Does anyone know whether an inexpensive lab experiment could replicate the claimed data?
This is more or less a sales pitch for the so called W-L "theory", which in fact is more like a summary of speculative assumptions.
They (WL) also ignore many facts found e.g. in Russian experiments, which show than LENR also goes downwards the periodic table of elements. (What is excluded by W-L...)
The only answer, which could help us, would have been a MS for Pt/Pd/Au, which was not provided - I speculate again, it would have been against WL...
But the findings are interesting, especially if You know what damage Pt/Pd/Au can cause in Your body, when you are briefing in this stuff!
It was almost painful to read that presentation. The level of extrapolation was... unfortunate. It is worse than the LENR fluorescent lamp story. These guys will be binned with the fringe nut bars, rather than serious scientists if they keep up these LENR under every bed stories.
These roadside studies fail to note that there is often way more gold around than the average crustal abundance might suggest. Contrary to most textbook descriptions of gold, it is very mobile in many environments.
Lattice Energy LLC - Production of Gold via LENR transmutation of Platinum in vehicular catalytic converters - Sept 28 2016
slideshare.net/lewisglarsen/la…c-converters-sept-28-2016
Does anyone know whether an inexpensive lab experiment could replicate the claimed data?
There are a number of issues here. Larsen uses his standard Slideshare publication technique which makes it very difficult to copy his work for critique. My sense is that this is deliberate. Nobody else in the field publishes in this way.
The report starts by claiming LENR with palladium catalyst in catalyztic converters, through neutron activation converting palladium to gold. The experimental evidence shown is what would be called "epidemiological" in medicine or nutrition. There is no controlled study. A glance at the evidence revealed to me contrary evidence. If I read the chart correctly, while platinum and palladium, used as catalysts, were found to vary in abundance inversely with the distance from a road, gold did not vary this way. This would indciate that the gold was environmental, not from palladium or platinum. But then Larsen presents a series of correlation analyses that might contradict this.
As is typical with Larsen claims about transmutations, there is no rate analysis. This is one of the basic problems with W-L theory, rate. To function to deplete platinum, as he claims (as distinct from producing rare transmutations, the rate must be high, and the reactions should, then, be easily detectable. Widom-Larsen theory requires ad hoc assumptions that are not supported by experimental evidence. The reactions he claims should generate copious activation gammas, but these are not seen. So he then posits a "gamma shield" allegedly created by the same patches of "heavy electrons" that allow generation of "ultra low momentum" neutrons. The gamma shield should be detectable, then, with gamma imaging. Answering that, Larsen wrote that the patches are so transient that they could not create images. However, activation gammas are not immediate, they are spread out in time. If the patches are transient, they could not block the activation gammas. As well, edge-on imagining should still detect them. (i.e, the irradiating gammas would be parallel to the surface where these patches are allegedly formed.)
There is no confirming evidence. Just these ad hoc and post hoc "explanations."
Larsen has stonewalled almost all critique. Widom-Larsen theory has some popularity among those who don't look too closely, because it is a "not fusion" theory, which allows some level of CYA. This is big with Steve Krivit, who trashed his relationship with the CMNS community by his shameless promotion of W-L theory and his attacks on anyone who dared to criticize it.
Larsen periodically comes up with some alleged anomaly as being explained by W-L theory. None of these have been confirmed with controlled experiment. Larsen has been working on this since the 2006 paper, at least. His company, Lattice Energy, certainly had the funds to be able to find experimental evidence. (Some of Storms' equipment came from Lattice; he was a consultant for them, and still owns stock, but has strongly distanced himself from them, and Krivit attacks him.)
To the question here about inexpensive replication, replication of what? The data given is from analytical studies of dust and materials near roads. That requires a mass spectrometer -- and the skill to use it. Storms had two mass spectrometers at home, but most people don't! One can buy time on university machines, but what is one studying?
If anyone is seriously interested in this, I would think that the approach would be to first of all, read the Larsen source papers carefully, and look at what he makes of this data critically. There is a basic question to ask: are the alleged transmutations taking place inside the converter, on the surfaces (which seems to be what he is claiming, at least in part) or are they taking place in particles already released, already moving into the exhaust? If the former, then, there should be a buildup of isotopic shifted and transmuted elements in the converter itself. There is a market in used converters for the salvage value. One could obtain these, take samples, and return the large bulk of the material to the salvage stream. One might be able to work with salvage companies to simply take samples, it should not be terribly expensive. Then one could arrange for testing of these materials. Ideally, one would know how long the converters were used, but that could be additional data. If there is shifting, the year of manufacture or range of years should correlate with the degree of shift, over many samples.
Myself, I think the probability if this "effect" being real is low. Nevertheless, a paper on isotopic shifts and transmutations in catalytic converter materials could be publishable. There are many pitfalls in transmutation work. Artifacts abound. But ... it can be done.
If there are transmutations, I don't see that it is any evidence for W-L theory at all. What Larsen does is look around for anomalies or alleged anomalies that he can then ascribe to the theory, which is a swiss-army knife of potential transmutations. You can explain lots of stuff with it, if you pay no attention to rate.
It was almost painful to read that presentation. The level of extrapolation was... unfortunate. It is worse than the LENR fluorescent lamp story. These guys will be binned with the fringe nut bars, rather than serious scientists if they keep up these LENR under every bed stories.
There are many groups of LENR observers, and there are the LENR researchers. W-L never gained traction with the actual researchers to my knowledge. Among LENR observers, there are many of a hopeful temperament who treat nuclear science as a black box, seeking out patterns, and mixing and matching claims made in patents with this or that LENR paper, squinting their eyes and wondering if there is a connection. Or those who, as in the case of Larsen, treat nuclear science as clay to be molded to one's wishes.
I always have a hard time following the argument in Larsen's slides. But not infrequently he points to some possibly interesting experimental anomaly, in this case the ratios of isotopes of Pt, Pd and Rh that apparently go back to catalytic converters. I would not be surprised at all if LENR were taking place in catalytic converters. I cannot think of how gold would factor into this.
@Eric Walker,
The W-L hypothesis is one thing. It could use some testing, and raise it to theory or put it to bed.
The anecdotal, and generally highly ambiguous (and often quite wrong) examples they pull out to show that it works is another thing. These examples have been so poor that they distract and detract from the W-L hypothesis significantly. IMO.
I don't think of the slides as a scientific presentation. They're the attempts of an engineering type to connect some dots. I do not think they support his case for W-L. But I find the catalytic converter idea interesting on its own merits, separate from W-L.
W-L seemed moribund from the start. Assume for the moment that gobs of neutrons are being generated as they contend, and that, despite this, the gammas that would normally arise from the decay of excited states when those neutrons are captured are instead thermalized into IR by "heavy electrons." But neutron activation will presumably long outlive whatever LENR process they propose, in which case you'd get telltale gamma decays after the LENR is turned off. What is fascinating to me is that Larsen continues to pursue this proposal after having had eleven years to reevaluate it.
The HHO LENR proposition in catalytic converters has been around for a long time. The wash-coat catalysts used in the ceramic matrix inside the catalytic converters bear a strong resemblance to conventional LENR materials. The high temperatures of catalytic converter matrix operation would seem to be a place where high rate LENR could occur. What I haven't seen is a well controlled experiment. Why not remove the catalyst matrix from a catalytic converter and put it inside a high vacuum chamber. Heat it to de-gas, sputter clean it if necessary, and then fill will hydrogen, deuterium, or other isotopic gasses (18O ?) as potential reactants/tracers. This would be a far cleaner system in which to look for transmutations.
The idea of using specific isotopic gasses other than H/D for transmutation analysis has been reported by Santilli, who demonstrated and reported high rate transmutation in a gas filled, high current arc discharge system.
For all we know, there could be ppM of Au in the fuel that is being burned and processed through the catalytic converters. Why would it have to come from the road?
The HHO LENR proposition in catalytic converters has been around for a long time. The wash-coat catalysts used in the ceramic matrix inside the catalytic converters bear a strong resemblance to conventional LENR materials. The high temperatures of catalytic converter matrix operation would seem to be a place where high rate LENR could occur. What I haven't seen is a well controlled experiment. Why not remove the catalyst matrix from a catalytic converter and put it inside a high vacuum chamber. Heat it to de-gas, sputter clean it if necessary, and then fill will hydrogen, deuterium, or other isotopic gasses (18O ?) as potential reactants/tracers. This would be a far cleaner system in which to look for transmutations.
The idea of using specific isotopic gasses other than H/D for transmutation analysis has been reported by Santilli, who demonstrated and reported high rate transmutation in a gas filled, high current arc discharge system.
For all we know, there could be ppM of Au in the fuel that is being burned and processed through the catalytic converters. Why would it have to come from the road?
One of the first things to understand about LENR is that it's probably rare. If it were not rare, we would expect billions of years to have shifted isotopic balances in ways that have not been observed. There are some anomalies that are reported, such as 3He in volcanic gases.
I agree that the studies Larsen relies on generate some interesting possibilities. However, I would not jump from this to attempting to create the effect in the lab. A catalytic converter is subject to years of certain strong conditions . I suggested, above, instead, investigating the mufflers more directly by obtaining material samples from recyclers. While detailed usage information is likely not available, nevertheless it can be inferred from information that is probably available, that would correlate with actual usage (such as date or range of dates of manufacture, and date the converter went into recycling.) While there is the possibility that the LENR effect, if it exists, only takes place on nanoparticles after release, why not look under the streetlight first? After all, the light is better there.
There are other studies that could be done with the existing data. I don't trust that Larsen has presented the data neutrally, so anyone could obtain the original papers and review that data. From my point of view, in science, the goal is not to prove or disprove anything. However, data may be collected and analyzed to compare the predictions of a theory with actual results. The theory here is that catalytic converters and their operating conditions are creating transmutations. Well? Are they?
(A careful study could be published in JCMNS, by the way. This would be interesting.)
Anyone who starts with studying that evidence will be practicing and learning to practice real science. The next step would be more controlled "experiment" which can still be observational in nature. Studying the correlation of length of operation with held possible transmutations is approaching controlled experiment, if predictions are made before collecting the data. (Finding correlations after data is collected is reasonable in terms of suggesting further work, but it is fraught with hazards, because we have a million ways to analyze data and we may select them to create an appearance.)
If there is a time, correlation, then we have a beginning. As suggested, what is the gold concentration in fuel? If there is gold in fuel, it could accumulate, depending on converter conditions. How does gold vary in fuel? Are there regional differences? Real research can be difficult, but is also rewarding; it can actually generate answers to questions, rooted in reality.
We know that transmutations are possible in LENR, there are probably too many reports to dismiss. But rates are very low. My brief summary of PdD results:
Excess heat is correlated with helium, one to one, basically, one reaction, one helium atom produced. Tritium is about a million times down (the evidence is difficult to analyze, often no correlation with heat was attempted, the data was not reported that way). Neutrons (i.e., fast neutrons) are a million times down from that. Other transmutations are at lower levels than tritium. Slow neutrons would be captured, causing isotopic shifts and then some transmutations. Slow neutrons have not been directly measured. ULM neutrons are merely extremely slow, hence more likely to be captured.
Widom-Larsen theory, if it is the basic "cold fusion" mechanism, would predict much higher transmutation rates, neutrons are highly reactive with many nuclei. Helium would be a relatively rare product. So far, W-L theory appears to contradict the experimental evidence we have, and no controlled experiments have confirmed it or even substantially supported it. Almost all of what is asserted is post-hoc analysis, taking some unexplained anomaly and proposing W-L theory. Neutrons from lightning flashes, which are a plasma, with high energies, quite reasonable that it would produce some level of hot fusion, enough for detectable neutrons.
What I haven't seen is a well controlled experiment.
Hi Bob. A year or more back I did probably the closest thing I have seen to a controlled experiment using car exhaust catalyst sections and stoichiometric Oxy-Hydrogen. The trial utilised comparative total immersion calorimetry - looking for a difference between between simple flame combustion and catalytic re-combination of the same volume of gas inside inside a total immersion calorimeter. It was the immersion aspect that mandated the use of Oxy-Hydrogen. Attached is the first of two reports I wrote on this experiment - with plenty of pictures - the other is buried in ECW somewhere. It was all written up and posted on ECW, whose members contributed generously ($560 approx- around 50% of the cost of the tests) to the cost of hardware etc.
I found none of the claimed XSH, which brought me a fair bit of nasty abuse from one of the main characters promoting the system as a form of LENR. There was also no radiation- though you must remember that the Geirger tube was on the wrong side of around 20cms of water. These are difficult experiments at best- Oxy-Hydrogen and combustion of any kind is prone to getting scary at times. and I would caution anybody working this way to be very careful.
ETA- just remembered on reading through my report that we did the radiation checks with no water in the calorimeter. - so there was effectively little shielding except (say) 10 cms of air.
Alan Smith ... Thanks for posting the report! I am sure that that was part of the original concept of the HHO LENR? reaction. However, I would never want to be looking for LENR in an explosive mix or from active combustion - just too dangerous and messy (I don't envy that experiment). I thought about using the catalytic converter matrix inside the high-vac system in a bell jar using only H2 at low pressure, or D2, or 18O2 - perhaps in plasma - and at high catalyst temperature, and look specifically for transmutation products.
So much fun, so little time.
I play around with catalytic converters a lot always cutting them open and playing with insides. Hho is pretty cool to inject into it but gets incredibly hot to fast and flashbacks happen every time blowing up your generator for the Hho. I told Robert Greenyer once about a time I soaked a piece in hydrogen peroxide hoping to load with hydrogen for several hours until the bubbling slowed down then wrapped it in open air with heater wire then put it in the middle of the garage floor on top of a dinner plate I had out there. I applied 120 volt ac to it switching it on and off as needed to keep the small amount of wire from burning up when all of the sudden out of nowhere the dinner plate exploded into a bunch of pieces. Robert thought that it was probably the heat expanding the plate stressing it to break but sometimes I wonder, must not have been bad I am still alive. still strange to me that the plate blew apart I put those things in the microwave for 30 mins before no problem
I play around with catalytic converters a lot always cutting them open and playing with insides.
In a famous Homer simpson episode (the only one I watched so far..) he built a nuclear home reactor...
That time I thought this was an exaggeration...
New slide show by Larsen. Good history overview (pgs2-17). Includes the Sternglas/Einstein angle, Larsen's initiation to LENR with Miley, development of the various theories, etc. Good Sunday read:
