Randell Mills GUT - Who can do the calculations?

  • Quote

    Mills only gets a COP of 3. That is not competitive when Rossi is now getting 300.

    Axil, like a lot of believers, refuses to recognize the difference between a claim, even the most idiotic of claims, and a fact. Neither Mills nor Rossi has ever properly demonstrated that they get a COP (mistaken name for power ratio) of more than zero, squat, zip, nada, nothing. Their claims are worth about the same as my claims for my high power pink invisible flying unicorns and for much the same reasons.

  • What seems like good evidence is not that unless a lot more work is done. The evidence presented does not look promising for that to work out, but in any case in the absence of that work there is no reason to expect Mills' theory to be physical.

    I really liked your post, but you have to explain this last sentence. Mills just uses Newtons laws, Maxwells equations and special relativity for his derivations. It is all build up upon these accepted postulates. QM needs a lot more postulates. Even today many physicists complain that QM is more a mathematical than a physical theory. And then someone comes along just using well accepted physical principels and you call it unphysical? That is a bold statement and definitly needs more justification than you gave.

    About your other points. Are you saying that Mills precision is actually worse or that QM is much better than in this picture? I am not aware of a much better technique then Hartree-Fock

    You refer to a modern QM calculation method. How many hand tuned parameters does they need? Mills uses just fundamental physical constants to achieve the shown performance.

  • What will happen if the SunCell reaction is somehow produced by a Holmlid type low orbit process where a trillion trillion muons per second impact those solar cells in a 24/7/356 100% duty cycle.

    Mills is making an assumption that will soon be tested. Producing steam using a heat exchanger is a lot less sensitive than producing electric power using solid state solar cells. Time will tell.

  • About your other points. Are you saying that Mills precision is actually worse or that QM is much better than in this picture? I am not aware of a much better technique then Hartree-Fock

    You refer to a modern QM calculation method. How many hand tuned parameters does they need? Mills uses just fundamental physical constants to achieve the shown performance.

    I found the post quite confusing. What do the plots show? Here is what seems to be a preprint of the Mills article: http://www.millsian.com/papers/modeling paper 072309S.pdf

    The article itself was published: http://physicsessays.org/brows…nd-6-31-g-basis-sets.html

    The chart shown here is not in the preprint. However, on review it appears that the data in Table 75, which shows a list of compounds and then predictions from the three programs (3-21g and 6-31g and the Millsian program, has been plotted against the experimental results. As can be seen, the claim of the paper is that the Millsian predictions are spot on, whereas those of the other programs are very weak.

    Actually, from my own understanding of quantum mechanics, it is inadequate to predict the solid state, at least I heard that from Feynman, ah, so many years ago. However, we might expect simulations to be different, using statistical techniques. Is it?

    If that article is confirmed, which should actually not be difficult, I'd expect, then Mills has a spectacular success for his program. It's important to distinguish this from his other claims. This could give his theory a leg up, but quantum mechanics is entirely spectacular in other ways. Something may be missing from it, and Mills may have found a practical approach that works. It's not proof of a theory, but lends support and credence, and that must be granted.

    There are many people who could confirm or disconfirm the relatively clear claim presented here. What has been done? Often fringe claims lie unexplored, and this is a major problem for any researcher working in the fringes. Holmlid has some fascinating results, but practically no confirmation or disconfirmation. It's a huge problem. It is understandable that many would simply stay away, but this is what I see is missing: cold fusion research suffered a major blow the first time a grad student's PhD thesis was rejected because it was about cold fusion. That must be identified as the poison it is. If the work is quality work, rejecting it because the field is rejected is highly offensive and obviously could lead to an appearance of confirmation bias for the negative opinion: hey, nobody has replicated!

    Sure, if you pull the rug out from under replication efforts, that's expected!

    If no grad student will work on it, this is a self-fulfilling conclusion. This is quite general, it is not just about cold fusion. It is essential that the ability to explore the frontiers of science be encouraged, so that published claims like this are investigated and confirmed or otherwise. Finding negative results is positive work, it is not only confirmation that should be recognized. A careful study that may prevent others from wasting time has done good service to human knowledge.

    Is anyone aware of an independent study about this claim?

    By the way, I am singularly disinterested at this point in theoretical arguments about this. The program is apparently available and so must be the others, so this is a very simple "experiment." First of all there would be the data set presented by Mills. Then one would run analysis on a broader set (dealing with the possibility that Mills cherry-picked his best results.). Almost anyone should be able to do this if they have access to the programs and know how to use them or can learn. The results could easily be publishable.

  • Epimetheus wrote:
    Mills uses just fundamental physical constants to achieve the shown performance.

    I think this is one of the propositions in need of testing rather than simply assuming to be true, which is thankfully an effort you are seeking to help out with.

    While it may seem very simple, this is an unconfirmed claim as to what we have seen here. It is about six years old. Basically, "Mills says" that his predictions are far better than those of others. Has anyone checked, by using the programs?

    I looked on Google Scholar for citations of the article. There were twelve. Eleven were by Mills (with co-authors). The exception:
    Against Point Charges DL Selke - Applied Physics Research, 2015 - ccsenet.org

    The Selke article is attempting to establish a theoretical basis for preferring Mills theory, by considering point charge of the electron. He seems to assume that quantum mechanics requires a point charge. I don't believe he is correct. Rather, sometimes a point charge is assumed for some estimating purposes. However, the electron is obviously not a point charge -- and he gives some reasons -- but my understanding is that quantum mechanics treats the electron as a probability distribution, effectively a cloud of probability, fuzzy, not a point. So he has shot down a straw man. Nobody has replied, his article has not been cited. It's still fairly new.

    But he simply assumes the calculation success from the Mills article, apparently.

    He cites experimental confirmation of the Mills hydrino claim, but then notes that it has not been confirmed. So he gets some points there.

    Look, I'm not taking on this project. I have enough on my plate. However, I can provide, if people want it, guidance as to how to move beyond the limitations of "generally accepted." There are no guarantees, but it's possible. If you understand what I'm suggesting, and do it, you will learn a great deal, that's practically guaranteed. Mostly, and most importantly, you will learn about yourself, because moving beyond social conditions requires stepping outside of "normal," while remaining sane. It can be tricky!

    Personally, that knowledge is valuable whether or not the "project" succeeds. In a way, "success" is in movement, in the journey, not the nominal goal.

    However, this process often succeeds. Goals thought impossible are reached. Besides:


    Meanwhile, an obvious path forward for Mills is neglected. Instead, we see all these arguments about theory, and then about his relatively unconfirmed experimental claims. And complaints that Mills is rejected because of prejudice. Maybe. Maybe not. I will point out one fact I have observed. I have never seen any skeptic convinced by being told that they are stupid and biased and refuse to see the evidence.

    Consider that. We may do this over and over, it doesn't work, but we keep doing it. What is this, to keep doing what doesn't work? Why?

  • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:

    Can you post the name of the rejecting prof's and university??

    I have Wyttenbach blocked for reasons previously explained, so it is unreliable that I will see questions. Sometimes I do, for several reasons, including the flash of the message as a page loads. In any case:

    The story is found in Bart Simon, Undead Science, Rutgers University Press, 2002.

    The student was Nigel Packham. The reviewing professor was a "one committee member," and the University was Texas A&M. He was working with John Bockris, and he and Bockris were brought under suspicion by Gary Taubes' Science article that suspected deliberate addition of tritium. (Which was an outrageous accusation, a black mark on Taubes' record. I like Taubes, but he completely screwed up here.)

    This happened in 1990. "Finally, in 1992, Packham handed in an acceptable thesis. he had been forced to rewrite it, excluding all the material on cold fusion."

    Understand that to do great damage, the story does not need to be true. It merely needs to circulate. However, the story is likely true.

    Taubes actually has a great deal of detail on the thesis defense. pp. 413-418. From this account, the problematic member of the committee was Manny Soriaga.

    For his book, Taubes interviewed Soriaga by telephone and Packham in person. Taubes does cover the "compromise," but does not give a date. I am not sure that I can fully reconcile both accounts as to the final resolution.

    In this case, Taubes had become personally involved. Freakin' mess.

    What is clear is that the objections to the original thesis were out of a strong belief that cold fusion was bogus. In fact, the Bockris tritium results were consistent with other findings. Tritium is widely reported, something which is easily misunderstood, because the levels are quite low, about a million times down from helium, which has been correlated with heat. Tritium has not been correlated with heat, though my guess is that it probably is correlated. It is *not* "commensurable" with heat, i.e., with levels of tritium predicted from classic fusion reactions, and that fact seems to have mostly shut off studies comparing tritium and heat. It's very difficult to find information on this, most studies either looked for tritium (i.e., Bockris) or heat, not generally both. (Tritium production may involve an additional variable, not always well-controlled, the presence of hydrogen in the heavy water. Heavy water exposed to air will slowly increase in light hydrogen concentration, it is hygroscopic.

  • Abd : That is more or less exactly what I want to do here. The difference is that I think that we cannot use Millisan software, because a second after publishing the results (in case they were positive) "the internet" would raise the objection, that there are just look-up tables at the heart of Millisan. So I think we have to do these calculations on our own. From the 415 molecule bond energies in that graph I have calculated...wait for it...2 ( :D ) with Mills equations and I can confirm they are within 0.0X% rel. error compared to the experimental value. I think that this is a good start for another interested person to take the next two molecules and calculate it.

    The more efficient way would be to implement the generic equations for that from GUTCP p.679 ff. But I am struggling with the meaning of parameters c2 and C2 and what equations to use in what cases. Calculating more complex molecules by hand is not feasable - so sometime in the future we have to implement the generic equations for make progress.

  • I'm not saying some of these QM practitioners are dumb and blind because I expect that to be a convincing argument. I state that because the tipping point is very near and it will soon be generally accepted that QM is not and has never been an accurate theory of reality. Moreover, stating that the experimental results have not been independently verified is just outright false.

    Anyone could do a few minutes of research and follow up with any of these obviously qualified Ph.D's and verify that their validations are accurate as presented on Brilliant Light's website.

    It's pretty obvious that a theory with so many logical contradictions as QM cannot be correct. To believe in QM is to either affirm logic is useless or that we are living in some kind of matrix.

  • Those experimental values used in the plots must be very good. How were they generated?
    I would expect the perfect theory to make a nice straight line, and the experimental values to wobble around the line a bit. Such a perfect fit is almost unbelievable.
    Absolutely amazing if it is all true.

  • I learned from Holverstott (sorry if I missremember the name great book anyway) that there are quite simple emperical formulas that beats QM approach by a mile so there is a powerful mathementical
    structure, not explained by QM, that can be condensed into formualae, that is known. So you need to be sure that Mills doesn't just refine on such an approach in order to verify GUTCP. On the other hand
    this indicates that there is undiscovered structure in the description of the atom that extends what is known by QM.

  • I would expect the perfect theory to make a nice straight line, and the experimental values to wobble around the line a bit. Such a perfect fit is almost unbelievable.

    It is a matter of scale. If the QM values wouldn´t be so totally off you would see that also Mills results wobble around the green line. It is just orders of magnitude better than QM.

    @ Stefan: In my validation attempt I gave a link to a paper where an empirical equation for the ionization energies is given that gives similar good values than Mills (usually 99% compared to the 99,9% of Mills). The difference is that they use fitted values of a quadratic function to achieve this and Mills only fundamental constants. And this is not strange in my eyes, because the ionization energies are (in a classical sense) a quite simple construct: the electron has a potential in the field of the nucleus and must be corrected by the electron-electron interactions. That´s it. To get this right all you have to do is get the electron radii correct to get the potential. I think Mills achieved this and that is my next move in my GUTCP evaluation.

    Anyway: Are you aware of other simple equations/algorithms that compute different parameters of molecules such as the binding energies or the angles? Mills presumably has this right and I would like to know if this can be done with simple equations.

  • Quantum, mechanics is based on the wave nature of things. In LENR, that wave nature stops with the production of the Bose condinsate where the production of monopole flux lines commence.

    Quantum mechanical monopoles experimentally identified

    From that point on, things revert to nonequilibrium quantum mechanics where waves are left behind and straight field lines hold sway. This is the world of the color force that exist inside the proton and neutron where monopole flux lines hold the quarks together.

    In order to make sense of things, we must understand where we are and what rules apply in that particular situation.

  • See chapter 8 in Holverstott's book: "Randell Mills and the search for hydrino theory" there are references included at p 153. They are,

    (you should read this book)

    Benson, S & Buss J (1958), Additivity Rules for the Estimation of Molecular Properties. Thermodynamical Propertoies. The Journal of Chemical Physics 29; 546

    Cohen, N & S. W. Benson (1993), Estimation of Heats of Formation of Organic Compounds by Additivity Methods. Chemical Review 93: 2419-2438

  • Holverstott has a nice introduction at http://www.brettholverstott.com/sample/

    I was a midwife and founded a school of midwifery, so the story he tells about Semmelweiss is very familiar. Semmelweiss was right, and the practices he introduced were life-saving and ultimately adopted, but after a shameful delay.

    However, there is another side to the story. Semmelweiss became obsessed, attacking the obstetric profession, and he literally lost it, was committed to an institution and died there from a beating from guards.

    What's the lesson to draw here? Most cite Semmelweiss as some sort of evidence that the mainstream is wrong. He was right. The mainstream was wrong. But ... his example also shows how not to communicate what one has found. Could he have done better? I don't know. But probably.

    Holverstott reports trying to communicate with experts about Mills. He may go into much more detail in the book, but I would pose the problem for him in this way: What's missing here, the presence of which would make a difference? And can you supply it?

    The tendency is to rely on what I called Plan A. Commercial devices hit the market, then they will have to pay attention!

    But then what happens if there are delays and failures? What if actually harnessing the discovery is far more difficult than thought?

    Plan B is to do the science. Holmlid is doing the science, but something is missing: his most basic findings have not been confirmed, yet he is getting deeper and deeper into work that builds on the basic findings and that seems to assume them. That is his privilege, but is this efficient and effective?

    I have pointed out that if it is true that Millsian makes very accurate predictions, this could be established and shown. And if those predictions are coming from Mills' formulae, then those formulae deserve closer attention. To study this and show it is quite a bit of work. Is anyone doing it? Mills tooting his own horn in that paper five years ago on Millsian is not going to cut it.

    Independent confirmation, it's critical. And if one confirmation is not enough, then it must spread. It does not require every or even most physicists, say, to look at it. It only takes a very few.

    There are ways to foster this, but I don't see that the possibilities are being pursued. Hey, someone, make me wrong!

  • /* That is his privilege, but is this efficient and effective? */

    Of course it isn't - but this is not a problem of prof. Holmlid, who cannot make replications of himself - but the rest of scientific community. It does ignore everything, which doesn't follow the mainstream...

    /* those formulae deserve closer attention. To study this and show it is quite a bit of work */

    This is just a problem with replications: you're expending your own work for foreign glory. And at the moment, when you fail, you're bearing the risk of premature dismissal.
    The scientific community needs to establish some incentives for promoting the replications of breakthrough findings.

  • "What's the lesson to draw here? Most cite Semmelweiss as some sort of evidence that the mainstream is wrong. He was right. The mainstream was wrong. But ... his example also shows how not to communicate what one has found. Could he have done better? I don't know. But probably."

    What is true. Getting angry because people are stupid and can't see the obvious and then after using good communication move over to rants and harch words or starting out communicating in a negative way or start out beeing a prick. There is a time line in the behavior
    of semmelwise, he could have started of with good arguments and well behaving but beeing rejected over and over again by stupidity. Good arguments doesn't always bite in my experience and he obviously didn't get the reward he deserved which proabably explains his later

  • What I don't understand about the hydrino theory is how electron orbits can produce a temperature in a plasma that is equal to that of the Sun's surface.

    Every atom including hydrogen should be totally ionized in an environmental condition where the electrons are completely dissociated from the atom.

    How are the hydrino atom orbitals protected from solar level heat? This does not make sense to me. Can anybody explain?


    Holmlid has an alternate theory about how electron orbitals are relaxed below base levels. In his theory, there are trillions of muons produced by the electron lowering reaction.

    If Holmlid is right about what is going on, then any solid state power production process will fail.

    If the solar cell conversion works then Mills theory is right, it solar cell power conversion does not work, then Holmlid;s theory is right.

    Here is Holmlid's ideas and research



    The plasma in the SunCell is self-sustains for minutes, not microseconds as previouly observed. In fact, Mills stated that under proper conditions, both the arc current and the EM Pumps can be turned off and the plasma will continue to make power indefinitely.

    Mills believes along with many others that the hydrino is the simplest explanation, not some esoteric nuclear process.

    This update about "self sustain mode" is very important and informative.

    After hydrogen flow is stopped and by observing the amount of hydrogen inside the SunCell, it may be possible to calculate how much energy that the hydrino reaction produces per atom and match it up against the consumption of hydrogen in the SunCell.

    Can Mills shut down hydrogen flow and still produce self sustaining power production?

    These are the characteristics of the SunCell reaction that I am interested in.

  • R Mills tells us that the power density of the SunCell reaction comes from a volume of a tea cup. A few million watts of power inside a tea cup tells us something important. Such power density cannot come from a chemical source, the source of this huge power density must come from the nucleus.

    The recent demonstration of self sustained reaction that lasts for minutes adds to the evidence that the power cannot be a chemical source. The amount of gaseous chemical combustion material in a tea cup cannot sustain a power density of megawatts for minutes on end. Such huge energy must come from the nucleus.

    New chemical based fuel cannot get into the plasma ball to feed the reaction. Once the plasma process starts, the zone of plasma at 7000K cannot be penetrated by any new material inflow.

    The success of the SunCell is undercutting what Mills is saying produces the energy coming from the SunCell. As the SunCell grows in strength and power density, Mills theory is reduced in believability in like proportion.