Flow meter used in 1-MW test

    Quote from Wyttenbach

    1: Provide us a proof that the flow-meter You mention was in fact used.


    Quote from Wyttenbach

    For the subtype -130 = type for hot water - the increment is 1 Tick for 100l = 10 ticks for 1m3!



    Anyways, the pulses are every 100 L (standard unit). If the pulses were used, recorded, whatever, does not seem to be the case, or at least there is no indication of this.
    If they only manually read the dial, they would have to go by the odometer-like numbers, in 1000 L increments.


    Edit: There are supposedly millions of data points. This suggests electronic data recording of some sort. Maybe we will see some of that one day.
    I hope it makes more sense that what we have been getting so far.

    Quote from IH Fanboy

    Did you not the follow the pronouncements from Dewey and Jed on temperature and flow rate data over the course of weeks?



    These are the only other numbers we have. Dewey's hit rate has been pretty good for general statements.
    Looking forward to meter photos with rust lines, serial numbers, and best of all the heat simulation with the goldfish bowl.
    And the government inspection photos with the Customer radiator.

    Quote from Paradigmnoia

    Quote from IH Fanboy: “Did you not the follow the pronouncements from Dewey and Jed on temperature and flow rate data over the course of weeks?”



    These are the only other numbers we have. Dewey's hit rate has been pretty good for general…


    If this goes to open trial there will certainly be much to look forward to!

    • Official Post

    Well, were I in the jury, and being your typical "shallow minded" person Abd likes to remind us all of being (except TTH...so far), I would have to say there is no case against Penon, or Rossi based on the flow meter "expert" testimony presented here. It all, both sides, just comes across as a confusing mumbo jumbo. Nothing concrete sticks out that simple minds can latch onto.


    Oh yeah, the anti-Rossi fervor, like Jed and others present readily comes across, but even after Murray's concerns are revealed, no smoking gun to prove their point. Not good. If no smoking gun, after raising expectations that there will be, there is a let down, and after being disappointed, we the jury of course find the innocent, skinny (maybe that is why he lost the weight? :) ) "little guy" looking foreigner from Italy (what it is with you....oh never mind) with the cute accent, innocent.


    Win for Rossi! Of course there are those other disturbing accusations to contend with, but keep in mind that "if the glove don't fit, you must acquit". In other words, if you cannot KISS (keep it simple stupid), you lose with the jury.

    Quote from IH Fanboy

    Yes, the whole daylight savings shtick is yet another canard (large stinking pile of them now).



    This demonstrates how a person can start out saying things that not quite right to help his friends and eventually descend step by step into a morass of illogical and unbelievable FUD. Some people call that losing your soul. So Sad.

    Quote from Wyttenbach

    Please can You stop this bullshit???


    1: Provide us a proof that the flow-meter You mention was in fact used.


    It is right there in Exhibit 5! That has to be the flow meter. If it were not, Rossi and Penon would have responded to I.H. telling them the real flow meter, and explaining the confusion. They would have been paid $89 million for doing that, so I am sure they would have.


    This was before the lawsuit, don't forget. There was still time for them to convince I.H. All they had to do was answer the questions in Exhibit 5 in a convincing way to end the misunderstandings.


    They did not respond at all. If I told you: you get $89 million for answering some questions and clearing up some confusion, would you respond? I think so! Why didn't they respond? Because everything in the letter is true, the problems are real, and they had no valid response. So they filed suit instead. I guess they are hoping to bamboozle a jury.

    Quote from Wyttenbach

    JED: The only relevant person is Penon the ERV!


    Nope. After they prove that it was fraud, there was no machine and no heat in the pretend customer site, the only role Penon will play will be in an orange suit in jail with the others. His fake report will never see the light of day. You cannot use a fake report to try to defraud people and then present that report as evidence.


    Quote from Wyttenbach

    Pressure "0" is pressure above atmospheric pressure and is completely correct.


    No, that is not what it said. It said 0.0 bar, meaning a vacuum. But that was a later version. The earlier versions of the data had the actual pressure, which was high enough to ensure that was water, not steam. That's why they erased the figures and stuffed in "0.0" instead. Oh so clever!

    Quote from JedRothwell

    No, that is not what it said. It said 0.0 bar, meaning a vacuum. But that was a later version. The earlier versions of the data had the actual pressure, which was high enough to ensure that was water, not steam. That's why they erased the figures and stuffed in "0.0" instead. Oh so clever!


    So, can we take your interpretation of these facts to be as good as gold? Just like the temperature data?

    Quote from Paradigmnoia

    exactly 32000 kg/d for the month of July. Every day, dead nuts on the rounded number. How does that make you feel about your hero Frank?


    (maybe that was supposed to be 36000...)


    There is confusion because, as Rossi explained to Lewan, he arbitrarily reduced the flow rate by 10%, down to 32,400 kg. I have no idea what justification he had for doing that, but he did. The interview says: "He also insisted that an arbitrary chosen 10 percent should be subtracted in the power calculation, with no other reason than to be conservative." (That's not actually conservative. It's just nutty.)


    So, anyway, the data tables show both numbers. I think most of his COP calculations use 32,400 kg.


    Quote from Paradigmnoia

    And don't be confused when you see 103.9C for every single steam temp measurement for March and April 2015


    I believe that part is right. Temperatures were mysteriously similar in places. You almost get a sense that someone got tired of adding data and just started pressing ctrl-V. But they wouldn't do that, would they? I mean, if someone was going to pay you $89 million for a project, would you stuff the report with fake data? Of course not.


    (Answer: If you were Rossi, you would!)

    Quote from IH Fanboy

    So, can we take your interpretation of these facts to be as good as gold? Just like the temperature data?


    Not my interpretation. This is straight from the horse's mouth: from Rossi himself. From his data, past and present.


    You can be sure that is true because this is what Exhibit 5 says (if you read between the lines a little). Rossi never answered that. He would have earned $89 million for answering it. You can be damn sure that if he had any reasonable, believable answers, he would have produced them rather than filing a lawsuit a few months later. He never answered, and Penon skedaddled back to Italy. Their actions speak louder than words. Their actions prove that every word of Exhibit 5 is true.


    If you could disprove that document and get paid $89 million for doing it, would you or would you not disprove it?

    Quote from JedRothwell

    You can be sure that is true because this is what Exhibit 5 says (if you read between the lines a little). Rossi never answered that. He would have earned $89 million for answering it. You can be damn sure that if he had any reasonable, believable answers, he would have produced them rather than filing a lawsuit a few months later. He never answered, and Penon skedaddled back to Italy. Their actions speak louder than words. Their actions prove that every word of Exhibit 5 is true.


    Exhibit 5 is literally the sketchiest exhibit of them all. Who wrote it? It sounds like Jones Day attorneys themselves. Rossi knew IH wasn't going to pay long before these questions were ever asked, and answering them would have likely made no difference. Penon may not have known prior to receiving these questions that he was a target of IH. But I'd be willing to bet a bottom dollar that after he received such questions, there was no doubt in his mind that IH had turned on him, and that providing answers outside of a legal proceeding was probably not in his best interests.

    Quote from IH Fanboy

    Exhibit 5 is literally the sketchiest exhibit of them all. Who wrote it?


    Murray.


    Quote from IH Fanboy

    Rossi knew IH wasn't going to pay long before these questions were ever asked, and answering them would have likely made no difference.


    They knew this by ESP? Clairvoyance? They knew that a company that had given them $11 million already, and that had bent over backwards to replicate and cooperate would suddenly and inexplicably not pay, even though the product -- if real -- is worth hundreds of billions of dollars?


    Only on Planet Rossi!


    Quote from IH Fanboy

    But I'd be willing to bet a bottom dollar that after he received such questions, there was no doubt in his mind that IH had turned on him, and that providing answers outside of a legal proceeding was probably not in his best interests.


    Those questions are perfectly reasonable. I and many other people immediately came up with most of them after examining Rossi's data. Not answering them was a violation of contract. Anyone could see that without good answers, no sane people would pay the $89 million. The choice was to answer them with viable, believable reasons to clear up the problems, or to get nothing. Since Rossi had no answers, he decided to sue instead. That was a mistake. Big mistake. He sued the wrong people this time.

    Quote from IH Fanboy

    Exhibit 5 is literally the sketchiest exhibit of them all. Who wrote it? It sounds like Jones Day attorneys themselves. Rossi knew IH wasn't going to pay long before these questions were ever asked, and answering them would have likely made no difference. Penon may not have known prior to receiving these questions that he was a target of IH. But I'd be willing to bet a bottom dollar that after he received such questions, there was no doubt in his mind that IH had turned on him, and that providing answers outside of a legal proceeding was probably not in his best interests.


    From the Answer:

    Quote

    78. Indeed, when Murray eventually gained access to the Plant in February 2016 and
    examined the Plant, the methodology being used to operate the Plant, and the methodology being
    used to measure those operations, he immediately recognized that those methodologies were
    fatally flawed. Some of the flaws that he was quickly able to identify are explained in Exhibit 5.


    Exhibit 5 appears to be a doc file. What happened with this is explained further on in the Answer:


    Quote

    88. In February 2016 at an in-person meeting with Penon, Murray identified a number of flaws in how Penon was conducting his measurements of the Plant. Some of those flaws were also presented in writing to Penon on March 25, 2016. See id. Despite have [sic] full knowledge of the flaws, Penon nevertheless issued his false final report on March 28, 2016, claiming that guaranteed performance was achieved – and that the COPs achieved by the Plant were literally many multiples greater than ever claimed by anyone else (other than Leonardo and Rossi) who had ever tested an E-Cat reactor. Not surprisingly, since the day he left Florida in February 2016, Penon has refused to discuss his measurements, his measurement plan and design, or his report with Counter-Plaintiffs (though he has requested that Counter-Plaintiffs pay him for his work).


    Contrary to what IHFB implies, these were not questions for Rossi to answer. They were for Penon. It appears to me that the March 25 presentation may have been a formalization of what was raised in person in February. And, yes, Jones Day may have been involved. Both Jones Day and Annesser (Rossi's attorney) were involved by February (see Exhibit 23). I agree that Rossi knew, so he filed the lawsuit the day before it actually became past due.


    How would Penon, however, know that he would become a target? I agree it is possible, but he was also a professional. His professional obligation would be to respond, back in February. I would think in writing.


    It appears -- I don't have definitive evidence on this -- that IH was not able to verify any operation of the E-cat units at all. They had the 1 MW plant in their possession. Running at a megawatt would be a nuisance, for all the reasons explained. But running a single E-Cat would not be a problem. And I strongly suspect they tried that -- wouldn't you? They supposedly had full instructions. They had Rossi to help them. If he was willing. But these were tests under their supervision, not Rossi's. And if they couldn't get those devices to work, what does that say about Penon, who just certified operation in the Validation Test, on the basis of which $10 million went from escrow to Rossi?


    Yes, if I were Penon, I'd be worried. But he was making a lot of money, openly, and may have been making more on the side. Fabiani, with weaker credentials, was making $10,500 per month, plus his apartment rent, at least when he was in North Carolina.


    The Answer and Exhibit 5 give a lot of information about the test data, generally confirming what Jed has been saying. As Jed points out, this aligns with what Rossi told Lewan. Obviously, Jed's report from sources he cannot reveal is weaker than verifiable evidence, but it is what it is: personal testimony based on personal experience and judgment. Jed doesn't lie. He can make errors in judgment, as can anyone. I remember him telling us that he had confidential information about the Rossi devices, that they really worked. He wasn't lying, I'm sure. Someone whom he considered reliable, who had inside information, told him that. Again, he actually had that information. No lies were involved, not by him, and not by his source.


    But Rossi lies, or, alternatively, is radically delusional. It runs all through the documentation, and especially when compared with Rossi's public statements.


    The flow meter issue has basically become almost moot. It is one problem among an enormous pile of them. What I will affirm is that flow meters can be abused to create misleadingly high flow indication, and there are many ways, in spite of Peter Gluck's insane insistence that this is preposterous. It's possible. Possibility does not prove that it happened, but there is a lot of misinformation being spread over this. Using a flow meter below the rated flow is hazardous, it is more exposed to the possibility of vibration from turbulence. I agree that being slightly below would *probably* not lead to this, but average figures were being considered. If the average flow was below the rating, there might be periods when it was much less. This all becomes a tangled mess, impossible to clearly resolve. And that is why it is so serious that improper equipment was used.


    If this were not a Guaranteed Performance Test on which an $89 million payment was hanging, IH could be relaxed and not really worry about it. We do not know when IH became aware that Rossi was claiming this was the GPT. It may have happened near the beginning. How they responded then would be crucial, and we don't know. Yet, gain, this is only one of many issues. Rossi has a steep hill to climb, I did not realize, until reading the Answer, just how steep.


    Rossi was accustomed to stonewalling when asked questions he didn't want to answer. What Penon will be discovering is that he may have two choices: Answer the questions in a court of law, or effectively become a fugitive. If there was fraud in the Validation test, that happened in Italy, so Italian courts would have jurisdiction (as they would over Rossi).


    I've mentioned this before in two different versions:
    1. Don't fuck with angel investors.
    2. Don't fuck with $2.5 billion corporations.


    I could add


    3. Don't fuck with the Mafia. Show some respect.


    Yeah, there can be exceptions, but personal profit isn't one of them.

    Quote from Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

    Contrary to what IHFB implies, these were not questions for Rossi to answer. They were for Penon.


    Of course they were for Penon! Isn't it interesting that the answer never outright states that Murray wrote this exhibit (because based on the legalese, it clearly wasn't him). But once again, the answer misdirects readers in some fashion: that Murray wrote it by his very hand!

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