[feedquote='E-Cat World','http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/08/17/rossi-distributed-heat-will-be-the-start/']I asked Rossi about a topic he had brought up some weeks ago, to find out what his current thinking/plans were for district heating: Frank Acland August 17, 2016 at 1:36 PM Dear Andrea, A few weeks ago you said you thought the first commercial application for the industrial E-Cat plants would be in the […][/feedquote]
Rossi: ‘Distributed Heat Will be the Start’
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So this is the new strategy...district heating or distributed heat didn't seem to be the focus for the first sold 13 units (?). Or maybe there were no sales so far and this is the real start?
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This way he has again the possibility to control and hide the plant internals.
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... Or maybe there were no sales so far and this is the real start?
You got half of that right!
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This way he has again the possibility to control and hide the plant internals.
Well, it makes sense. With a district heating application there are many users needing heat. They will know whether they are getting heat or not!So, suppose Rossi has a Steam Generator in a Container, like the E-cat. In fact, perhaps as part of a settlement with IH, Rossi could buy the plant back. He could then install it at some location, feeding steam. He can have total access to the plant, and his employees. And could sell the output for $1000 per day or so. If the thing works. I would not suggest advancing him any money, but putting money in escrow could make sense. That is what IH did with the Validation Test and the only problem there was a punk evaluation method. A real method that showed actual delivery of heat could release $X per day. Who cares what the plant is producing if the customers are actually receiving?
(And if there is an alternate heating method in place, if the plant breaks down, nobody but Rossi loses.)
If Rossi wants to run some fake, as long as the heat is real, big deal! Much simpler than the whole IH mess, which was designed for a very different purpose, to investigate the technology.
This would be, in a way, calling Rossi's bluff. Deliver power, get paid. The market rules. What he has been saying, and what he could have done from 2012 on, if he had a real 1 MW plant.
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Regarding Rossi's plans to sell heat in Sweden:
Who cares what the plant is producing if the customers are actually receiving?
Yeah! Who cares? You announce that you are going to install a nuclear fusion reactor that works by unknown principles and produces a megawatt of heat in a populated area for district heating. It has never been tested or proved to work, and the inventor often claims it is on the verge of a run-away reaction so everyone has to clear the room. But hey, no problem! The Swedish government will not interfere or ask questions. That would be out of character. It's the Wild West in Europe. There are no regulations or product safety laws. -
At the current stage of the E-Cat's development, it behaves like a large coal fired steam boiler. The E-Cat cannot respond to heat on demand and must produce heat at a constant level. While Rossi is developing a more responsive control method, any application that can use a constant production of steam based heat should be met by the E-Cat. District heating is such an application.
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Regarding Rossi's plans to sell heat in Sweden:
Yeah! Who cares? You announce that you are going to install a nuclear fusion reactor that works by unknown principles and produces a megawatt of heat in a populated area for district heating. It has never been tested or proved to work, and the inventor often claims it is on the verge of a run-away reaction so everyone has to clear the room. But hey, no problem! The Swedish government will not interfere or ask questions. That would be out of character. It's the Wild West in Europe. There are no regulations or product safety laws.It is now clear that Jed Rothwell intends to undercut Rossi's business plans at every turn. Could it be that Jed is working for interests that are in competition with Rossi?
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The Swedish government will not interfere or ask questions. That would be out of character. It's the Wild West in Europe. There are no regulations or product safety laws.
It is now clear that Jed Rothwell intends to undercut Rossi's business plans at every turn.
Yes! I am charge of the Swedish government. In fact, I am the King of Sweden.Not only do I intend to undercut Rossi's business plans, I intend to stop I.H. and also ExxonMobil. My powers are unlimited!
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Rossi follows the old phone sex scheme. Whatever you ask, he'll say yes. Had Frank asked whether the first application would be nuclear powered toe nail clippers, he'd probably received a similar answer. Apart from that - using the e-cat for distributed heating is an awful idea. Even in Florida it couldn't heat the small warehouse it was installed in. Hardly the right tool for heating hundreds of homes in chilly Sweden. And what happened to the secret customer with the secret, brutally endothermic process? Surely they were deeply satisfied with the e-cat's performance and expect Rossi to deliver hundreds of them. After all they've been through (swapping a happy life playing soccer in Royston for being stuck in a shitty container in Florida for a year) they surely expect not to come second to some freezing Swedes. Searching Rossilivecat for "application" is interesting, btw. Hundreds of promising possibilities that were worked on by lots of experts with secret partners and always SO close to becoming reality. At one point, Rossi even claimed he had an entire department working on nothing but figuring out new ways to use something as trivial as heat:
Andrea Rossi
July 26th, 2013 at 3:37 PM
Steven N Karels:
Maybe the germ of a great idea. Today we have decided to open a new divison in our organization, with a proper responsible: ” Future Applications Division”. To study where is more convenient we put our efforts for the long term . Your comment is inspiring in this sense.
Warm Regards,
A.R.And after three years "they" came up with "Yes".
Edit: Just for the record. The application S. Karels proposed was "naval powerplants and railroad powerplants"
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Rossi follows the old phone sex scheme. Whatever you ask, he'll say yes. Had Frank asked whether the first application would be nuclear powered toe nail clippers, he'd probably received a similar answer.
That is a brilliant analysis!Apart from that - using the e-cat for distributed heating is an awful idea. Even in Florida it couldn't heat the small warehouse it was installed in. Hardly the right tool for heating hundreds of homes in chilly Sweden.
An astute observation. You have to understand, Rossi's 1 MW of heat is not your garden variety megawatt. No, no. It is a reclusive creature that flees at the sight of instruments, and dares not affect the temperature. A sort of virtual megawatt. It is a refined, Platonic ideal of heat, an archetype if you will, rather than a messy, in-your-face, of-this-plebeian-world sort of heat. -
I have made the suggestion of the nuclear powered toe nail clippers to Rossi, maybe a positive response
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Platonic ideal of heat
Oh I see. That must also be the reason why Rossi never ever showed "self sustain" in his demonstrations. It had nothing to do with safety (a non-sensical argument anyway). He constantly had to use electricity because the heat produced by the e-cat itself was the platonic variety and he needed the messy other one. Things are becoming almost axilesquely clear now. -
The liars and thieves of LENR claims seem to have no original thoughts. The idea of selling heat is stolen from those unconscionable jackasses at Defkalion. Remember? They were selling heat to the Police Academy in Xanthi. Only nobody ever consulted the Academy and it never received any heat. Same old scam. Not even a new twist.
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Rossi follows the old phone sex scheme. Whatever you ask, he'll say yes. Had Frank asked whether the first application would be nuclear powered toe nail clippers, he'd probably received a similar answer.
Jami,
Do you realize that is the first time in years you have showed a sense of humor? Where did you hide it? Congratulations nonetheless! Maybe there is some hope for you Germans.
Back on the topic at hand, I find it interesting that Rossi yesterday hires a lawyer to negotiate his way to a settlement (possibly), while making a "shout out" to his Hydrofusion buddy Magnus, and only remaining licensee, today on JONP. Keeping in mind that IH just released info showing that Rossi deceived Hydrofuion/Magnus 3 years ago. And for some reason Sifferkoll...also involved with Hydrofusion, disappears from L-F for 3 whole days, and there is now talk of the a 1MW plant providing "distributed heat", which I take it that only the Swedes do?
It just does not add up.
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Not only the Swedes. Local heating schemes are popping up all over N Europe.
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Local heating schemes...
Usually these schemes focus on cogeneration. The idea being that if you burn lots of fossil fuel to generate electricity anyway, why accept waste heat when all around such a power plant even more fossil fuel is burned to heat buildings and water. Better to pipe that waste heat to consumers and make use of it. I know of not a single example for a local heating scheme where heat is generated on its own just to be distributed. Have you got one?
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I know of not a single example for a local heating scheme where heat is generated on its own just to be distributed. Have you got one?
I know of two, past and present:Consolidated Edison, New York City, the largest district heating system in the world. It is ~50% from co-generation, and 50% from generation of steam only. I do not think there is enough close in-town electric generating capacity for 100% co-gen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_steam_system
Cornell University. This used to be coal fired, without electric generation, but I think it is now fully co-gen with natural gas:
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3 Million people in France get their heating and summertime cooling from District heat schemes in France - some co-generation schemes, some woody-biomass-fired, some burn maize (which is a horrible idea IMHO) . I worked as preliminary adviser and 'fixer' on 3 such schemes in the early 2000's. I believe there are around 300 DH schemes in place now, supplying over 5% of France's energy needs.
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3 Million people in France get their heating and summertime cooling from District heat schemes in France - some co-generation schemes, some woody-biomass-fired, some burn maize (which is a horrible idea IMHO) . I worked as preliminary adviser and 'fixer' on 3 such schemes in the early 2000's. I believe there are around 300 DH schemes in place now, supplying over 5% of France's energy needs.
districtenergy.org/assets/pdfs/FrancePresentation.pdf
Thus there is an open door for the possibility of Rossi -- or anyone with a power plant like he claims -- to profit from it by selling heat. The idea of the Doral plant was a great one, had it been a real customer, who would actually have measured the delivered heat, paying for it as delivered. A Rossi-type plant, if it can't be throttled back, would simply have a dissipation setup for heat not sold.
What stopped Rossi from doing this years ago? This is how it appears at present: he didn't do this because he hasn't had a plant that could make a profit selling heat like this. It's that simple.
Jed raises the issue of regulation. While there could be a problem, that has not been confronted. Rossi could install gas heaters to make a steam generator. Then, if he could reduce his own fuel costs by an experimental nickel hydride "supplement," and if this is monitored for, say, radioactive contamination, my guess is that regulatory agencies could be satisfied. This would be what he's been claiming is needed, "the market." If he can sell power, making a profit, he has a demonstration, and more installations can be made, etc.
If Engineer48 sets up an installation, great! The proof will be when real people with real money are spending it for heat. No ERV needed.
If the Doral plant was really producing heat, independent customer heat monitoring would have established it. Instead, the customer invoice requests were for nominal values, almost certainly simply based on Rossi claims. They were obviously not measured values, being either 750 kW power levels per day or 1 MW, and not even broken down by time. (i.e, if there were a day where the 250 kW Tiger came back on-line, say at noon, then the day would have been 875 kW. A difference of $125 for billing.
Those numbers were totally unreliable. A real power sale would be measured definitively by the using agency, not by the supplier. (Yes, the utility company bills me, using meters of high reliability, installed for each customer. However, how do they pay their suppliers? The water company the same; and water meters will read correctly or will read low. If they underbill me, their problem. If there is a leak on my side of the meter, my problem!)
