Thermal Analysis of the Production Plant Process in the 1MW test in Doral, Florida (GiveADogABone)

    • Official Post

    Not so Walker, I'm afraid. Much as I would like to to be the case these various systems require high temperatures to work at all. There is a modified FT reactor designed to turn scrap car tyres into Diesel just outside Leipzig - which I visited around 2010. It makes 2 tons of high-sulphur oil a day (so fairly big) but requires 6x160kW microwave heaters- by coincidence almost a Megawatt. The reaction temperature in this machine is kept down by using special modified Zeolite catalysts, but even so the optimum temperature for conversion is around 625C and most of the back end of the system involves cooling stuff down rather than heating it up. The shredded tyres are sprayed with water and enter the process wet btw, so no steam is required


    Rossi used a similar device at his Petroldragon plant, so he knows plenty about it. The big problem is that even though these machines exist and are manufactured by JM, the energy balance and operating temperatures required are no help to him at all. They still produce vast amounts of waste heat - and take up a fair amount of space.


    I have zero wish to see the Rossi dream end in tears, but this idea is tbh a real delusion,

    Quote from Jami

    Nobody? Ok. Lets make this easier. Lets say there was no pipe of 6m length and lets assume that the e-cat was installed on ISIS and leaked its steam directly from the 1 bar outlet next to the reaction chamber into space through a perfectly round, perfectly straight pipe stub with 40 mm diameter and 60 mm length. How much steam can it possibly leak? The answer is about 1170 kg/h. So even if Murray drastically misjudged the pipe's length by two orders of magnitude and even if the pressure at the receiving end would have been zero (which is categorically impossible), the maximum possible flow rate would have been LESS than what Rossi claims he delivered to the customer. So maybe Rossi invented a pipe which has a much, much smaller outer diameter than inner diameter (patent pending). I'm sure e-catworld will come up with an explanation which is at least as likely as that in no time.


    I did a quick model of a Rossi's magic pipe with a smaller outer diameter, unfortunately I cannot render it in photo-realistic mode as it is an impossibility of course. Hey Rossi, you have permission to use this diagram in court if you wish, you are gonna need all the help you can get! lol

    • Official Post
    Quote from axil

    How did he see the hot water in the drains, with x-ray vision?


    He is a licensed Environmental Inspector for Dade County, Florida. I am not even sure if Doral is in Dade but (a) he knows his way around a drain and (b) can go where he likes and rip up manhole covers or whatever. (c) While he was there he took those pictures of the Doral unit -front and back - that have been doing the rounds ever since. BTW, checking the drains was his idea- it had never occurred to me.


    If I can find his email I will post it here.

    Quote from Alan Smith

    He is a licensed Environmental Inspector for Dade County, Florida. I am not even sure if Doral is in Dade but (a) he knows his way around a drain and (b) can go where he likes and rip up manhole covers or whatever. (c) While he was there he took those pictures of the Doral unit -front and back - that have been doing the rounds ever since. BTW, checking the drains was his idea- it had never occurred to me.


    If I can find his email I will post it here.


    Rossi's unit must share a common drain with others in Rossi's block. How does the inspector know what waste water is produced by Rossi? How can he tell what temperature mixing has occurred in the combined waste stream? Where is that man hole at?

    Quote from axil

    How did he see the hot water in the drains, with x-ray vision?


    As I pointed out previously, you cannot get that much water into the building. You have to cool the water down to 60 deg C, which takes a tremendous amount of water. The 2" water service pipe listed in the city Water Dept. is not big enough. Also, why would Rossi hide the waste heat? What would be the point? There can be no secret IP in ventilation equipment.


    http://codes.iccsafe.org/app/book/content/PDF/2001 Florida Codes/Plumbing/Chapter 7_Sanitary Drainage.pdf


    No company has a water-cooled factory chiller that would do this. Chillers are evaporative. See:


    http://www.airedale.com/web/Pr…ter-Cooled-AC-Chiller.htm


    I am sure none are designed to cool the water down to 60 deg C and dump it into the sewer. That would be an insane design. No manufacturer would modify equipment to do anything so crazy. You would have to use an air cooler, outdoors, which is not something you can hide. See:


    http://www.airedale.com/web/Pr…-Free-Cooling-Chiller.htm

    Quote from Walker

    Actually Compact Methane reformers now come in sub container sizes. And their input is methane from the town supply. As to their output it is gas, it can be compressed or sent down pipes


    Yeah? It still would not fit. It is not invisible. No one saw anything like that, or any pipes or tanks. It would still be illegal to install, and terribly dangerous in this unventilated space. Figure 1 shows it installed outdoors. It would still require feedstock and trucks and traffic. And I doubt it works at 102 deg C.


    It also takes a minimum 2 bar of pressure.


    This is a fantasy.

    • Official Post
    Quote from axil

    Rossi's unit must share a common drain with others in Rossi's block. How does the inspector know what waste water is produced by Rossi? How can he tell what temperature mixing has occurred in the combined waste stream? Where is that man hole at?





    The 7861 address which is located adjacent to the Rossini Marble Supply (7859) is occupied by a "JM Products". Nothing useful is available on-line about these guys other than they are associated with "JC Chemical Supply".

    Quote from axil

    Rossi's unit must share a common drain with others in Rossi's block. How does the inspector know what waste water is produced by Rossi?


    Believe me, this would take 10 minutes to find out. I have seen enough plumbing problems at my house and office to know that. It takes a plumber no time to figure out which toilet is flooding or where all the water is coming from in an office building. If someone started dumping water above 60 deg C down the sewer, the city people would be there within a few days and they would shut the place down. If someone dumped as much water as Rossi would need, people in other suites in the building would notice the toilets do not work and there is no water pressure. They would tell the landlord. (Actually he could not get enough water no matter what.)


    More to the point, why would Rossi go to the trouble to hide the waste heat?!? It proves his claims are real. He would get $89 million by demonstrating the cooling method. It has nothing to do with the supposedly secret IP in the customer site. So why would he take any steps to hide the water (if he uses water cooling) or the air ventilation? That makes no sense. He would showcase it.


    You should address that question instead of evading it. It would be fun to see what kind of ridiculous nonsense you come up with.

    Quote from Walker

    Hi allIn reply to Jed thank you for that image, remind you of anything anyone?Actually Compact Methane reformers now come in sub container sizes. And their input is methane from the town supply. As to their output it is gas, it can be compressed or sent down pipes http://members.igu.org/html/wg…70_1045844893_15523_1.pdf
    In the immortal words of Buffy the Vampire Slayer "I Win!"Kind Regards walker


    I've never been able to fathom walker's arguments on this thread.


    Walker, you would "win" if you supplied plausible reasons why ALL of the arguments summarised rather glibly as


    Quote from Jami

    Brilliant find, Walker. Now all you need is a temperature doubler or tripler from radio shack, a couple of invisible, silent vans carrying lots of stuff to and from the plant unnoticed, the equipment dealing with the waste heat, a non-existent permit from the Florida authorities allowing all of that to go on in a warehouse for low hazard storage and the already mentioned magic pipe with the huuuge inner diameter and you have yourself a totally valid theory.


    DID NOT APPLY. Just one of those arguments standing and you lose.


    That is disjunctive logic => you lose unless you can address all the arguments
    You are arguing you win based on having found just one link in the necessary logical chain. (Which may be disputed, but i'll give it to you).


    What about all the other links?


    I can only suppose you are incapable or unwilling to read pipe diameter/pressure/velocity tables and calculate from that what Rossi's claimed flowrate would be as steam.


    Or, that you think such inconsistency does not matter as long as a RossiSays has some associative link (as you have posted) to a truth?


    I'm curious, so I'd really like you to explain how you rationalise your statements.

    Quote from stephenrenzz

    I did a quick model of a Rossi's magic pipe with a smaller outer diameter, unfortunately I cannot render it in photo-realistic mode as it is an impossibility of course.


    Maybe not. Perhaps the Tesseract Plumbing Supply Company has something like this in their catalog. Or M. C. Escher & Co.

    Quote from Walker

    And JM make a version that produces a form of Bio Diesel from Methane gas and water via steam


    Does it take a megawatt of steam at 102 deg C? I doubt that such a small machine would. Where does the rest of the heat go? Why is there no ventilation?

    Quote from Alan Smith

    The 7861 address which is located adjacent to the Rossini Marble Supply (7859) is occupied by a "JM Products". Nothing useful is available on-line about these guys other than they are associated with "JC Chemical Supply".




    When did the inspector check out the Rossi site, after the test had completed and all the equipment was removed? There was no date on the e-mail.

    Coming at this steam flow thing from the other end: the pressure difference across the 6 m DN40 pipe required for Rossi's claimed throughput would have to be about 3.5 bar. Since the receiving end can't be below zero, there would have been at least 3.5 bar in the boiler (which of course would mean no steam at 102 C but only at 140 C which means there was no steam which means if Rossi moved anything through that pipe at all, it was dirty water).

    Quote from THHuxley

    [quote=Walker]
    I'm curious, so I'd really like you to explain how you rationalise your statements.


    This response is not meant to imply Walker or anyone else.... it is simply an observation that I have been pondering for several months now.
    "How do people rationalize their positions...? "


    I have read some articles, done a bit of searching and thought for some time about this. My conclusion is that people's brains are physically "wired" differently. This is not an insult nor
    to say that one is better than the other. But simply that people really do not "think the same way". That what is obvious to one is completely void to another.


    Some examples that many take for granted but I believe are fully supportive of my theory. I play musical instruments. I actually play many different kinds, mostly stringed, such as guitar, mandolin, bass and yes.... even the banjo. (I am not ashamed to admit it! :P Happiest instrument on the planet!) Yet there are many who cannot play a note. Not because they have not practiced or tried, but they simply cannot do it. Their brains are not wired for it. Some people can do mathematics with ease while others struggle mightily. Others can paint wonderful pictures with ink, water color and oils while others can hardly draw a stick man. Religion is another area where this is observed. Some have great faith with very little real understanding while others cannot believe without clear, discernable facts. I am not talking about blind faith, but people who have a deep, reality that I do not personally understand. I suppose that while I can play music, my "faith gene" is lacking.


    Anyway, as I read the forums, I see people make posts that I read and I am really astounded! As Mary Yugo might say "HOW COULD THEY?!" Yes, there is stubbornness in this world. Yes there is pride. There are various levels of people knowing "down deep" but unwilling to acknowledge things. However, I am convinced, that many people simply do not think like me and I do not think like them and I mean in a physical, neuron firing way! Not that I am better or worse, just different.


    Not everyone can play music. Not everyone can do quantum physics. Not every one can play competitive level chess. Not everyone can have deep faith. Our brains are wired differently.
    What seems obvious to me is not always obvious to another. I believe it is remarkable how much this difference extends into our social interactions and view of events. After all, there are
    PLENTY of people who will vote for Hillary and possibly almost as many who will vote for Trump. Try to rationalize that chasm!


    To re-emphasize, I am not stating that one is smart and the other dumb. Not that one is moral and the other immoral. Not that one is better and the other less. Just different.


    By the way, about music.... if you are canoeing down a remote river and you hear banjo music.... paddle faster! =O

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