Thermal Analysis of the Production Plant Process in the 1MW test in Doral, Florida (GiveADogABone)

So just to point out the obvious:

Chemical energy is essentially electrical (electrostatic bonds stretching etc) and therefore low entropy. You cannot convert heat into hydrocarbon fuel energy without an amount of waste heat given by the Carnot limit, that is in this case 80% as waste. So this idea would store only 20% of the 1MW.

If the flow rate is roughly as claimed, then the trick to get very little power delivered to the 'factory' is simple:
(1) Almost no water leaves the reactor as steam, almost all as liquid.
(2) the return fluid is at near to 100C.

Both of these are very possible given what we know of the setup. Note that Rossi asked the ERV not to record return fluid temperature, and that claiming phase change when none exists is a long-standing habit of Rossi. The flow rate may also be much lower than claimed, of course.

ECW analysis seems to have gone downhill. This suggestion is impossible, whereas evaporating lots of tap water is possible - though likley contradicted by other evidence.

Quote from Bob

I am not trying to be a hard nosed critic here, but we need to keep all evidence in mind. Tossing up "theoretical" possibilities does little to solve the problem or gain credence. Someone should simply ask Rossi! What was being made? He does not have to tell the customer's name or anything! His lawsuit, it will be his job to present the facts.

Yes, it does matter what was being made.

It either must be a process that requires 100C+ water/steam or the test is fake. That flow meter in its normal range of operation could handle much greater flows easily keeping the water from changing phase. The only argument for producing a phase change is that it was required by the customer. AR must produce the customer if he has any hope of salvaging the credibility of the test.

In the discussion at e-cat world, Mats Lewan wrote:

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Ironically, Jed Rothwell who insists that 'a megawatt of heat in that space would have killed everyone, yet people say it was no warmer than any normal building,' covers exactly this kind of process in his pdf-book 'Cold Fusion and the Future' (see below).

Not only that! In the excerpt below he also describes the process of making oil from organic waste, which Rossi worked with in the 80's, and which some people still claim was fraud.

Then he goes on to suggest this is a thermal depolymerization plant. I wrote a response which is presently embargoed. This shows how far off the deep end he has gone:

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Depolymerization plant efficiency is usually around 40%. Meaning 60% of the heat is waste heat. There is not slightest chance 600 kW was released in this building. Also, depolymerization plants are the size of city block. You cannot hide one in this facility. A plant that uses 1 MW of process heat would require a large truckload of materials every day, such as turkey slaughtering plant offal or sewage. It is not legal to process such materials in a commercial warehouse.

As noted here, this would be physically impossible and illegal.

Also, the working temperature at these plants is 500°C.

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You could lose 300kW of heat that way,

You'd only get theoretical potential 30% efficiency if the steam was at high pressure, which Rossi denies, or if your waste heat sink is quite low in temperature, not I think feasible. What is this 30% efficiency generator running from 100C and 30C?

I should modify what I said previously. The Carnot limit does not apply the same way if the 100C steam is under very high pressure because you also have a pressure differential from which power can be derived. You get higher possible efficiency then. I think (perhaps I'm wrong). But not very high!

Speaking of condensers - how much steam can possibly flow through a DN40 pipe when the absolute pressure at one end is 1 atm and any value lower than that (lets say it was a really efficient condenser or even that pressure was 0 for the fun of it) at the other end?

Quote from Alan Smith

You lose 30% because you have a cold water spray condenser on the steam engine

A Newcomen Atmospheric Engine! A marvelous machine. They built a one-third scale model at U. Manchester and found it was more complicated and clever than modern people realize. D. Cardwell, p. 123. However, it produces a lot of waste heat.

Okay, with that machine you spray the cold water in the cylinder, not on it, but it is just as likely a Newcomen Engine as anything. The steam is close to 1 atm, and it does not push the piston. That's the point. Very safe low pressure operation.

http://www.egr.msu.edu/~lira/supp/steam/

(When I say the steam "does not push" I mean the power stroke comes from condensing steam rather than expanding steam.)

Quote from Jami

Speaking of condensers - how much steam can possibly flow through a DN40 pipe when the absolute pressure at one end is 1 atm and any value lower than that (lets say it was a really efficient condenser or even that pressure was 0 for the fun of it) at the other end?

That's what Murray wanted to know. How much, and how fast. See Exhibit 5:

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5. The flow of steam through the pipe to J.M. Products.

You stated that the pressure of the steam that was available to J.M. Products (JMP) was
nominally atmospheric pressure (0 kilo Pascals gauge (kPaG) or 14.7 psia). The steam passed
through a stretch of insulated pipe that was at least 6 meters long before entering the JMP space.
(Presumably there was additional steam pipe on the JMP side.) According to the data you have
reported, the conserved mass flow rate of the system from February to November 2015 was on
average 33,558 kg/day (1398 kg/h) and the temperature of the water and steam were on average
68.7º C and 102.8º C, respectively. The steam pressure was reported (for the entire period) to be
0 kPaG and the piping is DN40.
For steam to flow, a pressure differential is required to overcome the losses in the pipe.
Given the foregoing, this would require that the pressure on the JMP side of the building was
significantly below atmospheric (vacuum) and that the steam would flow at extraordinary
velocity. But this was obviously not the situation present at the location.
Given your reported measurements, how do you account for the lack of an adequate
pressure differential to provide for the flow of steam?

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I've read that. But I doubt 1 atm pressure difference (the maximum pressure difference possible) on two ends of a 6 meter DN40 pipe is enough to account for the alleged 1398 kg/h. What would the density have been? Maybe .6 kg/m3 or so?

Those people at e-cat world have flipped their lids. Worse than ever!

Nobody? Ok. Lets make this easier. Lets say there was no pipe of 6m length and lets assume that the e-cat was installed on ISIS and leaked its steam directly from the 1 bar outlet next to the reaction chamber into space through a perfectly round, perfectly straight pipe stub with 40 mm diameter and 60 mm length. How much steam can it possibly leak? The answer is about 1170 kg/h. So even if Murray drastically misjudged the pipe's length by two orders of magnitude and even if the pressure at the receiving end would have been zero (which is categorically impossible), the maximum possible flow rate would have been LESS than what Rossi claims he delivered to the customer. So maybe Rossi invented a pipe which has a much, much smaller outer diameter than inner diameter (patent pending). I'm sure e-catworld will come up with an explanation which is at least as likely as that in no time.

Quote from Jami

So maybe Rossi invented a pipe which has a much, much smaller outer diameter than inner diameter (patent pending).

I love it!

I often mix up "OD" and "ID" pipe designations. I have to stop, make a circle with my fingers, and sound it out. "Let's see . . . O is Outer . . ."

Quote from Jami

I'm sure e-catworld will come up with an explanation which is at least as likely as that in no time.

That's nothing for them. A mere bagatelle.

Hi all

Note who makes the compact equipment to do exactly this, and note their requirements are an exact match for the E-Cat 1 MW plant.

http://davyprotech.com/what-we…/reforming/specification/
http://davyprotech.com/what-we…er-tropsch/specification/
http://davyprotech.com/what-we…ft-process/specification/

Note also that the process uses the sponges reported as being seen in the customers plant.

Game set and match I think.

http://davyprotech.com/what-we…cification/#tab-content-2

Kind Regards walker

Brilliant find, Walker. Now all you need is a temperature doubler or tripler from radio shack, a couple of invisible, silent vans carrying lots of stuff to and from the plant unnoticed, the equipment dealing with the waste heat, a non-existent permit from the Florida authorities allowing all of that to go on in a warehouse for low hazard storage and the already mentioned magic pipe with the huuuge inner diameter and you have yourself a totally valid theory.

Quote from Walker

Note also that the process uses the sponges reported as being seen in the customers plant.

Game set and match I think.

Yes, sure. No problem fitting one of these into the warehouse:

Caption: Compact reformer in Alaska

This is from:

xxxhttp://www.jmprotech.com/images-uploaded/files/JM Methanol Brochure.pdf

Quote from Alan Smith

And on admittedly only one visit my friend the environment inspector saw no hot water in the drains or steam plume from the roof.

How did he see the hot water in the drains, with x-ray vision?