NASA: EM drive paper to be published in peer reviewed journal

  • mindguard are a social phenomenon, emerging from a groupthink.
    when the group want to shutdown dissenters that endanger future prediction of the victims, some people self-appoint themselves as mindguards, knight of the True Truth that have to be protected from Evil, and they expect some return unconsciously.


    Roland Bénabou : The Economics of Motivated Beliefs


    Nice, thanks.


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    Ive read good book by Broad & Wade, and they have been quite harsh on cold fusion.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betrayers_of_the_Truth ... 1982, obviously not about cold fusion. However, Broad and Wade have often been cited by people thinking it applies to cold fusion. I'm sure it does, to some extent, as, really, to all scientific fields, but the citations I have seen are essentially clueless about the actual history of cold fusion. Fraud has not been a major part of the story. What can be asserted not uncommonly is possibly unwarranted -- or premature -- conclusions from data. There has been sloppy experimental work. I've seen fraud alleged with the MIT "Negative replication." I think that was not likely fraud, but some severe clumsiness in handling and presenting data. (It is extremely unlikely that the MIT work actually created XE, they did not have high enough loading, by far, so that elevated "baseline" would have been some kind of artifact, probably. What does show in that was the rush to judgment that McKubre described in his Current Science article last year.)


    Searching for this, I came across http://www.ise.ncsu.edu/jwilson/colloq.html, a "doctoral colloquium address," whatever that is. It starts with a quotation of Feynman on Cargo Cult Science. Feynman was actually fierce on what might be called "Stuffed Shirt Science," people who simply swallowed orthodox views, and that is part of what he was referring to in Cargo Cult Science, much more than to fringe believers or lunatics.


    His warning is to not fool yourself, "because you are the easiest person to fool." And then others quote them to claim that others are fooling themselves. The idea that the writer might be fooling himself is absent.


    This fellow cites the cold fusion history, entirely through a single authority, Huizenga, 1993. He's obviously clueless about the full history, and Huizenga was obviously under the heavy influence of a belief as to how things are. It's not that Huizenga did not have some valid criticisms, it is his expectations and theoretical explanations that are a problem. He did not know what he was doing, he had missed entirely the implications of "unknown nuclear reaction" and treated cold fusion as if it were merely the known d-d fusion reaction, but in some unexpected condition. Which was, then, and remains, highly unlikely. Huizenga remained interested in cold fusion, if I'm correct, for a long time, attending the conferences. But his mental flexibility was apparently fading, and that happens to some of us.


    The writer goes over the Langmuir criteria for pathological science. Some of these can be presented to apply to cold fusion, but not most of them. And the writer is ontologically naive. For a more balanced view on "pathological science," see Bauer, ‘Pathological Science’ is not Scientific Misconduct (nor is it pathological), http://www.hyle.org/journal/issues/8-1/bauer.htm


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    same for Lewis who recently... forget it.

    Well, I don't know which Lewis to forget.


    By the way, Bauer gets some things not quite right.


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    a committee empaneled by the US Department of Energy concluded that there was nothing worth pursuing in these claims.


    Not quite! But that is a very common idea.The introduction to the conclusions:


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    Ordinarily, new scientific discoveries are claimed to be consistent and reproducible; as a result, if the experiments are not complicated, the discovery can usually be confirmed or disproved in a few months. The claims of cold fusion, however, are unusual in that even the strongest proponents of cold fusion assert that the experiments, for unknown reasons, are not consistent and reproducible at the present time. However, even a single short but valid cold fusion period would be revolutionary. As a result, it is difficult convincingly to resolve all cold fusion claims since, for example, any good experiment that fails to find cold fusion can be discounted as merely not working for unknown reasons. Likewise the failure of a theory to account for cold fusion can be discounted on the grounds that the correct explanation and theory has not been provided. Consequently, with the many contradictory existing claims it is not possible at this time to state categorically that all the claims for cold fusion have been convincingly either proved or disproved. Nonetheless, on balance, the Panel has reached the following conclusions and recommendations.


    and then there are some specific conclusions:


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    Based on the examination of published reports, reprints, numerous communications to the Panel and several site visits, the Panel concludes that the experimental results of excess heat from calorimetric cells reported to date do not present convincing evidence that useful sources of energy will result from the phenomena attributed to cold fusion.


    Here it is, 27 years later, and that is still a reasonable position. "To date" and "useful sources of energy will result." What I say is that it is possible.


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    The Panel recommends against any special funding for the investigation of phenomena attributed to cold fusion. Hence, we recommend against the establishment of special programs or research centers to develop cold fusion.


    The Panel is sympathetic toward modest support for carefully focused and cooperative experiments within the present funding system.


    That was a decision that the evidence for cold fusion was not yet strong enough to justify a major program.


    Now, the problem: what they actually recommended was never done by the DoE. The 2004 made essentially the same recommendation, and then there was no follow-up. Both reports were widely interpreted as rejections. In fact, the 2004 DoE came very close to a majority view that the anomalous heat was real. It was evenly split. The 2004 review was mangled by how it was set up, but still it came to that conclusion, which was much stronger than the 1989 position.


    So why is it popular opinion, oft-repeated, that the reviews were so negative? Well, it's obvious. It agrees with personal views, for pseudoskeptics, and it agrees with "believers" claiming the whole thing was unfair.


    It is rare that anyone actually studies the reviews in detail. I think most of us prefer to believe whatever we want to believe, and isn't that obvious around here?


    My training is in ontology (including how world-views develop and how to come to be stuck with fixed reactions) and the technology of personal and social transformation. I was only recently trained, beginning in 2011. It's been quite a journey.

  • Somemore info on EMdrive


    The title is: "Measurement of Impulsive Thrust from a Closed Radio Frequency Cavity in Vacuum"


    "Thrust data in mode shape TM212 at less than 8*10^6 Torr environment, from forward, reverse and null tests suggests that the system is consistently performing with a thrust to power ratio of 1.2 +/- 0.1 mN/Kw (*)"





    http://cannae.com/press-release-from-cannae/


    Another EMdrive provider


    • Official Post

    Cannae announce as I understand is a call for funding.
    However if the leaks on Nasa EmDrive are confirmed, it may help them be funded, even if their theory is refuted by Nasa EW early tests (it worked despite it should not according to Fetta - Shawyer and McCulloch however agree with results).


    I have a good feeling, not because of experimental results who need some confirmation and are in the dangerous "artifact" zone, but because the law that are broken (CoM) are supported by a theory (GR) with 99.99% error in some case, so some update is required if you don't accept fudge factor (dark matter &energy).

  • thrust to power ratio of 1.2 +/- 0.1 mN/Kw


    The only place I can find this snippet is in this Reddit link, quoting an earlier post by Rodal that was apparently since removed for reasons that aren't explained. It will be interesting to see the paper. The same authors also wrote this theoretical paper, apparently dabbling in both experiment and theory. Harold White, lead author of this paper and presumably the one to come out, appears to be the one proposing the Alcubierre drive. Fairly or not, I am very wary of someone both proposing a theory on the cutting edge and also leading experiments to validate cutting-edge experimental phenomena. Another such case would be Holmlid. I suppose if the experimental phenomenon is cutting-edge enough, there may be only a few around willing to invest time in testing it, so one has to make some allowances for this kind of thing.


    1.2 +/- 0.1 mN/Kw sounds like a very inefficient ratio. Is it feasible to use this as a source of thrust for station-keeping a satellite? What supplies the power?

  • Fairly or not, I am very wary of someone both proposing a theory on the cutting edge and also leading experiments to validate that theory or other cutting-edge theories. Another such case would be Holmlid. I suppose if the theory is challenging enough, there may be only a few around willing to invest time in testing it, so one has to make some allowances for this kind of thing.


    Yes, this is always a danger in science. There is too little awareness of this fact that taps into a bigger issue. It has to do with commitment to a theory based on the amount of work one has done in the area. It also happens on the purely research side. Imagine putting a lot of work into developing theory, performing experiments, and so forth. Just by doing this, you increase your own propensity for bias and theoretical advocacy rather than objectivity. I think a person can do it, but you really have to understand this danger and question your own objectivity and commitment to theory rather than commitment to objective empiricism. You must commit to keeping the process as free of bias as you can from start to finish. It is not easy.

  • I'm on the NASA forum also with no intention of building an EM drive. I did contribute an idea for easy silver soldering of copper: use friction deposition by rubbing a chunk of silver on the copper before silver soldering. This works very well.


    I also contributed the concept of making a quartz form upon which would be deposited a silver or copper coating with the goal of making a very Q cavity with dielectric.


    There is plenty of smoke in the EM drive area. The aforementioned paper might be the fire.


    For a long time I have had the opinion that interstellar missions are premature at our present stage of technological development. With EM drive and LENR, I'm rapidly changing position.

  • WOW!


    That's cool, a test in space. That is what everyone asked for. Very nice!


    Absolutely. Thrust on a cubesat would be an excellent and sensitive test. You could vary the trust with a specific signature and look at the orbital variation (with very high accuracy). There would be noise from solar wind and micro-meteorites, but that can be measured and excluded.


    The proposed test is in the future.


    I predict one of three things:


    (a) It works. Full details of a compelling documented validation are published, and become big mainstream news.


    (b) It does not work. Either we hear nothing, or a forthcoming and honest negative result, or a negative result spun as "could be positive".


    (c) They never get enough money to do the test. But they could maybe crowd-fund it.


    (a) is much more likely than (b). The artifacts for em-drive are many, the results so far have been artifact-level, and the theory does not stack up. But that does not make it impossible, just highly unlikely with no good evidence. Well conducted cubesat tests would provide that.


    Note that for this stuff a good paper, whether published on arxiv (or even vixra) would create massive interest amongst scientists. You may reckon that the majority are uninterested in new stuff (though I'd disagree) but there are certainly some who are interested. As we see from the LHC anything that is anomalous is manna from heaven to the theory types.


    OTOH an experimental paper with potential artifacts not properly eliminated is not going to get published unless lucky. What is the point? They could always put such on vixra and let it get critiqued for free. If it is submitted to journals it will get higher quality critiques with the rejection, and those could feed into another experiment with better methodology. In reality for the claimed levels of thrust, high RF fields, and high drive powers I think it would be very difficult to do an earth test that did not suffer artifacts. So not likely earth experimental results would change minds. Rightly, too.


    Why do I not rate em-drive?


    well, just imagine you want to generate artifacts. What do you need?
    (1) An effect of very low magnitude where no theory predicts what that magnitude is. Check.
    (2) Very high power RF radiation that will interact with everything in site and leak all containment. Check
    (3) Power high enough (vs microwave oven) that it will allow thermal effects as well. Check.

  • Photonic laser thrusters actually work, and generate 3.5mN from 500W stimulus, better than this. However they are limited by diffraction (and maybe other things) so will not work over very long distances.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photonic_laser_thruster



    Straight laser pushed sails (without using ablation or hot air propulsion), which also work, will generate much less thrust, maybe of order 1000 times less.


    Regards, THH

  • I also contributed the concept of making a quartz form upon which would be deposited a silver or copper coating with the goal of making a very Q cavity with dielectric.


    Is silver commonly used in the case of the EM Drive? I'm trying to keep track of materials apart from copper that are used for this class of device.

  • In reality for the claimed levels of thrust, high RF fields, and high drive powers I think it would be very difficult to do an earth test that did not suffer artifacts. So not likely earth experimental results would change minds. Rightly, too.


    Perhaps this is being too pessimistic? I'm willing to bet there are earthbound tests that will be able to validate (or falsify) these things to the satisfaction of the scientific community, unless they start sliding off into fringe land, in which case a whole set of sociological dynamics will come into play to confuse matters. LIGO reported detecting gravity waves on earth, which will have been very small signals in a huge sea of noise, so perhaps these things can be rigorously tested on earth.


    Photonic laser thrusters actually work, and generate 3.5mN from 500W stimulus, better than this. However they are limited by diffraction (and maybe other things) so will not work over very long distances.
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photonic_laser_thruster


    Straight laser pushed sails (without using ablation or hot air propulsion), which also work, will generate much less thrust, maybe of order 1000 times less.


    These devices apparently work within the same range of operating parameters (including input power) as the EM Drive (or maybe order 1000 times less thrust). Presumably it's been possible to validate them on earth; or am I mistaken?

  • Spending a little time with the data table, I performed some correlation analysis and regression. The regression analysis shows two significant contributions to the explanation of the output force (large and small cavity diameter). There is more force when the large diameter is larger and small diameter is smaller. I want to add more variables into the mix, but it is interesting that input power does not appear to contribute significantly in a multiple-regression context. There is a small positive correlation between input power and thrust (.14).

  • Quote

    I'm willing to bet there are earthbound tests that will be able to validate (or falsify) these things to the satisfaction of the scientific community, unless they start sliding off into fringe land, in which case a whole set of sociological dynamics will come into play to confuse matters. LIGO reported detecting gravity waves on earth, which will have been very small signals in a huge sea of noise, so perhaps these things can be rigorously tested on earth.


    Well, it is supremely difficult in this case. Any em interaction with an external object will generate em induced thrust, and it is very difficult to reduce these to zero.


    I'm not saying it can't be done. Just that you'd need a lot of care to remove artifacts and therefore a typical experiment would rightly not be believed.


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    These devices apparently work within the same range of operating parameters (including input power) as the EM Drive (or maybe order 1000 times less thrust). Presumably it's been possible to validate them on earth; or am I mistaken?


    If you can measure the radiant flux (easy), in both cases the force is a simple application of well-known theory. We don't normally validate such theory when using it to make indirect measurements, so I'd expect not.


    But in any case the situation is much better here. The em radiation used (near-visible light) is much more easily blockable with very high levels of isolation than microwaves.

  • I am surprised that no one is comparing this to the Wright bros before the first flight
    yet. This technology may or may not work. But due to the Earths magnetic fields (artifacts) and leakage (artifacts) and thermal(artifacts) and power input (artifacts) there are many variables that will affect it. So far it has held up on Earth in a vacuum. It also has a core community much like LENR (and some overlap). People are skeptical that it is pathological science. It may well be. But
    that just means to me that the proof must be extraordinary. In order to be accepted by mainstream it will needs to address the artifacts. Getting it out of the earths gravity and magnetic field and addressing the other artifacts is a good start.
    There is currently several theories (well multiple ones).
    Currently my favorite is MiHsc but Shawyers or anyone that comes up with the why and how we are seeing what we are seeing. Once in orbit even if it works it will still have an uphill battle to be accepted as the test will generate new questions about artifacts.


    /I get paid by my LENR masters by the artifact word count.

  • Once in orbit even if it works it will still have an uphill battle to be accepted as the test will generate new questions about artifacts.

    If a even number of identical satellites were placed into orbit close together, half powered and half not, then the ones that remain in orbit over a extended time might show that all things being equal, the artifacts were overcome by the drive and the satellites without the drive fell from orbit.

  • Quote from Rigel: “Once in orbit even if it works it will still have an uphill battle to be accepted as the test will generate new questions about artifacts.”If a even number of identical satellites were placed into orbit close together, half powered…


    This shows a misunderstanding of what are artifacts, and how this test would work. The satellite orbital deviations would be tiny (typically) which is why this is a very sensitive test. The correct exact orbit of any satellite can be calulated. I don't claim it is easy, because you have to track many different massive objects in the solar system, but it is not difficult either and it is done very regularly. GPS relies on this being done to great precision.


    If there are deviations from GR predictions for the orbit then the artifacts to consider would be:


    (1) common flux from solar wind and micrometeorites. I guess surface area/mass would be relevant here and therefore small sats more naturally wobbly than big ones by this ratio. It is calculable.


    (2) Gas emission from the satellite. Obviously, deliberately or unintentionally, that can change orbit (and is used for this in satellites). It would not be difficult to rule this out. In principle there might be some outgassing which is temperature or local em field related, so this is a real potential artifact source, but it does not seem too difficult to knock on the head. After all there can only be a finite supply of entrapped gas.


    (3) Variation in interaction with solar wind due to local em fields. The idea here is that a magnetic field from the satellite would interact with the solar wind over a significant area and provide thrust. This is a real issue, and it would correlate with em drive "on", but I'm sure that there is both theoretical and empirical data from which its magnitude could be bounded.


    of these (3) looks the most problematic and it is not helped by "control" satellites unless these are engineered to have identical external em fields.


    Regards, THH


    PS - (4). Just for fun. Malicious emdrive scammers shine a very high power laser at the satellite to move it. Given that the claimed emdrive effect from tiny sats would be very small (only watts of power I guess) this perhaps needs to be ruled out? But maybe anyone clever enough to guide a laser to hit such a sat, and with resources enough to make a highly focussed laser over that distance, would not be likely to perpetuate an emdrive scam...

  • If there are deviations from GR predictions for the orbit then the artifacts to consider would be:


    What is needed is a baseline of the behavior of satellites once in orbit. That baseline will set expectations for what is expected and what is unexpected deviation from orbital trajectories. That is knowledge that satellite engineers will have. Our speculation about possible sources of error will have been in vain if those sources of error are orders of magnitude too small to have an effect.

  • Dear Ethan,


    It looks likely that a peer reviewed paper on the EMdrive will soon be published in the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics Journal of Propulsion and Power.


    Do you have any opinions or speculations about this subject that you can express before the paper is presented?


    What will be the impact on the science community if the EMdrive paper is positive?


  • I would prefer to see efforts initially spent on optimizing the earth-bound EM Drive to improve the signal-to-noise ratio. The superconducting model was being contemplated in the 2006 paper, and the reviewer encouraged this course. According to the theory of operation, using a superconducting internal surface of the cone frustum, Q can be significantly boosted, with a corresponding boost in thrust. The engineering challenges are, of course, greater. But if they can achieve such a design (and perhaps they already have--10 years since that paper was written), here on Earth, where it is easier to run the experiment and gather the data, then efforts should be shifted to space.

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