[feedquote='E-Cat World','http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/08/19/analyzing-e-cat-plant-pumps-indicate-cop1-engineer48/']There are a couple of new posts from Engineer48 that provide a new way of looking at possible COP from the Doral E-Cat Plant that I thought were worthy of a new post. To further show the COP = 1 claim is not correct, we can see the 24 computer controlled pumps that are set […][/feedquote]
Analyzing E-Cat Plant Pump Photos Indicate COP>1 (Engineer48)
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Hi all
So as explained in the article the photograph confirms the minimum COP is 13.8 just from the topping up pumps.
We finally have confirmation the E-Cat works with a high COP.
Kind Regards walker
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I'm not putting to discussion the conclusions of Engineer48, but I have two questions that may be worth discussing:
1) Why do all tubes in the photo contain brown liquid, which is evidently leaking?
2) Why would there be a need of having so many little pumps? -
I'm all for more data like this being shared. Unfortunately, we don't know when the photo was taken. Let's see the raw data! Which is what IH wanted, but was refused by Fabiani, Penon, and by extension AR. This fact alone is extremely shady, and I can't imagine anyone paying $89M for a "Penon says" validation.
Whereas this is presented as evidence that COP>1, we don't have enough details to declare that.
Engineer 48 says:
QuoteThis is then a total flow of 414kg/hr or a COP of 13.8. The rest of the 1,086kg/hr flow needed to deliver a COP = 50 was delivered by a master pump.
Let's see this master pump and more data. At best, we see ~9000 kg/day accounted for with these mini-pumps.
If AR can explain how moving the plant to Florida made it start working, turn over the raw data, and present the customer who vouches for the energy use, it might be convincing. As it is, it looks like a bait and switch con with IH. Telling them this would be a customer installation that they could make some money on and then pretending that they have agreed this is the GPT.
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Hi GameOver,
The tubing stated out clear.
Note the lack of dirt and grime on and around the pumps in this earlier photo of the 4 banks of 6 pumps.
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1) Why do all tubes in the photo contain brown liquid, which is evidently leaking?
Here the original picture Rossi posted. May be just before starting the leakings... (Steam damage of pumps?)
(But check, there are some differences, which makes the first ing48 picture doubtful).Post just overlapped...
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Wyttenbach, Engineer48,
In that photo the pumps LEDs seem to be turned off, doesn't this imply that the plant or the modules weren't running at the time?
Anyway, my suggestion (actually not mine, it has been discussed already elsewhere) is not that the brown stains indicate dirt&grime, but that the working liquid itself maybe is not simply water.
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brown liquid
Could be anything. Rust, dirt, bacteria. If Rossi wouldn't just let it circulate with a mild 20 kW heating once per circle, it'd all clog up in whatever part is supposed to turn that filth into steam. Since it doesn't, these pictures actually prove (if anything) that the COP is in fact 1. No surprise there.
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Quote from e48
This is then a total flow of 414kg/hr or a COP of 13.8. The rest of the 1,086kg/hr flow needed to deliver a COP = 50 was delivered by a master pump.
There are many isues here. But the obvious one is the big and wrong assumption that the scaling between flow rate and COP is known.
Let us suppose that input power is as assumed by e48 (I'm not certain of that, but it seems one of the more certain quantities here).
Let us also suppose that this photo determines the flow rate, as e48 believes - personally I don't think that is a safe assumption.
EVEN THEN COP depends on the heat delivered to the fake "customer" per kg of pumped fluid.
We don't know what is that. We can limit it:
heat/kg = 2257kJ * deltaS + 4.2kJ*deltaT
Here:
- deltaT is the difference in temperature between input and output. Somewhere between 0 and 60C. We have no information because Rossi told the ERV (who apparently answered to Rossi and not IH) not to report the input temperature.
- deltaS is the "dryness" of the combined steam and water stream output from the reactors. We have no information about that because the correct instrumentation: pressure, temperature, and layout, traps, inspection etc to ensure that no liquid is present in the output stream has not been released and almost certainly does not exist. Delta could therefore could be anything between 0 and 1. A significant liquid water content in the output and it would be very near to 0.
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Could be anything. Rust, dirt, bacteria. If Rossi wouldn't just let it circulate with a mild 20 kW heating once per circle, it'd all clog up in whatever part is supposed to turn that filth into steam. Since it doesn't, these pictures actually prove (if anything) that the COP is in fact 1. No surprise there.So are you suggesting that Rossi didn't even heat this dirty-looking water to boiling temperature because it would then come off as purified steam? Interesting point. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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heat/kg = 2257kJ * deltaS + 4.2kJ*deltaT
No steam gives you a COP in the 1 range. That assumes there is not another big pump.
Check my calculations. Delta T from 60 to 100C = 40C.
((414 kg / hr)*4200*40)/3600 = 19320 J/s (watts)
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Why do you guys even argue
It's game over, we've been knowing for weeks that the gadget doesn't work...
Can't understand why you feel the need to discuss this pseudoscience that has been debunked for years
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There is only two alternative :
either COP about 50, client is real, steam nearly dry, client exploiting endothermic process.or many people have been fooled, IH, and me included.
Rossi have the power to make me change my view, with evidences and data, not with words.
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Quote
So are you suggesting...
... that Rossi always, in all e-cat demos using water, just let the pumps run at whatever throughput they were running and pretended that his magic reaction somehow exactly matched the amount of energy required for that water to be turned into steam, yes. In the early demos this included the sudden 6-fold burst in power required just when the water reached boiling point. Later he simply ignored that starting up phase. But the principle always stayed the same. You had to believe that what came out at the other end was dry steam in order to believe that there ever was COP > 1 and all evidence I've ever seen contradicts that (dirty water in a supposedly closed loop with a dry steam phase in the middle included). -
Jami, luckily you stopped me in time: I was about to start to fantasize that the E-Cat plant in the photo was using the effect of cavitating bubbles of near-boiling water on the metal particles suspended within it as a colloid, explaining why Rossi was photographed using a stethoscope some time ago.
"Why is water loudest just before it boils?"
http://www.thenakedscientists.…estions/question/1000219/ -
Old italian tradition of listening for the right moment to dump the pasta in the water
Baking bread, cooking pasta... truly a groundbreaking invention!
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Anybody who messes with steam boilers knows that re-used feed-water gradually picks up iron oxide which turns it rusty brown in colour - generally accompanied by hydrogen production according to the formula shown below. Rossi did complain about internal corrosion at around 300 days in (from memory). Something I expected and predicted. Not so many people know the ins and outs of steam-boilers these days, I am just too old!
Generally it is advisable to use feed-water pre-treatment (to remove Chlorine sterilisant where present) and also add corrosion inhibition compounds like the UK brand 'Fernox'.
The amount of colouration of the water suggests to me that this system has been hot and running for some weeks or months. That is not a scientific opinion, but one based on experience.
BTW Just once in a blue moon the evolved Hydrogen will built up in the headspace of the system somewhere and go off bang. But it is very rare.
2Fe +3H20 = Fe2O3 + 3 H2.
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Quote
based on experience
Based on experience - how does the rust make it through the steam pipe, through the heat exchanger, through the condenser and back into the loop? Or is the rust we're seeing all from the condenser, the reservoir and the piping and does concentrate as residue on the vaporizer? At that rate - how long would it take to completely clog the vaporizer (whatever size and shape it is - lets take the entire volume of a "reactor" as the upper limit) and how long would it take for anything downstream from the condenser to simply vanish as rust in the water (which it would have to to leave that kind of visible trace in the water at the rate it's supposedly flowing)? Isn't it infinitely more likely that what we see in those pipes is the rust from many weeks or months of operation gradually built up in the water and never removed because that water never turned to steam but was just pumped around?
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Hi all
To those confused about basic chemistry; steel steam pipes contain iron and thus can corrode to:
http://www.tlv.com/global/US/steam-theory/corrosion.htmlKind Regards walker
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Alan Smith,
Iron oxide (rust) also catalyzes a large number of chemical reactions in particular in the petrochemical industry so one is left wondering if more "creative" uses of this effect have not actually been put into practice, if that was indeed iron oxide. I guess that speculation possibilities are endless at this point.
But Jami has a good point against Rossi's case. How do these metal impurities go back into the loop if dry steam is generated 24/7? I can only think this would happen with very wet steam or if steam is not always generated.
