed so real work can move forward. I am not posting this stating that Rossi is a fraud or scammer. I am posting this as one of the "believers" that has turned "doubters" over the years. This question about the eCat needs to be be cleared up. It has ran too long.

Not cleared up because Rossi could be a fraud and people could boast "I TOLD you so!", but cleared up on the minuscule possibility that Rossi MIGHT ACTUALLY have something. Other researchers seem to be far from power levels needed to be useful. If Rossi has something, we would like to see it proved, done so quickly and without the major circus that is always Rossi.

If he does not, if he is a fraud, then we would like to see the proper attention turned to the true scientist who are working o the solution. As Jed Rothwell has often said, it does not really matter what power level is 100% demonstrated. Once the effect is highly repeatable, research will flood in and the "COP" will be engineered. (Quote is much paraphrased)

So what is the point? To press for the truth! Most "doubters" do walk away and you never hear from them. If you look at the names on eCat World from 2011 versus today, I would guess that a big majority of the strong believers were not on the list in 2011. I.E. that many of the "believers" from 2011 have moved on. Would you not say that is "Tragic" as well?

What is tragic is that the whole question if the "Rossi Effect" is a scam or not is the same today as it was in 2011! It certainly does NOT NEED TO BE!

Quote from Guest

I would certainly expect Fabiani to be called at least as a witness given that he is explicitly mentioned in Rossi's lawsuit as being IH's representative during the test (a misrepresentation according to Dewey Weaver and others).

Quote from Alan Smith

Fabiani described himself as an IH employee several times before things went sour. So maybe Dewey forgot FF was on the payroll - at least at the start. I was not aware that others have denied his employment by IH. do you remember who?

I highly recommend people interested in this field -- and any field where controversy arises -- learn to read synthetically. The goal of synthetic reading is to find understandings of statements that harmonize them.

Dewey's statement was not linked. But Dewey could readily claim that Fabiani was not "IH"s representative." Rather, the way I understand the story was that Rossi wanted Fabiani there, and asked IH to hire him, which they did. So Fabiani was, then, IH"s employee, but not necessarily their "representative." Here is what Rossi claims in the Complaint:

Quote

67. During the Guaranteed Performance Test period, IH and/or IPH engaged and paid two of their representatives, Mr. Barry West and Mr. Fulvio Fabiani, to monitor, maintain, take part in, and report on the operation of the E-Cat Unit being tested.

68. Throughout the Guaranteed Performance testing period, the results of the test, including measurements and operational status, were routinely reported to DARDEN, VAUGHN, IH and IPH by ROSSI, the ERV and IH/IPH's agents Mr. Fabiani and Mr. West.

Rossi is implying something that is not necessarily true, that Fabiani was there to "report." Maybe. But it would be as Rossi's known friend, based on their prior relationship, I assume. However, if Fabiani helped Rossi cover up misbehavior, he could be in trouble. I have seen no information indicating that he did. IH may have such "information or belief." If they do, expect to see Fabiani added as a cross-complaint defendant.

Quote from Bob

This question about the eCat needs to be be cleared up. It has ran too long.

Thanks, Bob. My sense is that IH saw the situation in 2012 and came to that same conclusion. This was far too important to let it sit unresolved. They were starting to invest in LENR (apparently Rossi was not their first investment). They knew the situation, they knew the obvious problems with Rossi's claims. and they decided to find out, and they laid their own money on the line to do that. $11.5 million. A huge amount of money for LENR research, larger than anything seen for quite some time.

While they did not actually find out, for reasons that become understandable through study of the lawsuit and what is known, with more coming, they did find out that Rossi's claims could not be trusted, and, in addition, for their $11.5 million, they got a license, as a hedge covering the possibility that Rossi pulls an October surprise and actually puts working product on the market. They then become rich, with a small legal problem to deal with that they can easily handle. But they are now continuing what they started, investing in LENR< the science, the people who have been working for years without making outrageous claims, the people who patiently report a few watts even while Rossi is reporting kilowatts. The true heroes, who worked for decades against vituperative opposition, sometimes at major personal cost, developing real science, overcoming obstacles, publishing anyway. And as a result of all that work, we now know that LENR is real, whether or not the Rossi Effect is real, and this is breaking through and breaking out, and Industrial Heat appears to be heavily supporting this transformation, and not with words, but with cash. Real research takes money, and it requires patience. Read the Macy Interview with Darden. He lays it out.

Quote from Alan Smith

He who pays the piper calls the tune. And btw, Abd, maybe you should learn to write synthetically. If something in 'not necessarily true', it is also 'not necessarily a lie'.

Of course not.

I use the word "liar" very carefully. What are you talking about, Alan? Did I call something a lie in this sequence?

Quote from frankwtu

Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

So, if he wasn't there to report to IH (being formally employed by IH) why was he there?

Best regards
Frank

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Please read the following link :
http://www.e-catworld.com/2015…-e-cat-works-as-promised/

"When questioned further about when he thinks the E-Cat will hit the market, he said that he could not answer that question because he was not involved in production or marketing decisions, and said his (Fabiani) position was “Chief of R&D under Rossi orders.”" (Fabiani's name listed in parenthesis by me for clarification)

This was Nov. 2015, well during the test. So if this interview is accurate, Fabaini's own words as to why he was there was to conduct R&D under Rossi's orders. While he did not state anything about the test or reporting to IH, he did state he reported to Rossi.

One problem of these discussions are that one has to read almost every post to get a complete picture. And then to make that picture accurate, one has to REMEMBER all the posts that have been read. And THEN they need to link all the threads together much like a Spider Web, seeing what truth lies in the middle without prejudice. One cannot obtain a true picture if they only read, remember or give credence to posts that support their position. (Either believers or doubters) And they cannot pick certain sentences out to draw more conclusions than are there.

It is the same with religions! People pick certain scriptures that support their preconceived beliefs, more than reading the entire text. In many cases, the preconceived belief is MORE important than the truth! So they skip the verses that do not support their beliefs and thus are never able to see the truth.

Has this Rossi debate become the same? Is there anything that can convince Mary Yugo Rossi is not a fraud? Is there anything that will convince Sifferkol that Rossi is a fraud? Perhaps they both have said their view would change if X,Y,Z happened, but then I highly suspect that X,Y,Z could never be done to their expectations.

One observation I see regarding opposite beliefs is this : "When one resorts to constant personal belittlement of the opponent, truth has now become of no importance. It has simply become a personal vendetta." I urge everyone here to try to discuss facts and not agenda. We all want the same thing.... the simple truth.

Quote

Not cleared up because Rossi could be a fraud and people could boast "I TOLD you so!", but cleared up on the minuscule possibility that Rossi MIGHT ACTUALLY have something.

It should be cleared up so Rossi can be punished legally for all the money he took under false pretenses and all the lies he told. Unfortunately, there is no law which covers the time he wasted for so many people and all the damage he did to genuine LENR research.

If you had really followed the story and had understood how scientific research and method work, in particular double blind experiments, controlled experiments, and calibrations, you would realize that there is absolutely no chance that Rossi has or ever had anything. In order for him to have something, the most improbable set of circumstances would have to be postulated to account for the events which transpired since early 2011 when the first announcements became public. Oh sure, there is always a chance-- just as there is a chance that some day there will be a mutant pig which flies like a bird, a horse with huge gossamer wings, or an honest politician (just joking on that last one).