Display More"providing rational and reasoned judgement rather than psychological warfare"
Lol, coming from the FUD and mind tricks camp
Those last few days there's been only noise coming from the usual enemies of mankind + their sock puppets. Where's the signal that shows that omg Rossi was a fraud all along, as you imply he is?
Pretty pathetic tbh fam
Where's the signal?
I suggest you do the historic Rossi photo water meter tour.
Maybe you could do that, but that never happened. The power production and total energy was the same every day to within a few percent. In fact, even when eyewitnesses saw that several of the modules were turned off for the day, the data showed the same 1 MW of power, and the same net energy. Apparently, the reactors left on magically increased their power to make up for the loss.
No comment!
In your post above you quote a letter from one of Rossi's minions (sorry, from "the customer") to IH kindly specifying how much power they used. (I'm not BTW sure how they would know this - it is a bit unusual for steam driven industrial processes to include energy meters).
It seems to have no relationship to the rest of your post. Care to explain this?
I should just point out the the "Vaughn" name there is the recipient, not the sender, of this letter.
In your post above you quote a letter from one of Rossi's minions
You say is clear and fair. ( (dark-) Planet? Universe?? - Rossi and JED say two different things ==> JED is joking.
But, the Exhibit 18 has legal status. That's what parties claim. JED's statement is just FUD or a joke. You can shoose.
Murray says it applies to the entire test. See Exhibit 5.
There is nothing about throttling in Exhibit 5. It appears Murry didn't even consider this as a possibility.
You misunderstand. There was no throttling because the net energy was the same every day. That does not prove there can be no throttling, but only that there was none recorded in this data. If the system had been throttled, the net energy for that day would be less than other days, and there are no examples of that.
If the data set showed significant variations on energy output, then throttling might have occurred.
(Needless to say, in real life the data is fake. It does not mean a thing, or prove a thing. I guess it proves that Rossi and Penon are inept when it comes to making fake data.)
But, the Exhibit 18 has legal status. That's what parties claim. JED's statement is just FUD or a joke. You can shoose.
Exhibit 5 also has legal status. Everything I say it based on it. Exhibit 5 shows the output was the same every day. It conflicts with Exhibit 18. Rossi's data agrees with Exhibit 5.
QuoteYou say is clear and fair. ( (dark-) Planet? Universe?? - Rossi and JED say two different things ==> JED is joking.But, the Exhibit 18 has legal status. That's what parties claim. JED's statement is just FUD or a joke. You can shoose.
See Jed'spost above.
Note also that legal exhibit does not mean true. If, for example, the exhibit is something that IH is directly claiming on their own cognizance its falsity will reflect on their integrity: their expensive lawyers would be very foolish to allow such in evidence. If, on the other hand this is a letter from a Rossi Minion (his lawyer - dressed up as president of the "customer" company) makes a technical claim about power:
(1) Its invalidity reflects on nobody, not even the lawyer, because he can claim he was misadvised.
(2) Rossi has made so many bizaare claims, and spurious legal arguments, that he does not seem to care about integrity in a forthcoming legal case.
Amateur Rossi psychologists - I know that many here can't resist the exercise - may reckon these rash statements are because Rossi never intends to go to Court. But that is too rational. My (entirely unsubstantiated) view is that Rossi cares only for immediate dramatic effect. He does not think about the future, just as he does not think about the past, and reckons he can go on changing his story to match circumstances without cost.
So, Wyttenbach, if you make Rossisays equivalent to lawyer-screened stuff from IH you are severely misreading the context.
Exhibit 5 also has legal status.
JED You should read Exhibit 5 again:
Citation: the conserved mass flow rate of the system from February to November 2015 was on
average 33,558 kg/day.
33.558 not 36... They did (E. 5) nowhere mention 10%. I propose You use, up from know, the correct value of 33.56m3 for steam delivered, together with the correct wording "average".
JED You should read Exhibit 5 again:
Citation: the conserved mass flow rate of the system from February to November 2015 was on
average 33,558 kg/day.
You are right. There must have been some variation in the reported flow rate, in data I am unfamiliar with. I refer to the part that says:
"In fact, from June 30, 2015 through July 27, 2015, the effective flowed water in the unit was, according to your daily valuation report for that period, 36,000 Kg/d on each and every day, without deviation. See Exhibit B. How is that plausible?"
"In fact, from June 30, 2015 through July 27, 2015, the effective flowed water in the unit was, according to your daily valuation report for that period, 36,000 Kg/d on each and every day, without deviation. See Exhibit B. How is that plausible?"
My experience of large machines (eg ocean liners) is that they settle into a "groove" where everything is in balance (I recall one occasion when, after 5 days, there was a slight change of engine speed and all the passengers looked up in alarm). With an array of pumps delivering 36,000 Kg/day +- 0.4% (probably better) the flowmeter will most likely also stabilize.
The "customer invoice" for the period does not exclude 30 days straight at 1MW.
I can see that I struck a nerve. I don't doubt whatever Jed says. As I've said in the past, I believe that Jed fundamentally strives to be honest. But one of his characteristics is to exaggerate. I don't think he even realizes he does it, until it is pointed out to him. And when it is something as clear as "such and such Exhibit says this," when such and such Exhibit does not say that, then it is behooves me or others to highlight the inconsistency. There is nothing "needling" about that, or even mean.
The stakes are high here, not only for Rossi and IH, but for the world. Because if there really is a LENR+ solution for the world, and we let it slip by because of misinformation, then you will be partly to blame, as will I.
As for Murray, I asked for his qualifications. You seem to trust him as competent without any evidence as to his actual qualifications. Maybe you have access to those. If so, would you care to share?
THHuxley wrote:
"Go for it! Let him suffocate!"
I don't appreciate that kind of imagery or rhetoric.
THHuxley wrote:
"IHFB could decide that he has better things to do here, and would serve truth better, by providing rational and reasoned judgement rather than psychological warfare."
Yes, with my psychological prowess, I am waging war on Jed, you, and others. Give me a break.
"In fact, from June 30, 2015 through July 27, 2015, the effective flowed water in the unit was, according to your daily valuation report for that period, 36,000 Kg/d on each and every day, without deviation. See Exhibit B. How is that plausible?"
This period (June 30, 2015 through July 27, 2015) is included in the above mentioned period (Feb. 2015 - Nov. 2015). Thus it's not wise to look for a matching subset, just for the reason to construct an argument.
I guess, in a few weeks, the enigma is blown up and we will know more about the fantastic Doral test or .. what ever story.
(PS: July is hot in Florida, may be he delivered more environment heat...)
It seems there was a 24/7 operation of the "steam plant" in that specific period in September 2015 - all day, all night and all weekends. 30 days!
Implies also a production (in my opinion) that ran 24/7 and did consume all the heat and steam, otherwise the plant would have had shut down at night or on weekend... again: hard to believe that there was a "production at the customer site", since no one ever confirmed (not even Rossi) any employees coming and going as well as no confirmed traffic of goods. Or did I miss that somewhere?
Quote
I can see that I struck a nerve. I don't doubt whatever Jed says. As I've said in the past, I believe that Jed fundamentally strives to be honest. But one of his characteristics is to exaggerate. I don't think he even realizes he does it, until it is pointed out to him. And when it is something as clear as "such and such Exhibit says this," when such and such Exhibit does not say that, then it is behooves me or others to highlight the inconsistency.
You don't needle me. You have stated here a number of times that your intent is to provoke "opoonents" and while I understand this personally I don't think it is the est way to find the truth.
Quote
There is nothing "needling" about that, or even mean.The stakes are high here, not only for Rossi and IH, but for the world. Because if there really is a LENR+ solution for the world, and we let it slip by because of misinformation, then you will be partly to blame, as will I.
This is Mats argument - used I believe here against the now fabled TC - that any disinformation is fair on the pro-Rossi side because his invention, if real is so important.
It shows both self-importance - the idea these blogs can have a significant effect on mores and shakers other than to point out self-validating truth - and also misunderstanding. Inventions of such importance will out what may, if real.
Rossi has however always eschewed the simple validation that would test whether his invention is real. For me that, when continued, shows it is not.
Where's the signal?
I suggest you do the historic Rossi photo water meter tour.
You mean the photographs leading to pages and pages of conjectures and no conclusion?
. . . that any disinformation is fair on the pro-Rossi side because his invention, if real is so important.
That is not the argument. The argument is that any disinformation from the pro-IH camp is not fair. Indeed, if a LENR+ solution does exist for the world, such disinformation is potentially damaging to humanity. It is such disinformation, which if not highlighted and neutralized, might impede progress.
Now, if IH would be more forthcoming, while ceasing their sneaky misdirection that so far permeates their public announcements and court filings, renounce the inconsistencies that have been highlighted by many of the LENR+ community, and start to generally come across as above-board, then yes, they could persuade me to drop Rossi's position as a viable one, and put this chapter behind me. But so far, I haven't sensed anything close to that coming from IH.
Now, if IH would be more forthcoming, while ceasing their sneaky misdirection that so far permeates their public announcements and court filings,
They have been completely forthcoming. Exhibit 5 is correct, and there is more real information in it than everything Rossi has ever published in his blog.
renounce the inconsistencies that have been highlighted by many of the LENR+ community,
These inconsistencies are imaginary. The LENR+ community, a.k.a. Planet Rossi, is a collection of people deluded by wishful thinking.
They have been completely forthcoming. Exhibit 5 is correct, and there is more real information in it than everything Rossi has ever published in his blog.
Exhibit 5 is a copy of a document purportedly given (delivered?) to Penon by Murray, the engineer working for Industrial Heat, about May 25, 2016. I assume it is an accurate copy of that document. There may have been a cover letter, signed. At this point, IH and Rossi were already communicating through their lawyers (the same as in the lawsuit).
The document is apparently a memorialization of a conversation between Murray and Penon on or about the end of the Doral power run. Jed says that it is correct. I consider that possible, but what it clearly is, is a set of reasonable questions that, apparently, Penon did not answer. Why is this important to IH? Because, as a secondary line of defense, they are establishing that Penon was not a neutral engineer, but was there to support Rossi. He was not working for IH, but for Rossi, even if it had been arranged for IH to pay him.
Remember, IH was sued for almost $300 million. On Planet Rossi, if they defend themselves, they are considered "sneaky." The Amended Answer is already quite long. They have answered adequately that if Rossi doesn't establish his case with better and more complete evidence, it may be vulnerable to dismissal by Summary Judgment. They do not need to establish every point. On Planet Rossi, that Exhibit 5 had no signature and was not internally dated is brought up as if it were some smoking gun. In the real lawsuit, that is not a defect, because the document will be entered through sworn testimony. The document was also accompanied by a series of Exhibits. And, yes, the lawyers may have been consulted in writing it. On Planet Rossi, involving lawyers is considered a heinous crime. Except, wait, Rossi filed the suit!
The Planet Rossi story has it that Rossi was taken in by these slick big-money types, and apparently he didn't consult a lawyer about the Agreement. So the chit-chat about Cherokee was really important and he really believed Cherokee would pay if IH didn't. What may have actually happened was that he was told that Darden and Vaughn had access to investors with very deep pockets -- vide Cherokee -- and if IH needed to raise the money, they could get assistance. But that Rossi could imagine that if IH decided that Rossi should not be paid, Cherokee would foot the bill, demonstrates legal idiocy. And I'm sure any attorney would have told him that. So ... either he didn't consult an attorney back then, or he is being deceptive now in his filing.
Rossi is evasive, continually, and has been for many years. Yet here, IHFB projects that onto IH.
IH is not engaging in a public relations war. My sense of IH is that they DGAF about how all this looks. They work through individual contacts with large investors, people who are not naive and who do due diligence. They are not selling anything to the public. Industrial Heat was probably not planning massive production if the E-Cat worked, not themselves. They would have sold sublicenses, that is where they would make their money. They only became involved in making E-Cats in order to test and validate the technology. And this is the message that Planet Rossi really doesn't want to hear: When Rossi was paid for his technology, $11.5 million, with another $89 million contingent on a GPT, conditions were set up for what had been impossible before: independent testing. And IH is claiming that they did these tests, and never were able to confirm excess heat.
Before, it was always possible to excuse the testing being incomplete, involving Rossi, etc. But here is a company that invested a lot, much more than $11.5 million once their work is included (Rossi gives the cost of the Doral plant as $200,000, and that plant was built and rebuilt several times, apparently), and the results were: no excess heat.
At this point any investor doing due diligence will properly be extraordinarily careful before trusting anything Rossi says. Rossi lies, or presents what he knows will deceive.
(In the matter of the Hydro Fusion test in 2012, he either deceived Hydro Fusion by "warning them that the test could fail," and then making it fail, or he deceived IH by claiming that he made a negative test fail, when it actually failed.)
Planet Rossi wants to know about heat. I get it, I want to know as well. But IH has no obligation to scratch that itch. I will urge them to reveal all they can, as I have opportunity. But the choice is theirs.
QuoteIH Fanboy wrote:
These inconsistencies are imaginary. The LENR+ community, a.k.a. Planet Rossi, is a collection of people deluded by wishful thinking.
"LENR+" is a term that I first saw with Peter Gluck, a long term cold fusion researcher and, later, blogger. It represents a story that he developed that "LENR" is sick and weak and useless, and that "LENR+" is going to change the planet. Peter stopped caring about science long ago, and as he became more and more strident, he began to severely irritate the research community. He is still tolerated -- the CMNS community is tolerant almost to a fault.
The "LENR+" community exists almost entirely on blogs. Few genuine researchers participate. (There are exceptions, so nobody should take that personally.) MFMP crosses over, and there are MFMP subscribers to the CMNS mailing list.
"the inconsistencies" are not defined in what was quoted. How about this: a big fuss was made over the denial in the Answer that Vaughn is a "manager" at Cherokee. Given that Vaughn claims, on his Linked-In profile to be a manager there, this seemed totally ridiculous, inconsistent, smokescreen. However, the revised Answer makes it clear that the word "manager" has a specific legal significance for an LLC, which Cherokee is, and that is what the denial is about. It is probably related to an ability to commit the LLC to something, though I have not researched that thoroughly. Many other alleged inconsistencies are based on assumptions and ideas about motives.
"If they believed there was no heat, how come they...."
These, in general, miss that motives can be complex and not necessarily obvious. IH was following a strategy, a plan, almost certainly, and consistently, from 2012 on. Rossi is more or less right in one way: they had no intention to pay him $89 million unless he actually taught them to make devices that worked, no matter what goofiness he arranged with the "GPT" and "ERV." If they couldn't make devices and have them pass independent testing, they could not sell licenses or investments without deceiving customers or investors. And so Industrial Heat, even if a GPT were arranged and an ERV signed off on it, would simply go bankrupt, *unless it could make devices.*
Rossi is attempting to pierce the corporate veil because he is unwilling to accept the consequences of his own failures. We can speculate and argue about why he is doing this. Some say it's because he didn't trust IH and wanted to get out of the deal. If that's true, though, he definitely can't collect on the Agreement, because he chose to violate it "to get out of the deal."
If Rossi could prove that IH is involved in a conspiracy to suppress the technology, then he could turn this around. But he has alleged no evidence at all of this, his story is merely that they wanted to steal his secrets and didn't intend to pay. Yet they can't make money from "stolen secrets" unless devices can be made that work when tested independently, and Rossi could very easily and quickly arrange independent testing and would not need IH approval for that, if done in Sweden. However, functioning devices in Sweden would not show that he satisfied his part of the Agreement. It might show the opposite.
As others have pointed out, the Occam's Razor hypothesis has become fraud, from the beginning. Previously, the circumstantial evidence against that was more or less, "He'd have to be crazy to be a fraud like this." What the Answer presently shows, my opinion, is that he is a fraud or crazy or both.
Have any of his devices actually generated excess heat? Even if it is proven that he is a fraud, that does not prove "no heat ever." However, it is not impossible that evidence will surface that will show total fraud. Or, in the other direction, possibly, independent investigations will show that something was possible in what he was doing. As to making a fortune from it, he may have completely destroyed that possibility by his behavior with Industrial Heat.
Quote"He'd have to be crazy to be a fraud like this." What the Answer presently shows, my opinion, is that he is a fraud or crazy or both.
I won't commit myself as to fraud - which is a legal term requiring strong justification. And "crazy" is a very loose term.
Rossi is a very unusual person. Even the rossifans here would agree that I think. the circumstantial argument that maybe he has something has mostly been "we can't imagine him acting like that if he had nothing". Personally I've never seen that. But he is unusual - probably believing what he says while also acting like a transparent fraudster. It has always been a lack of imagination about the infinite variety of humanity that has been the failure of those supporting Rossi.
The 0.0 bar pressure must have been measured in the steam condinsate before the pump. The pressure from the pump would increase water pressure above atmospheric. This above atmospheric pressure produced by the circulating pump would explain the 102 deg C on the steam. The pump would only need to produce a 30 feet head on the water circuit.
This is a bizarre analysis. Nobody would care particularly about the pressure at the condensate side. Rather, pressure at the reactor outlet was relevant to a claim that the steam was superheated.
Saturated steam is 100.0 C at 0.0 barG, and that G is important. The same fact can be expressed as 100.0 C at 1.0 bar. The latter is more precise, because if the ambient pressure is higher, the absolute pressure corresponding to 0.0 barG will be higher, and it is absolute pressure which determines the boiling point of water, which determines saturated steam temperature. Superheated steam will be above that temperature.
There is a pump operating, plus they are boiling water in the reactors. The pressure at the reactor outlet, which is also the place where temperature would be measured, must be higher than at the other end. Unless they are operating under vacuum at the condensate end, then, the pressure must be higher than 0.0 barG. Murray also makes this point in Exhibit 5, in a different way:
QuoteYou stated that the pressure of the steam that was available to J.M. Products (JMP) was nominally atmospheric pressure (0 kilo Pascals gauge (kPaG) or 14.7 psia). The steam passed through a stretch of insulated pipe that was at least 6 meters long before entering the JMP space. (Presumably there was additional steam pipe on the JMP side.) According to the data you have reported, the conserved mass flow rate of the system from February to November 2015 was on average 33,558 kg/day (1398 kg/h) and the temperature of the water and steam were on average 68.7º C and 102.8º C, respectively. The steam pressure was reported (for the entire period) to be 0 kPaG and the piping is DN40.
For steam to flow, a pressure differential is required to overcome the losses in the pipe. Given the foregoing, this would require that the pressure on the JMP side of the building was significantly below atmospheric (vacuum) and that the steam would flow at extraordinary velocity. But this was obviously not the situation present at the location.
