Thermal Analysis of the Production Plant Process in the 1MW test in Doral, Florida (GiveADogABone)

  • [feedquote='E-Cat World','http://www.e-catworld.com/2016/08/23/thermal-analysis-of-the-production-plant-process-in-the-1mw-test-in-doral-florida-giveadogabone/']The header article for :- Industrial Heat Amends Answer to Rossi’s Complaint on Aug 11th (Update #2 — Rossi: “The Heat Was Used, Not Vented Away”) quotes IH’s amended answer :- ‘82. … Murray also recognized that the building in which the Plant was located had no method to ventilate the heat that would be […][/feedquote]
  • So just to point out the obvious:


    Chemical energy is essentially electrical (electrostatic bonds stretching etc) and therefore low entropy. You cannot convert heat into hydrocarbon fuel energy without an amount of waste heat given by the Carnot limit, that is in this case 80% as waste. So this idea would store only 20% of the 1MW.


    If the flow rate is roughly as claimed, then the trick to get very little power delivered to the 'factory' is simple:
    (1) Almost no water leaves the reactor as steam, almost all as liquid.
    (2) the return fluid is at near to 100C.


    Both of these are very possible given what we know of the setup. Note that Rossi asked the ERV not to record return fluid temperature, and that claiming phase change when none exists is a long-standing habit of Rossi. The flow rate may also be much lower than claimed, of course.


    ECW analysis seems to have gone downhill. This suggestion is impossible, whereas evaporating lots of tap water is possible - though likley contradicted by other evidence.

  • I posted on ECW (where I rarely visit anymore) the following :


    1) The equipment for this process is very large. Notably large holding tanks. Pictures and testimony show what?


    2) The volume of raw and finished materials were stored where? Pictures and testimony show what?


    3) Compressed methane gas - extremely flammable. Do you not think the fire marshal would have something to say about permits? Warning signs around the facility?


    4) Osha and Public Safety Dept. would require a very strict inspections of possible release of explosive gases as this is a public facility and neighboring business's have actual people there.
    Workers would be subjected to OSHA regulations. Visitors would be subjected to the same safety regulations. Any testimony from anyone that safety precautions were clearly evident?


    5) The unloading of methane gas requires significant specialized equipment. Loading liquid fuel for shipment would also require specialized pumps. Pictures and testimony show what?


    6) Then letterhead presented as evidence reads "Advanced Derivatives of Johnson Matthew Platinum Sponges" Is this company also doing methane to liquid fuel conversion? Do we ignore court docket evidence to try and believe in something?


    I am not trying to be a hard nosed critic here, but we need to keep all evidence in mind. Tossing up "theoretical" possibilities does little to solve the problem or gain credence. Someone should simply ask Rossi! What was being made? He does not have to tell the customer's name or anything! His lawsuit, it will be his job to present the facts.

  • Steam Reforming of Methane to Hydrogen is clearly impossible as a heat sink. Likewise Catalytic sponge preparation (which while it loves hot water) is partly exothermic. And on admittedly only one visit my friend the environment inspector saw no hot water in the drains or steam plume from the roof.


    I suggested before the best was to lose some heat would be to use a reciprocating steam engine coupled to a genset and poke the electricity back into the mains free of charge -without telling anyone. You could lose 300kW of heat that way, and they are still around in the second-hand / vintage market


    It is not a serious suggestion of course, but I have yet to see a better way of 'invisibly' losing 300kW.

  • I am not trying to be a hard nosed critic here, but we need to keep all evidence in mind. Tossing up "theoretical" possibilities does little to solve the problem or gain credence. Someone should simply ask Rossi! What was being made? He does not have to tell the customer's name or anything! His lawsuit, it will be his job to present the facts.


    Yes, it does matter what was being made.


    It either must be a process that requires 100C+ water/steam or the test is fake. That flow meter in its normal range of operation could handle much greater flows easily keeping the water from changing phase. The only argument for producing a phase change is that it was required by the customer. AR must produce the customer if he has any hope of salvaging the credibility of the test.

  • In the discussion at e-cat world, Mats Lewan wrote:


    Quote

    Ironically, Jed Rothwell who insists that 'a megawatt of heat in that space would have killed everyone, yet people say it was no warmer than any normal building,' covers exactly this kind of process in his pdf-book 'Cold Fusion and the Future' (see below).


    Not only that! In the excerpt below he also describes the process of making oil from organic waste, which Rossi worked with in the 80's, and which some people still claim was fraud.


    Then he goes on to suggest this is a thermal depolymerization plant. I wrote a response which is presently embargoed. This shows how far off the deep end he has gone:


    Quote

    Depolymerization plant efficiency is usually around 40%. Meaning 60% of the heat is waste heat. There is not slightest chance 600 kW was released in this building. Also, depolymerization plants are the size of city block. You cannot hide one in this facility. A plant that uses 1 MW of process heat would require a large truckload of materials every day, such as turkey slaughtering plant offal or sewage. It is not legal to process such materials in a commercial warehouse.


    As noted here, this would be physically impossible and illegal.


    Also, the working temperature at these plants is 500°C.

  • Quote

    You could lose 300kW of heat that way,


    You'd only get theoretical potential 30% efficiency if the steam was at high pressure, which Rossi denies, or if your waste heat sink is quite low in temperature, not I think feasible. What is this 30% efficiency generator running from 100C and 30C?


    I should modify what I said previously. The Carnot limit does not apply the same way if the 100C steam is under very high pressure because you also have a pressure differential from which power can be derived. You get higher possible efficiency then. I think (perhaps I'm wrong). But not very high!

  • You lose 30% because you have a cold water spray condenser on the steam engine- which dumps probably 50KW down the drain and you should get 25% out of the generator. The generators themselves are pretty efficient - and this is not a power station so we can ignore things like boiler efficiency to get a final figure. The slightly damp nature of the alleged steam is a problem of course- but then again, I might remind you that I am being frivolous - something Madame often chides me for.

  • Speaking of condensers - how much steam can possibly flow through a DN40 pipe when the absolute pressure at one end is 1 atm and any value lower than that (lets say it was a really efficient condenser or even that pressure was 0 for the fun of it) at the other end?

  • You lose 30% because you have a cold water spray condenser on the steam engine


    A Newcomen Atmospheric Engine! A marvelous machine. They built a one-third scale model at U. Manchester and found it was more complicated and clever than modern people realize. D. Cardwell, p. 123. However, it produces a lot of waste heat.


    Okay, with that machine you spray the cold water in the cylinder, not on it, but it is just as likely a Newcomen Engine as anything. The steam is close to 1 atm, and it does not push the piston. That's the point. Very safe low pressure operation.


    http://www.egr.msu.edu/~lira/supp/steam/

    (When I say the steam "does not push" I mean the power stroke comes from condensing steam rather than expanding steam.)

  • Speaking of condensers - how much steam can possibly flow through a DN40 pipe when the absolute pressure at one end is 1 atm and any value lower than that (lets say it was a really efficient condenser or even that pressure was 0 for the fun of it) at the other end?


    That's what Murray wanted to know. How much, and how fast. See Exhibit 5:


  • I've read that. But I doubt 1 atm pressure difference (the maximum pressure difference possible) on two ends of a 6 meter DN40 pipe is enough to account for the alleged 1398 kg/h. What would the density have been? Maybe .6 kg/m3 or so?

  • Nobody? Ok. Lets make this easier. Lets say there was no pipe of 6m length and lets assume that the e-cat was installed on ISIS and leaked its steam directly from the 1 bar outlet next to the reaction chamber into space through a perfectly round, perfectly straight pipe stub with 40 mm diameter and 60 mm length. How much steam can it possibly leak? The answer is about 1170 kg/h. So even if Murray drastically misjudged the pipe's length by two orders of magnitude and even if the pressure at the receiving end would have been zero (which is categorically impossible), the maximum possible flow rate would have been LESS than what Rossi claims he delivered to the customer. So maybe Rossi invented a pipe which has a much, much smaller outer diameter than inner diameter (patent pending). I'm sure e-catworld will come up with an explanation which is at least as likely as that in no time.

  • So maybe Rossi invented a pipe which has a much, much smaller outer diameter than inner diameter (patent pending).


    I love it!


    I often mix up "OD" and "ID" pipe designations. I have to stop, make a circle with my fingers, and sound it out. "Let's see . . . O is Outer . . ."


    I'm sure e-catworld will come up with an explanation which is at least as likely as that in no time.


    That's nothing for them. A mere bagatelle.

  • Hi all


    Note who makes the compact equipment to do exactly this, and note their requirements are an exact match for the E-Cat 1 MW plant.


    http://davyprotech.com/what-we…/reforming/specification/
    http://davyprotech.com/what-we…er-tropsch/specification/
    http://davyprotech.com/what-we…ft-process/specification/


    Note also that the process uses the sponges reported as being seen in the customers plant.


    Game set and match I think.


    http://davyprotech.com/what-we…cification/#tab-content-2


    Kind Regards walker

  • Brilliant find, Walker. Now all you need is a temperature doubler or tripler from radio shack, a couple of invisible, silent vans carrying lots of stuff to and from the plant unnoticed, the equipment dealing with the waste heat, a non-existent permit from the Florida authorities allowing all of that to go on in a warehouse for low hazard storage and the already mentioned magic pipe with the huuuge inner diameter and you have yourself a totally valid theory.

  • Note also that the process uses the sponges reported as being seen in the customers plant.


    Game set and match I think.


    Yes, sure. No problem fitting one of these into the warehouse:



    Caption: Compact reformer in Alaska


    This is from:


    xxxhttp://www.jmprotech.com/images-uploaded/files/JM Methanol Brochure.pdf

  • Note also that the process uses the sponges reported as being seen in the customers plant.


    Game set and match I think.


    Kind Regards walker


    An interesting thought but....


    One still has to account for the regulations and permits. This type of process is explosive. We have had no "leaks" or other evidence that there was dangerous product being made
    in the facility. One normally does not make dangerous product in a warehouse and public commercial setting. (But then Rossi certainly is not normal) I seriously doubt that permits would have been issued for this location for this type of product. No game here.


    One still has to account for the storage and handling of liquid gas. This is no small feat and also requires significant permits. There is nothing in available photos that show any type of holding tanks for liquefied gas in any type of volume. There is no signage seen warning of explosive materials. There has been no testimony or leaks that indicate this type of storage, which requires significant fire control and accidental spill control. No set here I think.


    IH has clearly stated there was no customer. IH has resources available from Cherokee. Woodford invested in them. It is highly unlikely that Jones Day would be so remiss as not to contact
    Johnson Matthey to obtain confirmation that they were the customer. J. Matthey is not going to deny or withhold a simple yes or no to them. Especially when they know they will simply get subpoenaed anyway. IH would not have filed the "no customer" as a piece of their formal answer if they had not done due diligence on it. That is what Jones Day gets paid the big bucks for! No match here.


    Is the SRM theoretically possible? Yes. I suppose. Is it supported by any type of evidence? No. Is it even logically compatible that this type of process would be setup for a one year test of an unknown nuclear power source? I find it a very, very far stretch.


    This is the problem, people keep speculating about these remote theories. I ask you to send Rossi an email and simply ask him! He is portrayed as a very good and amicable fellow! Surely he will answer a simple question from a supporter. He does not have to break any NDA or disclose a customer. He could simply answer the plant was used in a SMR process. Then we would know. Please ask him. (I am not a member of the JONP list and he would not answer me anyway. :/ )


    (A side note... why do people keep demanding that IH give an answer or provide absolute proof and not expect anything from Rossi? It is his lawsuit after all. IH is innocent until proven
    guilty in the court of law)


    So based upon known facts, not conjecture, the game has not even started yet, much less won!

  • Not so Walker, I'm afraid. Much as I would like to to be the case these various systems require high temperatures to work at all. There is a modified FT reactor designed to turn scrap car tyres into Diesel just outside Leipzig - which I visited around 2010. It makes 2 tons of high-sulphur oil a day (so fairly big) but requires 6x160kW microwave heaters- by coincidence almost a Megawatt. The reaction temperature in this machine is kept down by using special modified Zeolite catalysts, but even so the optimum temperature for conversion is around 625C and most of the back end of the system involves cooling stuff down rather than heating it up. The shredded tyres are sprayed with water and enter the process wet btw, so no steam is required


    Rossi used a similar device at his Petroldragon plant, so he knows plenty about it. The big problem is that even though these machines exist and are manufactured by JM, the energy balance and operating temperatures required are no help to him at all. They still produce vast amounts of waste heat - and take up a fair amount of space.


    I have zero wish to see the Rossi dream end in tears, but this idea is tbh a real delusion,

  • Nobody? Ok. Lets make this easier. Lets say there was no pipe of 6m length and lets assume that the e-cat was installed on ISIS and leaked its steam directly from the 1 bar outlet next to the reaction chamber into space through a perfectly round, perfectly straight pipe stub with 40 mm diameter and 60 mm length. How much steam can it possibly leak? The answer is about 1170 kg/h. So even if Murray drastically misjudged the pipe's length by two orders of magnitude and even if the pressure at the receiving end would have been zero (which is categorically impossible), the maximum possible flow rate would have been LESS than what Rossi claims he delivered to the customer. So maybe Rossi invented a pipe which has a much, much smaller outer diameter than inner diameter (patent pending). I'm sure e-catworld will come up with an explanation which is at least as likely as that in no time.


    I did a quick model of a Rossi's magic pipe with a smaller outer diameter, unfortunately I cannot render it in photo-realistic mode as it is an impossibility of course. Hey Rossi, you have permission to use this diagram in court if you wish, you are gonna need all the help you can get! lol

  • How did he see the hot water in the drains, with x-ray vision?


    He is a licensed Environmental Inspector for Dade County, Florida. I am not even sure if Doral is in Dade but (a) he knows his way around a drain and (b) can go where he likes and rip up manhole covers or whatever. (c) While he was there he took those pictures of the Doral unit -front and back - that have been doing the rounds ever since. BTW, checking the drains was his idea- it had never occurred to me.


    If I can find his email I will post it here.

  • He is a licensed Environmental Inspector for Dade County, Florida. I am not even sure if Doral is in Dade but (a) he knows his way around a drain and (b) can go where he likes and rip up manhole covers or whatever. (c) While he was there he took those pictures of the Doral unit -front and back - that have been doing the rounds ever since. BTW, checking the drains was his idea- it had never occurred to me.


    If I can find his email I will post it here.


    Rossi's unit must share a common drain with others in Rossi's block. How does the inspector know what waste water is produced by Rossi? How can he tell what temperature mixing has occurred in the combined waste stream? Where is that man hole at?

  • How did he see the hot water in the drains, with x-ray vision?


    As I pointed out previously, you cannot get that much water into the building. You have to cool the water down to 60 deg C, which takes a tremendous amount of water. The 2" water service pipe listed in the city Water Dept. is not big enough. Also, why would Rossi hide the waste heat? What would be the point? There can be no secret IP in ventilation equipment.


    http://codes.iccsafe.org/app/book/content/PDF/2001 Florida Codes/Plumbing/Chapter 7_Sanitary Drainage.pdf


    No company has a water-cooled factory chiller that would do this. Chillers are evaporative. See:


    http://www.airedale.com/web/Pr…ter-Cooled-AC-Chiller.htm


    I am sure none are designed to cool the water down to 60 deg C and dump it into the sewer. That would be an insane design. No manufacturer would modify equipment to do anything so crazy. You would have to use an air cooler, outdoors, which is not something you can hide. See:


    http://www.airedale.com/web/Pr…-Free-Cooling-Chiller.htm

  • Actually Compact Methane reformers now come in sub container sizes. And their input is methane from the town supply. As to their output it is gas, it can be compressed or sent down pipes


    Yeah? It still would not fit. It is not invisible. No one saw anything like that, or any pipes or tanks. It would still be illegal to install, and terribly dangerous in this unventilated space. Figure 1 shows it installed outdoors. It would still require feedstock and trucks and traffic. And I doubt it works at 102 deg C.


    It also takes a minimum 2 bar of pressure.


    This is a fantasy.

  • Rossi's unit must share a common drain with others in Rossi's block. How does the inspector know what waste water is produced by Rossi? How can he tell what temperature mixing has occurred in the combined waste stream? Where is that man hole at?





    The 7861 address which is located adjacent to the Rossini Marble Supply (7859) is occupied by a "JM Products". Nothing useful is available on-line about these guys other than they are associated with "JC Chemical Supply".

  • Rossi's unit must share a common drain with others in Rossi's block. How does the inspector know what waste water is produced by Rossi?


    Believe me, this would take 10 minutes to find out. I have seen enough plumbing problems at my house and office to know that. It takes a plumber no time to figure out which toilet is flooding or where all the water is coming from in an office building. If someone started dumping water above 60 deg C down the sewer, the city people would be there within a few days and they would shut the place down. If someone dumped as much water as Rossi would need, people in other suites in the building would notice the toilets do not work and there is no water pressure. They would tell the landlord. (Actually he could not get enough water no matter what.)


    More to the point, why would Rossi go to the trouble to hide the waste heat?!? It proves his claims are real. He would get $89 million by demonstrating the cooling method. It has nothing to do with the supposedly secret IP in the customer site. So why would he take any steps to hide the water (if he uses water cooling) or the air ventilation? That makes no sense. He would showcase it.


    You should address that question instead of evading it. It would be fun to see what kind of ridiculous nonsense you come up with.

  • Walker wrote:

    Hi allIn reply to Jed thank you for that image, remind you of anything anyone?Actually Compact Methane reformers now come in sub container sizes. And their input is methane from the town supply. As to their output it is gas, it can be compressed or sent down pipes http://members.igu.org/html/wg…70_1045844893_15523_1.pdf
    In the immortal words of Buffy the Vampire Slayer "I Win!"Kind Regards walker


    I've never been able to fathom walker's arguments on this thread.


    Walker, you would "win" if you supplied plausible reasons why ALL of the arguments summarised rather glibly as


    Jami wrote:

    Brilliant find, Walker. Now all you need is a temperature doubler or tripler from radio shack, a couple of invisible, silent vans carrying lots of stuff to and from the plant unnoticed, the equipment dealing with the waste heat, a non-existent permit from the Florida authorities allowing all of that to go on in a warehouse for low hazard storage and the already mentioned magic pipe with the huuuge inner diameter and you have yourself a totally valid theory.


    DID NOT APPLY. Just one of those arguments standing and you lose.


    That is disjunctive logic => you lose unless you can address all the arguments
    You are arguing you win based on having found just one link in the necessary logical chain. (Which may be disputed, but i'll give it to you).


    What about all the other links?


    I can only suppose you are incapable or unwilling to read pipe diameter/pressure/velocity tables and calculate from that what Rossi's claimed flowrate would be as steam.


    Or, that you think such inconsistency does not matter as long as a RossiSays has some associative link (as you have posted) to a truth?


    I'm curious, so I'd really like you to explain how you rationalise your statements.