Rossi vs IH: (Update: Sep. 9 20– James A. Bass now a Third Party in IH’s Counter Complaint)

  • Abd wrote:
    But the lack of the required written agreement to the GPT start date has become a near-certainty. Rossi tried to force it without consent. Fatal error. If he worked hard for a year, he more or less wasted it, and guaranteed, by his behavior, that he would not be paid. Even if the damn plant worked!


    I admit to having no confidence I understand the contract law aspects of this case.[/quote]
    I have what might be called "reasonable confidence." Until I read the material many times, it was confusing. Admitting a lack of understanding is an excellent beginning. "If you are not confused, you don't understand the situation,:" can sometimes be said. At least at first!


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    But... How could the contract be equitable if IH could avoid paying simply by refusing to consent to the start of a GPT? Something more nuanced is required here or "fair play" rules would come into effect.


    I have addressed this to some degree already, so I'll take the opportunity to expand on it. First of all, can parties agree to an "inequitable contract"? What, in fact, defines equity? These are questions that lawyers may spend years learning to understand. So I will just give my relatively simple understanding.


    It's necessary here to be precise. Contracts are commonly written with an assumption of good faith. It is impossible to anticipate all situations, the contract would become a tome. This Agreement was primitively written, my opinion.


    Now, consider the original Agreement. The GPT was to start immediately upon delivery of the 1 MW E-Cat Plant. The way the contract was written, Penon would be the ERV unless there was some other agreement. Was that equitable?


    (It was downright crazy, in fact. Hang $10 million on Rossi's close friend was bad enough, but then a default that the same ERV continues? Formula for conflict. So what was IH thinking? My sense: the test was to be in their facility. They could closely watch it. They could add instrumentation. They would have control of power disspation! They could independently measure both output power and input power. And if they saw fraud, they could refuse to pay. No matter what the contract says. There is a presumption of good faith underlying all agreements. Basically, Rossi could not create more than a bad smell, if he wanted to, in their facility, supplying power to a customer IH chose, who would measure it. Rossi was not ready for such a test. The original test plan was unworkable.


    So they punted. They created a failsafe plan. The test was to be postponed to a time they agreed upon. That agreement could cover everything, up to and including a complete change in the requirements. This is the bottom line and this is standard: if everyone agreed, the Agreement could be changed. Otherwise it's the original agreement, or an accepted amendment.


    So could IH unreasonably refuse to schedule a GPT? No. That would be actionable, because it would be frustrating the purpose of the agreement, the quid pro quo on which it was founded. Rather, if there was disagreement, they could negotiate, and if that failed, they could ask a court to decide (or, in fact, agree to, say, binding arbitration.) The requirement for all parties to agree was essential to an agreement to postpone until ready. It was not a carte blanche to avoid payment, it would not work that way.


    Who wrote the original Agreement? I think there was some negotiation, but much of it seems to me to have come from Rossi. IH's strategy at that point was to give Rossi what he wanted within reason. They were willing to go substantially outside of normal reason. But not to commit suicide. What they wanted was for him to do what he promised to do: show them how to make devices that worked. If we look at the Agreement now, some of it looks unfair to Rossi. Yet he signed it. He complains that they misled him, but did he consult a lawyer before signing a $100 million contract?


    My sense is that Rossi believes he is really smart. That can be fatal. Humility is a virtue for strong survival reasons!


    There is no sign that Rossi was ready for a GPT before the proposed move to Doral. The IH theory is that this was simple: he knew it could not pass a test with IH fully engaged. He needed to have full control, and he could not get that in North Carolina, so he arranged for a set of circumstances in Florida that could look like a GPT, and was willing to pay IH for this, I assume that the $30,000 per month came out of his pocket. (this is all rebuttable, but by this time, I'm not holding my breath for it.)


    In any case, it was not inequitable for the Agreement to be changed to require mutual consent for the start of the test. The one problem would be unreasonable refusal, and that would then be an ordinary contract dispute. The literal meaning of the requirement could be interpreted inequitably, but a court would be unlikely to do that.


    For Rossi to clearly attempt to sidestep that requirement for agreement, with deception, was attempted fraud.


    Even if the plant worked.


    Quote

    And, if there is something more nuanced Rossi's lawyers have perhaps more to play with. Not that, generally, I think they have much due to the obvious inequity of Rossi claiming 1MW when he clearly is not producing it.


    So the layers of this case, from the IH position:


    1. No GPT, for three reasons. They asserted the first (unsigned document) and second ("six cylinder unit") in the first MTD, and because of the judge's comment in her rejection of the dismissal of Count 1, they asserted the second in the Motion for Judgment. The have withdrawn that and if they file another motion, I expect them to strongly assert the third reason, the lack of an agreement to the test day. Rossi's claim of that agreement was not explicit, it was implied, and has no substantial evidence behind it, only his conclusory statements that this or that showed acceptance of the GPT, perhaps, if he actually claims estoppel on that, which he did not actually do. Did he hope nobody would notice?


    If he claims estoppel, he might "get away with it," but the result will only be a drastic increase in his legal expenses, because unless he actually has some clear agreement, not just a faux, kinda-looks-like agreement, he will lose, and probably before trial, when discovery will be complete, and he has evidence or he doesn't.


    2. The test setup was fraudulent, hence unclean hands.


    3. The test itself was fraudulent.


    Number 1 is far, far easier to establish.


    By the way, there are those who express chagrin that Rossi v. Darden may not reveal whether the plant worked or not. The evidence that the plant did not work is mostly at this time circumstantial, though the "informal warehouse calorimeter" issue is pretty strong. However, Darden has filed a countersuit where performance may become an issue.

  • THHuxley wrote:
    But... How could the contract be equitable if IH could avoid paying simply by refusing to consent to the start of a GPT? Something more nuanced is required here or "fair play" rules would come into effect.


    I am allergic to legal documents, but . . . If you read the I.H. Answer carefully, and you believe their version of events, I.H. offered their own space to perform the GPT.


    Yes, see Exhibit 16, which more or less confirms, with Rossi's own writing, what Dewey had told us. I don't know for sure that was for a GPT, it was for a power installation that could have been a GPT if IH consented, and being under their control (or neutral control), that would have been safe.


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    They did extensive testing and found no heat. Finally, after many failures, Rossi moved the whole machine to Florida because -- he himself told them -- he had a customer who wanted to buy the heat. By the time all this happened it was clear the machine was not working.


    That is what they say. Sometimes they state it as COP lower than the Validation test, but sometimes they are quite specific: no measurable excess heat.


    We do not know for sure that they tested the individual units in the 1 MW E-cat Unit. I sure would have! But they made the Lugano device and when they tested it, they could not confirm Lugano. Lugano was not a fraud, at least not as to heat. It was error on the part of the "independent professors," who were not chosen for expertise in what was needed. Ah, this is such a story!


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    My impression is that I.H. figured they might as well give him a last chance. (Abd also has that impression, independent of me.)


    Yes. Basically, why not? Rossi avoided mentioning "test," apparently. We don't know when he first called Doral a "test."


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    They could see there were problems with the Florida test, which they summarized in the Motion to Dismiss, " . . . departing from the purported test plan, ignoring inoperable reactors, relying on flawed measurements, and using unsuitable measuring devices." I believe they saw this as a last ditch effort to make it work. At that stage, after the failures in North Carolina, I cannot imagine anyone at I.H. would agree to designate this test the official, irrevocable GPT. Nor would they stake the whole thing on an evaluation by Penon.


    I expect the same. Given what evidence they had by 2014, when the Doral installation was negotiated, there is no way they would have trusted either Penon as ERV, and a power installation with hidden power usage would be totally inappropriate for a GPT.


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    As you see in Exhibit 5, they had many problems with Penon in 2015, and with the test as a whole.


    Exhibit 5 mentions some preliminary data from 2015, but does not state that they "had problems with Penon" in 2015. They may have had problems but perhaps did not confront them then. Their game at that time was to give Rossi maximum opportunity to prove himself without triggering his paranoia.


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    It would be crazy to agree this was the GPT. On the other hand, if Rossi had pulled the rabbit out of the hat, and the machine had worked in Florida, I am sure they would have been thrilled to pay the $89 million.


    Indeed. And, in fact, if Rossi doesn't end up in prison over this, and goes to Sweden and cuts a deal with Hydro Fusion, and working products end up on the market, they have a License. (Unless they give it up in a negotiation. If they are totally convinced that Rossi never had anything and everything was fraud, they might. It's a judgment call. The problem is that working Rossi devices could be worth a trillion dollars. Consider the license an insurance policy.)

  • I have a lot of information about this test, and I know it was fake.


    We have surprisingly little information about this test. And you have said multiple times that we now know everything you did. The information about this test is eventually going to come out in a very big way (hopefully) part and parcel with the ongoing litigation.

  • And why anyone with a pipe wrench could confirm that in 5 minutes, by opening the plumbing and looking at the rust, debris, and high water mark. As anyone with half a brain would do.


    Except that rust marks are not created by flowing water, but rather, by standing water, as anyone with half a brain would know. Second thoughts on the insult, but more just parroting the language being thrown about here.

  • Quote

    I have heard that he often destroyed old prototype devices to use the parts for new ones.


    That is an extremely common claim, almost a hallmark, in free energy scams. Nobody who is legitimate does that in real life. Nobody is THAT stupid. Sure, backyard experimenters will salvage parts but they even they won't scavenge from a machine which is in the process of doing what most people said was impossible.


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    Or perhaps I was wrong, and none of his previous experiments was valid.


    To put this a bit more objectively, it is fair to say that there is no credible evidence that any of Rossi's experiments was valid. There are gaping holes in the setups and hugely obvious places Rossi could cheat in every test and demo he has ever displayed or discussed in public. That Rossi consistently refused proper calibration without proper reasons reinforces this view. Rossi does not seem insane in the classical sense. And even if he is crazy, that would not suggest that he ever had a working LENR reactor.

  • JedRothwell wrote:


    Your logic is inconsistent. You have acknowledged multiple times in the past and even relatively recently that Rossi's technology might work. Then you suggest that the 1 MW test was a blatant fraud. Nobody on this wide planet would use a non-working fraudulent version of their technology in the most important test of all, when they had a working version in their possession. Such logic flies in the face of reason. It is as if I had developed a singular cure for all forms of cancer, and when the most important human trial of the drug was carried out, I swapped the working drug for sugar water. Who would do that?!


    First of all, this is not exactly "logic." What is the syllogism? Jed is conveying his impressions and conclusions.


    Jed says that "Rossi's technology might work," which, in context, would mean that some devices at some times produced some anomalous heat. Jed has concluded that the 1 MW test was fraudulent. I consider that likely as well, but certainly do not know it as a fact (i.e., that there was no excess heat at all). This "fraudulent" idea is not contradictory to the idea that some devices might have worked at some time --- which is just a possibility, not a proven fact.


    I find on Planet Rossi a very strange concept of "reason." Basically, hidden assumptions are incorporated. "when they had a working version in their possession." Jed did not say that! And then there is a limited and restricted model of how human beings operate. A version of this is "Rossi couldn't be a fraud, he'd have to be crazy!"


    Some people are actually crazy, and they can sometimes be what is called "high functioning," and can convince a lot of people to go along with their insanity.


    Many on Planet Rossi may not be aware of the history of cold fusion. It happened more than once that "working devices" stopped working for unknown reasons. We now have a better idea of why that happened (changes in difficult-to-control material conditions, poorly understood), but it is entirely possible that Rossi had a working device and couldn't get it to work. This can especially happen if the inventor is fully focused on More Heat and doesn't take the time to nail down control of what he already has. Combine this with some measurement artifacts, and there are signs that Rossi doesn't really understand the issues (consider that Hydro Fusion "fake failure" and read Lewan's account of it), it could be very, very confusing and yes, the "secret" could be lost.

  • They main reason for Rossi to move to Doral was the inability of IH to provide a test location...


    Exhibit 16 to IH's Answer is an email dated July 5, 2014, from Rossi to several people, including Darden, in which Rossi makes the case for moving the 1 MW plant to Florida. In that email, Rossi writes that "Your proposal to put the plant in a factory owned by yourself at least until recently is dramatically less convincing." It seems, then, that Rossi himself acknowledged that IH had offered a location for the plant (possibly for a test).


    What does the "at least until recently" part mean? It's something for the lawyers to argue over, I suppose.

  • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:


    I strongly suggest that you should employ a competent and rigorous copy editor...


    Funny, I've been a professional copy editor. Different kinds of writing have different purposes. Now, WTF is Zeus46? Profile blocked. We had another Zeus46, now Gongfarmer (profile also now blocked).

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    Otherwise I imagine War And Peace be a mere pamphlet in comparison.


    The project has begun. I am writing her emails regarding a situation. These will be voluminous. They will not be the book, they will be source material. I do not write "finished work" on fora like this. It is far, far too much work, and there is no particular payoff.

    Quote

    According to an anecdote published in 1918 Woodrow Wilson was asked about the amount of time he spent preparing speeches, and his response was illuminating: 15


    “That depends on the length of the speech,” answered the President. “If it is a ten-minute speech it takes me all of two weeks to prepare it; if it is a half-hour speech it takes me a week; if I can talk as long as I want to it requires no preparation at all. I am ready now.”

    http://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/04/28/shorter-letter/
    Generally, on fora like this, I write to learn. (As I teach and coach to learn.) I research while I'm writing, often, but not always. If I'm researching, the writing is my notes. Don't want to read them, be my guest, I am not ever offended because someone doesn't read what I write.

  • That is an extremely common claim, almost a hallmark, in free energy scams. Nobody who is legitimate does that in real life. Nobody is THAT stupid.


    The Wright brothers did this all the time. After the first four powered flights of December 17, 1903, the airplane was turned over and smashed with a gust of wind. It was a cold day, and they debated whether to light the machine on fire for a bonfire to warm up, or whether to box it up and return it to Dayton. In the end they boxed it up. It now hangs in the Smithsonian, the most famous airplane in history. Other airplanes and gliders they flew at Kitty Hawk were abandoned, burned, or donated to local housewives who used the fabric.


    Many other scientists and inventors have destroyed equipment or tossed out important information.

  • @Abd,


    I'm going to reprise and condense the argument here that remains for me unresolved.


    (1) IHT claim the Florida test was not a GPT because neither Rossi nor they referred to it as such.


    This is plausible. Rossi seems to have argued for this not as a GPT but as a "dramatic effort" vis his objection to using the IH premises. That BTW knocks on the head IHFB's comment that IH have not provided premisses for the test. They clearly did provide premises for (a - GPT-like - test). Just not the one Rossi wanted to do with a Rossi-faked customer in a Rossi-faked warehouse.


    (2) Abd argues (or half argues) that lack of consent from IH for the Doral test as GPT means Rossi is stuck - it can't be the GPT.


    Here I don't agree. We do not yet have evidence IH have agreed to ANY GPT, and if their consent is required then they can gain the benefits of teh contract while avoiding paying simply by withholding this. Inequitable. Of course Abd rightly points out that other aspects of this contract are inequitable. It is a clearly bad contract - a good match for Rossi's many many clearly bad demos and tests.


    Given the potential lack of equity on both sides, and the terrible nature of the contract, I don't think any legalistic argument based on the letter of the contract is likley to win this. That applies to Rossi (the ERV said it so its true) even more than to IH (we never agreed it is the GPT so it can't be that).


    Going to the "reality" of it we have a test which was clearly faked, and which IH clearly did not have access to validate, with an ERV who we are pretty sure now will not stand up and be counted in the US (very sensibly) who stopped answering polite letters from IH before the end of the test.


    We also, on a separate axis, have a claim for 1MW generation of heat in a warehouse with no way to dissipate this (if IH photos of broken unused fans in vents etc are to be believed). It would require a super-strenth fan to vent enough air volume to disspiate 1MW even at +10C temperature differential to ambient. That would make any florida warehouse unlivable in Summer I'd expect?


    So I see IH as winning hands down on "real" considerations, but the matter based on the letter of the contract is complicated because the contract was clearly stupid and inequitable in both directions, as was the conduct of the test.



    (4) The "They would all have fried!" argument.


    Airflow calculations for the record (approx):


    Air density 1 kg/m^3
    Air specific heat: 1 kJ/kgK


    Air flow needed to limit temp rise in factory to +10C = 100kg/sec = 100m^3/sec or 360000m^3/hour


    Heavy duty industrial ventilation fan: http://www.tombling.com/cooling/electric-fan.htm
    1.35m^3/sec.


    Biggest factory roof exhaust fan I can find: http://www.industrialfansdirec…-R-M/LFI-RTA48T10750.html
    18,000 cfm = 35/60 m^3/s = 0.5 m^3/s


    You'd need a lot of these! That much heat cannot be vented without rows of vents and heavy-duty fans driving each one, or a cooling tower!

  • Quote from THHuxley: “That BTW knocks on the head IHFB's comment that IH have not provided premisses for the test.”


    And where, might I ask, did I complain of this? I can understand my points might cause some anxiety, but when you start attacking…


    I do apologise, it was Wyttenbach. The two of you both make "poking" style comments that seem designed to get a reaction rather than elucidate matters - but my aplogies for confusing you with him.


    May I ask why your comments might cause anxiety? Other than your intent to evoke feelings in others, I can't quite see how they do that? If wishes were horses...

  • It would require a super-strenth fan to vent enough air volume to disspiate 1MW even at +10C temperature differential to ambient. That would make any florida warehouse unlivable in Summer I'd expect?


    No, don't be taken by all of the nonsense. It would require a single chimney with reasonable diameter to vent the heat. No venting of steam required since it was being condensed back to water. IH supposedly checked for heat coming from the roof, but we have no information of when, how often, what their readings were, etc. Just a claim. When I pressed on this some more, not a peep. So maybe they took their IR camera up on the roof one or two times. But the heat release through the ceiling was most likely intermittent anyway.

  • The two of you both make "poking" style comments that seem designed to get a reaction rather than elucidate matters


    They are cutting. They might make you feel uncomfortable. They are steeped in reason. They cut to the chase (as opposed to some contributors here). In some sense, you are right, they are designed to get a reaction. But that should celebrated, because otherwise the overwhelmingly weighted IH fan club here would never be challenged and would lull themselves into a false sense of calm groupthink security.

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