'Lenrisnotreal' wants examples of LENR in nature

  • The conditions for LENR are extremely common yet there has not been a single instance of LENR observed in nature. Please explain [this] before continuing your discussion with me.


    Some odd phenomena have been noticed, whereby plants and animals seem to be able to manufacture vital elements that are lacking in their diet or environment.


    A summary of these findings can be read here:


    www.currentscience.ac.in/Volumes/108/04/0633.pdf


    A hypothesised mechanism for these findings is described here:


    http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a056906.pdf

    • Official Post

    You may be surprised then. But don't count them before they hatch.


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  • I could just as easily say: "Burning high octane gasoline is not observed in nature. Therefore burning high octane gasoline is not real"


    Or even sillier: "Wheels with pneumatic tires are not observed in nature. Therefore wheels with pneumatic tires are not real" Well, OK, maybe not real in Britain where they have tyres. :)

  • I'm not sure what I see here, but looks like lots of energy is released (around 00:50 mark) by using lots of force.

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    Is this just big binding energy energy released fast or is there something else also going on?

  • Dan21, I get your point, but I actually have some sympathy for lenrisnotreal's argument (Despite disagreeing with it).


    There's plenty of natural hydrocarbon fires, and maybe if I thought harder about it I could come up with an analogy in nature for a pneumatic tyre... (Or at least vulcanised rubber)


    Argon, that looks to me like the carbon in the steel is making those sparks.

  • Argon, That's an interesting video. All samples other than the bearing are flattened without visible energy release, probably by uniformly heating the items. But the ball obviously releases significant energy. First, I would calculate the energy stored in the elastic energy of deforming not just the ball, but also the press. You can see the dents in the press plates, and you know the modulus of steel (I assume the plates are some alloy of steel). But just as obviously, the plastic energy needed to deform the plate is not released, and so not added to the energy used to deform the ball.


    As a check, you can estimate the Ultimate Tensile Stress of the ball material, estimate the amount of deformation and integrated force to get the entire ball to that state, then estimate the temperature (from the color of the sparks) of the flying pieces, and compare them. If they don't agree within a large factor, there's something else contributing to the total energy.


    Another check would be to record the press ram pressure X diameter (if you can get that data) and integrate as a function of the distance traveled. Then subtract the energy that went into deforming the press plates. I'm sure I got some details wrong, but a check on units is always in order.

  • Thanks @Dan21 for your evaluation of the video (Actually it's not mine, but from very famous Hydraulic Press Channel that I like to watch when I'm tired).


    Your comment made me think about other test where they crushed ceramic ball. It required much bigger force to crush, and caused bigger 'explosion', but did not release visible heat, instead very fast moving debreee and impact wave that caused acryllic shielding to jump from its holder.


    Very different outcome. See between around 0:50 and 3:00 marks


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    Edit: There is one more video that came to my mind. See how small lithium battery of pacemaker explodes (starts around 2:30). Few similar sparks as in first video (steel bearing ball).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7E5Z2MTrNk

  • Argon: A lot more energy is stored crushing a steel ball than in crushing a ceramic ball before exploding. The ceramic ball stores energy equal to the area under just the elastic part of the stress-strain curve. The steel ball also stores the far greater energy of the area under the plastic region of the stress-strain curve. Ceramics are perfectly elastic materials that break at roughly 1% strain. High strength steel will go beyond 10% strain before breaking. Softer alloys can go several times that, but at a lower stress. Here's a more detailed explanation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress%E2%80%93strain_curve

    • Official Post

    Finely divided steel will burn in air if you get it hot enough. Steel wool and Iron FilingsW offer a good example. Because the steel ball is very hard chrome steel it stores a lot of energy before it fractures, and the elestic deformation and rebound effects litterally turn some of it to dust- that superfine and super-hot steel dust is what you see burning. Ceramics don't normally burn in air so no sparks.

  • Finely divided steel will burn in air if you get it hot enough. Steel wool and Iron FilingsW offer a good example. Because the steel ball is very hard chrome steel it stores a lot of energy before it fractures, and the elestic deformation and rebound…


    Facepalm. Duh. It's been weeks since I have had a piece of steel on a grind wheel and saw the sparks. I've even had formal education in determining the amount of carbon in the steel by judging the rate of repeating sprigs..... a long time ago.

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