Dangerosity of 28 ton TNT, or less...

  • Hi,


    I'm just thinking about "black swan" safety of LENR experiment


    My quick computation is the following.
    DD fusion provide 24MeV which is 3.85e-12 J per DD pair.
    D is 2.014g/mole and with 6.02e23 atom per mole this gives 575MJ/gram thus 125ton of TNT per gram of D


    now what is the damage caused by that, and reversely if you want to tolerate acceptable losses in a campus (below erasing the city for example :whistling: ) what is the maximum quantity of D you can risk to put in PdD cell ?


    I've found this video of 100 ton test


    some say that Tianjin accident was 3 then 21 tons of TNT.
    Domodedovo bombing is estimated at 7kg of TNT


    What is the quantity of D stored per gram of palladium ? if loading around 1, I suspect it is around 1/53 ?


    what is the quantity of D you can put in 1cm3 of Pd like did F&P around 1985 ?
    I see Pd is 12g/cm3 thus 0.23gD leading to 28ton of TNT fusion energy potentially? what is the possible damage in a campus?


    what is the quantity of D inside wires like Miles/storm/mckubre/F&P experiments ?
    what is the quantity of D in Pd, in Fralick, or mileys dry cells ?

  • What damage does 1 ton ?
    the equivalent of a WW2 B52 bomb ?
    28 ton should destroy a campus as I understand.


    in France AZF accident is estimated to be 100tons TNT equivalent
    http://azf.danieldissy.net/Guiochon/AZF-Toulouse-Houston.htm

  • yes, the power of LENR event is quite low compare to explosions, but for regulation you need a "whatever can happen" limit.


    My idea was just to put a limit on the size of LENR reactor, so in case of blackswan, and accepting there is no theory to exclude anything never observed, only something tragic but manageable happens.


    I don't remember my computation, but what is written, so it seems we risk only AZF style of accident with 1g of deuterium, thus 50g of palladium hydride...


    as I understand from the work of JP Biberaian and Jacques Ruer, the biggest risk is hydrogen. Even blackswan runaway like F&P in 1985, and Mizuno looks like slow reactions not worse than a plasma torch.

  • It is not so much the power, but the reaction rate that makes an explosion. A stick of dynamite and a cheeseburger have similar energy densities. It is more about how fast they burn.


    If LENR really is some sort of NR, then the reaction rates potentially could be very high, since nuclear events are rarely slow.

  • If LENR really is some sort of NR, then the reaction rates potentially could be very high, since nuclear events are rarely slow.

    If it was classical reaction, the kind which produces MeV quanta, YES.

    Hopefully the nature and cause of LENR seems to be a kind of "slow fusion", with slow leaking of the 24MeV energy... (my own intuition is more like the decay of (ded) nuclear-polymers though keV channels)

    Anyway as I proposed it can be a "worst assumption" to imagine all freed in a single nanosecond.


    The problem is that if this worst assumption is justified, we should consider the quanta are 24MeV (gamma,? fast particles?), not just X-rays and heat.


    Once the theory is known and confirmed, we could understand if this is possible. I guess no, but I cannot insure it. (I say insure because my idea is to propose community to reinsure LENR as mutual fund, and thus ensure worst event is payable).

  • Something to keep in mind, is that BLP is trying to sell the explosive potential of their reaction to the military. According to the last update, they are sponsoring an open house for them this month with that in mind. Whether or not Mills has a super chemical effect, or LENR remains to be seen. I believe though, Wytennbach thinks Mills is mistaken, and it is LENR.

  • I agree with Biberian and Ruer. The biggest danger from LENR is the chance of an accidental explosion of stoichiometric mixtures of hydrogen/deuterium and oxygen created by electrolysis. Pure hydrogen or deuterium is not particularly dangerous even when mixed with air- the bangs for unconfined gas are in my experience far less scary than those created by heavy vapours like gasoline or propane. the light gases just want to fly away.

  • I agree with Biberian and Ruer. The biggest danger from LENR is the chance of an accidental explosion of stoichiometric mixtures of hydrogen/deuterium and oxygen created by electrolysis.

    This is easy to prevent. With an open cell, use ventilation to blow the gas outside. With a closed cell, use a recombiner AND a pressure release valve in case the recombiner fails. All cells should be placed behind something like heavy Plexiglas so if they do explode they will not hurt anyone.


    The only event in which this was a danger was the explosion at SRI. Several fail-safe devices failed, in a tragic coincidence. That was a steel cell. Most cells are much weaker and will fracture before they build up enough gas to cause a serious explosion.


    I believe most experts do not think a cold fusion reaction can go rapidly out of control and cause a large explosion. It will melt before it explodes. Some experts worry about an explosion. Fleischmann did, and one of his early cells did explode. So, there's that.

  • Something to keep in mind, is that BLP is trying to sell the explosive potential of their reaction to the military. According to the last update, they are sponsoring an open house for them this month with that in mind. Whether or not Mills has a super chemical effect, or LENR remains to be seen. I believe though, Wytennbach thinks Mills is mistaken, and it is LENR.


    Mills might be wrong on the theoretical description of his Hydrinos, but is he completely wrong on the practice too?


    If he's obtaining some sort of "deep orbit" hydrogen like Wyttenbach also thinks (I believe), then the amount of energy liberated with this step will be only limited by the amount of hydrogen that can be converted at once, which even at "just" a few hundred eV per atom it's going to be very large compared to ordinary chemical reactions that are in the order of a few eV.


    The "dense hydrogen" product obtained, due to its high bond energy should be very stable and not undergo nuclear reactions easily; after all it's supposed to be the almost completely inert dark matter. This could be understood as the proper LENR fuel. However, while on one hand the reaction rate will be slow, on the other the energy per reaction will be very large, so whether it will be dangerous or not could simply be a matter of accumulation.


    If enough of the material can be concentrated in one place, the energy liberated per reaction itself (MeV of ordinary nuclear reactions to potentially hundreds of MeV if Holmlid is to be believed, due to annihilation processes) could easily overcome the difficulties in igniting it by ordinary means (thermal, etc).


    I find this sense of safety that some have about the observed LENR phenomena a bit misplaced, to be honest.


  • The reason for a low position of electrons in Holmlid theory is superconductivity in the hydrogen molecule. The Meissner effect pushes all electrons out of the positively charges core of the molecule and a shell of electrons forms a cloud of negative charge close to the positive nucleus of the hydrogen molecule.


    When the Meissner effect is strong, the election cloud is pushed to a distance far from the positive charged core, When the Meissner effect is the weakest, the election cloud is pushed to a distance nearest from the positive charged core.


    There is no case when the electron cloud will be forced into the positive core of the molecule. When the superconductive condition fails, the Meissner effect will terminate, and the electrons will resume their normal orbits and the ultra dense molecule will fail and devolve.

  • The reason for a low position of electrons in Holmlid theory is superconductivity in the hydrogen molecule. The Meissner effect pushes all electrons out of the positively charges core of the molecule and a shell of electrons forms a cloud of negative charge close to the positive nucleus of the hydrogen molecule.


    When the Meissner effect is strong, the election cloud is pushed to a distance far from the positive charged core, When the Meissner effect is the weakest, the election cloud is pushed to a distance nearest from the positive charged core.


    There is no case when the electron cloud will be forced into the positive core of the molecule. When the superconductive condition fails, the Meissner effect will terminate, and the electrons will resume their normal orbits and the ultra dense molecule will fail and devolve.

    ...

    ..

    .

    the nonsense continues.



    a) Does Holmlid say, that a nucleus is superconductive ?

    b) What is an election cloud ?