Some Points Regarding a Recent Presentation at ICCF20 on the ‘Lugano Report’ (Rainer Rander)

  • Quote from THHuxley: “Bob here goes further, saying (effectively) that his data is accurate enough to validate excess heat here. There is a world of difference between:”


    One thing is clear: An emissivity of 0.95 for Alumina cement is to high. The…


    I don't think anything here is clear except that there is some uncertainty on the Al emissivity, and it is certainly very different band from total at the relevant temperatures here.


    We cannot tell what alumina cement was used, nor what thickness, or if something else. And the object was (roughly) ridged. If you want the theory (well validated) for how that effects emissivity go read TC. He states the theory and makes the (minor) correction for the ridges! But this is dwarfed by the uncertainties.


    MFMPs work is nice in that it gives empirical data but they did not have the Lugano reactor. There is a sense in which the theoretical calculation from the real reactor data is more correct than their empirical results - although of course the experiment adds much to our detailed understanding and validates the theoretical work as the Lugano testers never did. But it cannot remove the undertainties because we cannot assume that their reactor is identical to the Lugano reactor.

  • Yes, MY, to be a good impersonator, one must know these oddities well. I have no idea if…


    Note that these post came up shortly after I sent my comment to Rossi. You know that I'm still very open minded about Rossi and as suspicious about IH's motives as you are, but it seems hard to deny now that Rossi is indeed the likely author of all these fake handle posts.


    Does that tell us that he is a genius fraudster? Certainly not! If anthing, it tells us that he is a very poor fraudster, lacking the cunningness to produce even remotely convincing fake posts on his JNOP. Yet most people here seem to assume that this is the same person who defrauded not only defrauded a group of shrewd investors also dozens of proficient scientists and journalists. Think about that discrepancy for a moment.

  • from somewhere



    Hello Everybody ! Are you in an excited state or just happy to see my post on EW ?
    Seem that you ware having fun without me ! Bad boys ! Not inviting the only girl in the group !
    You ware wanting to make the party all alone !


    Paradigmoia emissivity of a materia is NOT an easy think to calculate from components of a ceramic.
    You need actually to measure it.
    I was not saying anything new from what I have said before here.
    That "unknown origin" table tell us nothing more then what was already discussed. It is the spectral emissivity.... that must be integrated to obtain the single number that an IR camera needs.
    Should we discuss it again boys ? Seems yes !

  • Paradigmoia emissivity of a materia is NOT an easy think to calculate from components of a ceramic.


    Yet this is what they tried to do in Lugano.



    You need actually to measure it.


    Yes, you do. Please do. End this insanity.



    It is the spectral emissivity.... that must be integrated to obtain the single number that an IR camera needs


    Yes indeed.
    The spectral emissivity needs to be selected from and integrated into the same bandwidth as the spectral sensitivity range of the Optris: 7.5 to 13 μm.

  • I have no idea if it is Rossi masquerading.


    I think you can get an idea if you examine it objectively and think it through. This happens nearly on a daily basis. The posts serve his interests.


    My guess is that he thinks it's funny how easy people are to fool and takes no small amount of enjoyment from the process. "Look, I made another masterpiece ! !" Then he even comes here posting brazenly, because he knows his supporters believe in him utterly. He posts another one right in the midst of the discussion from Jed-Mark. he, he, he

  • Think of it this way. The folks behind IH will very likely act rationally. They are highly experienced investors and businessmen. Cunning, but rational. Without an inducement, no rational actor would write a check for a cool $89 mill. In this instance, there was no inducement.


    There is an inducement here. If the device is real there is an overwhelming inducement; it would be lunacy not to pay. Let me explain.


    I.H. signed a contract agreeing to pay if the thing worked and Rossi transferred the IP. Assuming it does work, sooner or later that fact will become widely known. It will be headline news all over the world. I.H. and other license holder will soon be earning billions of dollars. Rossi will point out that I.H. reneged on their agreement, and they owe him $89 million. He will have ironclad proof of that. He will also be one of the most famous people in the world, able to hire the best lawyers there are. He will easily be able to win a lawsuit not just for triple damages, but for 10 times damages, or even to take the license back. He will be in a far stronger position in this scenario than he is today.

  • @Jed:


    I know we've gone 'round on this a few times. Based purely on the language of the contract, it would be lunacy for IH to pay the third installment. They (IH) are building a world-wide LENR strategy, which is very clear based on their IP angling. Once they had the information from Rossi, that is all they needed. And they got that after the second installment. They need nothing more from Rossi to execute their plan. The contract expressly allows them to make their own improvements and file their own patents. The third payment was never to be paid, and will never be paid. Rossi's mistake. Even if Rossi were to secure a treble damages judgment (which is quite difficult to do, and particularly here where the facts are not clear-cut), then no biggy. A $300 million judgment is inconsequential given that IH would be untied from Rossi and free to market their own wares to the world.

  • 1. The Lugano reports authors used data from before the time of the Optris thermal imaging camera existence as basis for their work



    Hello Boys,
    I would add some answers to the others that should appear on EW.


    Point 1. Dear Mr. Cole and Greenyer, this is what is called Scientific Literature. Human Progress is build by studying previous results of others and recording new results. Every scientific paper has citations of previous work.


    8. we used high emissivity paint to verify emissivity values selected (Aramco paint) at 1000ºC as recommended by the Optris manual and not done by the lugano team.


    Sirs ! Be serious if you are able ! No page of the Optris manual say to use "Aramco paint"( Aramco actually seems to be a company related to Oil extraction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Aramco)
    instead on page 71 and 72 Optris manual suggest to use their reference dots or a not well specified black paint.The Lugano team used the reference dots and successfully measured the emissivity of the Alumina pipes.



    2. In the Optris camera manual on page 42 it said to use 0.95 for Alumina, this was ignored by the lugano report authors


    Again in NO page of the manual is said to use that value for Alumina. On page 42 there are described the electrical connections. Alumina on Inconel (quite a similar situation to the Rossi Reactor) can be found on the datasheets of Scigene IR thermometers that have a sensitivity window from 8 to 14 micrometers
    www.scigiene.com/pdfs/428_InfraredThermometerEmissivitytablesrev.pdf
    "Ceramic. Alumina on Inconel. 800-2000 (427-1093) .69-.45"


    Also Flir would report similar values.


    Other points should appear on EW.

  • @Jed:


    I know we've gone 'round on this a few times. Based purely on the language of the contract, it would be lunacy for IH to pay the third installment. They (IH) are building a world-wide LENR strategy, which is very clear based on their IP angling. Once they had the information from Rossi, that is all they needed. And they got that after the second installment. They need nothing more from Rossi to execute their plan. The contract expressly allows them to make their own improvements and file their own patents. The third payment was never to be paid, and will never be paid. Rossi's mistake. Even if Rossi were to secure a treble damages judgment (which is quite difficult to do, and particularly here where the facts are not clear-cut), then no biggy. A $300 million judgment is inconsequential given that IH would be untied from Rossi and free to market their own wares to the world.


    Just to add to this. There is a reason why anyone with actual understand of business and/or contracts would strongly advise again a payment plan that meams that 90 percent of purchase price is paid a year or more after delivery and in particular without any collateral securing the payment and especially not for a granted license that cannot be be revoced because of non-payment (or breach of contract in general). The reason is that such a contract is doomed to end up in litigation over the final payment. This is in particular true where the sum is so large that the litigation cost is easily set-off by even a very modest return interest of the withhold payment.

  • I know we've gone 'round on this a few times. Based purely on the language of the contract, it would be lunacy for IH to pay the third installment. They (IH) are building a world-wide LENR strategy, which is very clear based on their IP angling. Once they had the information from Rossi, that is all they needed.


    I do not think you have experience in business. The contract says they will pay. If they fail to pay, and the product turns out to be worth billions or trillions of dollars, they will surely lose a lawsuit in the future and pay far more. They may lose everything. If the product actually works it would be crazy not to pay the full $89 million. It is a trivial sum compared to what they would earn from it. They would make that much every week, or even every day. There would be no point to risking the loss of it.


    There are other reasons they would pay --


    Most people in business do what they promise and honor their commitments because they are ethical. Because it is the right thing to do. And also because it would soon be common knowledge that they reneged. Other people would not do business with them. Their reputation would suffer. When you deal with a product worth billions, your reputation is worth far more than $89 million.


    All of this this follows even if the contract seems to allow them to escape from paying. Technical escape clauses would avail them nothing where reputation is at stake. Technically, Samsung could probably continue to manufacture Galaxy 7 cell phones. Laws and regulations would probably allow it. But their reputation has taken a hit and it would probably be destroyed. It is better to take the $10 billion loss than to permanently lose your reputation.


    What you are describing is the Donald Trump / Pirates of the Caribbean school of business ethics: Take what you can, give back nothing. This works when one or two predatory psychopaths do it, but if everyone in business did it, the system would collapse.

    • Official Post

    Trust, being predictable and being able to predict what will partner do is key to business. (Same for driving)


    https://www.schneier.com/books/liars_and_outliers/



    • In that summary not only you find good reason why IH should pay even if they could not.
    • And why they have not to pay even if they can, and even if it is costly to refuse to pay.
    • You also find the core problem of modern science revealed by cold fusion.

    Let us say it is a game. find the 3 justification :

    • Why if E-cat work IH have to pay, even if they cannot make a cent with it
    • Why if E-cat is fake IH have not to pay (they paid too much already), even if it is very costly, more than paying
    • Why scientific community failed to do it's job with LENR.
  • I do not think you have experience in business.


    I know at least a thing or two.



    The contract says they will pay. If they fail to pay, and the product turns out to be worth billions or trillions of dollars, they will surely lose a lawsuit in the future and pay far more.


    The outcome of the lawsuit has little if anything to do with the value of the product, or even whether it works or not. Just ask Abd.



    They may lose everything.


    They would likely lose nothing. The only way they lose is if Rossi successfully pierces Cherokee's corporate veil and/or if Darden/Vaughn are held personally liable. Both of these are highly unlikely, and they know it. If Rossi secures a judgment against IH, which also appears to be tenuous at this point, then IH can either pay the $89 million sum, and continue on with their world-wide strategy of marketing/licensing their own LENR solutions world-wide and/or Rossi's LENR solutions within their territory. And if Rossi secures a treble damages judgment (very unlikely given the fact scenario that we know about so far), then IH could either claim bankruptcy, or even pay the judgment and move on with their plan, given the billions that they will likely be able to command with their own LENR solutions world-wide and/or Rossi's LENR solutions within their territory.



    If the product actually works it would be crazy not to pay the full $89 million.


    Sorry, have to continue to disagree with you. Based on that contract, it would be crazy to pay the $89 under any scenario.



    It is a trivial sum compared to what they would earn from it.


    But they can earn billions anyway without paying it.



    They would make that much every week, or even every day.


    Yes, they would, even if not paying it.



    There would be no point to risking the loss of it.


    There is no risking of losing "it." There is not "it" to lose. They already have the knowledge.



    There are other reasons they would pay --


    Most people in business do what they promise and honor their commitments because they are ethical. Because it is the right thing to do. And also because it would soon be common knowledge that they reneged. Other people would not do business with them. Their reputation would suffer. When you deal with a product worth billions, your reputation is worth far more than $89 million.


    It boils down to you think these folks are boy scouts. I think they are hard-nosed businessmen. I've dealt with many of them. Outward appearances can be deceiving, and most always are.



    All of this this follows even if the contract seems to allow them to escape from paying.


    Sorry, none of it follows.



    Technical escape clauses would avail them nothing where reputation is at stake.


    Technical escapes are always the first to be taken. And in fact, that is what IH are taking before our eyes so far in the litigation.



    What you are describing is the Donald Trump / Pirates of the Caribbean school of business ethics: Take what you can, give back nothing. This works when one or two predatory psychopaths do it, but if everyone in business did it, the system would collapse.


    I can see you are upset about hard ball business tactics. I can understand that.

  • Sorry, have to continue to disagree with you. Based on that contract, it would be crazy to pay the $89 under any scenario.


    Bankers (UBS, Goldman..), Immo-Moguls (Trump), Investment-brokers (IH) never pay anything they can solve the money way. Top money lawyers make 500-1000$/hour and they solve the problem usually by back-door communication ('free masons', rotary..). You find them talking, while playing golf in a club with a decent membership tax of roughly 1-200'000$.


    This half way court story is very welcome to IH, as it will bleed out the 'mental distorted' AR and possibly will take him out of the game...


    AR should not invest in lawyers: He should pay a good PR company and attack!

  • Jed....."Rossi will point out that I.H. reneged on their agreement, and they owe him $89 million. He will have ironclad proof of that. He will also be one of the most famous people in the world, able to hire the best lawyers there are. He will easily be able to win a lawsuit not just for triple damages, but for 10 times damages, or even to take the license back. He will be in a far stronger position in this scenario than he is today. "...............


    Not so. The agreement is that Rossi was to transfer IP so it would work in the hands of IH. Just getting something to work much later without IH's approval of the GPT is not a valid argument for Rossi to win a suit. The suit is about the agreed contract and not about if LENR works or not.


    The fact that he disassemble the device after he was through with it and filed suit before IH's payment was in default is very telling.


    If he had what he claimed and actually transferred the IP while in NC there would be no need for him to virtually tear apart the LENR world by bringing suit without including data or any proof that IH approved the work in Miami as the GPT. Either of those would have avoided the mess.

  • Sirs ! Be serious if you are able ! No page of the Optris manual say to use "Aramco paint"( Aramco actually seems to be a company related to Oil extraction en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Aramco)
    instead on page 71 and 72 Optris manual suggest to use their reference dots or a not well specified black paint.The Lugano team used the reference dots and successfully measured the emissivity of the Alumina pipes.


    The paint in the Optris manual was unspecified, but the paint Used by the MFMP was specified: http://www.aremco.com/wp-conte…15/06/TechNote-840-CM.pdf



    Again in NO page of the manual is said to use that value for Alumina.


    See the Optris version of the ε below.
    I have emailed the source of your emissivity link, to find out from where their data came from. Lets see what they say.

  • If he had what he claimed and actually transferred the IP while in NC there would be no need for him to virtually tear apart the LENR world by bringing suit without including data or any proof that IH approved the work in Miami as the GPT. Either of those would have avoided the mess.


    Thankfully AR has not come close to tearing apart the LENR world. Most of the LENR researchers pay little attention to him, or find the whole matter a little distasteful. The people that are upset over the matter seem to be ones who learned about LENR through AR's demos, e.g., those who frequent E-Cat World. My best guess at this point is that they are a sheltered but vocal minority.

  • Quote from "'randombit0'"

    It is the spectral emissivity.... that must be integrated to obtain the single number that an IR camera needs.


    I'm torn between thinking one should not feed trolls, and thinking that a few people here would not have noticed the last three times randombit0 tried this and was shown to be saying things false.


    Indeed the single number an IR camera needs is therefore not the total emissivity as quoted in textbooks and used by the Lugano authors, and as (correctly) used by the Lugano authors to estimate (total) output power.


    It is the spectral emissivity weighted by the camera sensor spectral response and Planck response and integrated (how could it be otherwise?). And this is very different from the total emissivity (which is simply spectral emissivity integrated over all frequencies weighted by Plank response) as on all previous occasions randombit0 has refused to admit.


    so I'd like to know:
    Does she now agree with TC, MFMP, Bob H, GSVIT, paradigmnoia - (basically anyone outside Rossi's charmed circle who has looked at this) - that the camera number is very different from the total emissivity the Lugano authors used? Or is she still claiming - as she did repeatedly over a long period of patient explanation from several here - that there is only one temperature-dependent "emissivity" as indeed the Lugano authors fatally believed, and thereby showed their lack of understanding of the physics behind IR thermography?


    Trolls like word games, and while I'm always willing for randombitio to turn over a new leaf and join serious discussion, I no longer expect it. Therefore I'd expect some word game along the lines of "spectral emissivity integrated" which of course could be total emissivity, or band emissivity, or something completely weird according to how the integral is weighted. For her target audience here the distinction maybe will not matter: and she can continue to claim her false position that the "camera number" is the same as the total emissivity? Or have I done here and injustice and she will now admit her grave error, and that this was the same grave error the lugano authors made?


    I apologise for what might be considered a combative tone here. Paradigmnoia, and anyone else who has followed this, will understand why patience with randombit0 and her "hello boys" routine no longer seems appropriate.

  • The source of widely reported 'alumina on Inconel' and 'zirconia on Inconel' in emissivity charts is from Wade 1959, "Measurements of Total Hemispherical Emissivity of Several Stably Oxidized Metals and Some Refractory Oxide Coatings". (link to report below)
    Most emissivity charts using these above labels have not bothered to check the spectral range of these results, while in fact several have. Many emissivity charts are simply compilations of others, without any due diligence applied to the data contained in the borrowed data.


    "The results indicate values of total normal emissivity from 0.69 to 0.44 for alumina and from 0.62 to 0.44 for zirconia over the temperature range from 800°F to 2,0000°F." - page 8
    "The fact that the ceramics have fairly rough surfaces and are electrical insulators indicates diffuse emission. Thus, it is believed that the values of total normal emissivity can be taken as those for total hemispherical emissivity with little error." -page 8
    (emphasis mine)


    http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/n….nasa.gov/19980228304.pdf

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