Trick or Treat, Give The E-Cat Some Intergranular Hydrogen Filled Bubbles To Eat! (Happy Halloween!)

  • Axil,

    There is very solid evidence to suggest using "pure" Li7 and "pure" hydrogen (no deuterium whatsoever) isn't a prerequisite for excess heat production. As I've said before, all of the most successful replicators used ordinary non-enriched LiAlH4 and ordinary hydrogen gas (that would have had some deuterium). Using these less than isotopically pure substances, massive excess heat has been produced. We also know that Rossi has generated massive excess heat using hydrogen generated via electrolysis from ordinary water (which would have some deuterium), non-enriched LiAlH4, and common hydrogen from a tank. It is plausible that in some experiments he may have added some additional Li7. However, I have heard from a very good source that in the past he had success with ordinary, non-enriched Alfa Aesar brand LiAlH4 and nanoshell passivated lithium.

    My thinking is that the number one reason why replicators fail to produce excess heat is due to the lack of hydrogen absorption and the production of intergranular bubbles. Probably, especially when nickel with a high surface area is used, much more hydrogen is adsorbed onto the surface than is ever absorbed. I think this is likely for a few reasons including the fact that most replicators (although a few have with great success) do not vacuum their fuel. And, according to Me356, having a secondary source of hydrogen in addition to LiAlH4 is also important. I think this is because the best way to maximize absorption is to keep increasing the pressure periodically after absorption flatlines. My guess is that when using only powders as a hydrogen source, the addition of LiH (HUGE SAFETY WARNING HERE) could provide a BOOST of hydrogen pressure at just over 700C. If elemental Li were added, there would be no boost at higher temperatures and at lower temperatures it would compete with nickel for hydrogen.

    I'm not going to say that keeping all the isotopes 100% pure wouldn't help, at least a little. But I think 95% of the problem is NOT isotopic purity but the lack of BUBBLE FORMATION. If we can produce these bubbles, then we can produce more excess heat than we can practically use!

  • Why does Piantelli use deuterium to stop reactor meltdowns? Please explain the mechanism involved.



    "Piantelli has an exciting story to tell of another experiment that, for few hours, was out of control. It was sometime around September 1993, before Piantelli-Focardi group’s first published paper on the subject. Around 7 in the evening, he looked at the monitor for the experiment. Something didn’t look right. The temperature was increasing rapidly. He wasn’t sure what to do. Should he kill the experiment, and if so, how would he stop it?A rapidly increasing temperature in an enclosed steel container could be a big, big problem. He was afraid. He wondered whether he should leave the building. Instead he called Focardi in Milano—at 2 in the morning—and asked, “What should I do?” This was before Piantelli knew about the poisoning effect of deuterium. But Focardi came up with a workable idea: introduce nitrogen. And it worked. It stopped the uncontrolled temperature rise and killed the experiment.Piantelli didn’t know how hot the experiment had gotten before he killed it because the monitor eventually blacked out. However, the metal thermocouples inside the cell melted. This told him that the temperature exceeded 1450 C. Understandably, he was angry because these experiments take a long time to run and he had to abandon it prematurely.“It’s not good when they run too hot,” Piantelli said. “400 C is a much better range.”

    We might ask ourselves, if too much deuterium can stop a reactor meltdown, then a certain percentage would produce stable reactor operation. The more basic question is what fundamental physics principle produces isotopic reaction poisoning. There are parameters that control fuel performance and a reductionist scientific experimental exploration of this issue might provide answers. Such experimental Insight provided by these types of experiments will also help select the proper hydride fuel storage medium and the nature of the metal powder surfacing.

  • These bubbles can vary in size from picometers to nanometers to larger sizes. When they form the pressure can already be enormously high. After quenching, they can go even higher until LENR happens or the bubbles rupture.

    H. Wipf*
    Institut fÏr FestkÎrperphysik, Technische UniversitÌt Darmstadt, Hochschulstra

    One quote from the above paper in regards to an experiment in regards to copper. The graph in my post was not from this paper.

    A non-equilibrium situation, as discussed above, will be
    found in the wall of a fusion reactor due to implantation
    of hydrogen isotopes. A second interesting example is
    quenching, as demonstrated in the study of Wampler
    etal. [15] who annealed copper samples at high temperatures
    in hydrogen gas atmospheres (a temperature of 800 C and a
    hydrogen gas pressure of 35 bar, for instance, yielded an
    equilibrium hydrogen concentration in the sample of about
    200 at-ppm according to Fig. 6). At the end of the annealing
    procedure, the samples were quenched to room temperature
    or below in order to avoid hydrogen diffusion (and
    desorption). After the quench (and under ambient pressure
    conditions), there is again a non-equilibrium situation in
    which the equilibrium hydrogen gas pressure for the
    hydrogen concentration is extremely high (for the above
    concentration of 200 at-ppm, for instance,p
    exceeds 50 kbar at room temperature).
    As an immediate consequence of this
    fact, Wampler
    et al.
    [15] observed the formation of
    high-pressure hydrogen gas bubbles in their samples around
    room temperature where hydrogen di¡usion was fast enough
    to allow hydrogen accumulation in bubbles within reason-
    ably short times. A further result was that bubbles were
    preferentially formed at grain boundaries, and that the
    observed bubbles had diameters from 0.4 to 6
    um. Finally, the hydrogen gas pressures inside the bubbles were estimated
    to be between 1 and 2 kbar.


    For the record, I really am not too interested in theory except for how it can apply to making the technology work. I think it is now obvious that a high level of loading and the production of these bubbles near the surface is critical. I think a lack of loading and production of these bubbles is the number one failure mechanism.

    Interestingly, I think high loading may not always create these bubbles. It might be good to use nickels that already have picometer size defects where the absorbed hydrogen can collect. Ultrasound irradiation of metal can cause such defects. I also suspect that metal particles crashing into each other at high speeds in a slurry may do the same thing.

    • Official Post

    Worth pointing out David that there are hundreds of scientific papers which accept that very high gas pressures inside lattice defects are 'normal'. It is counter-intuitive that this ultra-high pressure environment can be created when the ambient pressure is so low, but it also shows us that at the atomic/molecular scale materials do no always behave as we expect.

  • Please read this patent.

    Method and apparatus for generating neutrons from metals under thermal shock

    An extended version is available on the European patent server. Although it does not specify bubbles, their theory is the same as I suggest. They discuss the huge pressures that can be created.

    "You do not have to implant bubbles during some molten process. The absorption of a high level of hydrogen and then cooling the solid metal will tighten the lattice around the interstitial spots, cause protons to start grouping together, and form bubbles. So the slightly elevated pressure from the environment inside the reactor (lets say 5 bar) is increased significantly once the lattice compresses upon cooling. Then, when you heat the hydrogenated metal rapidly, the pressure inside these bubbles increases yet again.
    As noted above, the generation of neutrons from the metal hydrides is caused by the reaction of deuterium atoms that were infused within the metal. The reaction is caused by the intense pressures created within the crystalline structure of the hydrides as the crystalline lattices rapidly change phases due to the exposure of a rapid temperature increase. The interstitial void spaces of the crystalline lattice are generally on the order of approximately 4.2 Angstrom, and defects in the lattice may be on the order of 10 Angstrom. By infusing the metal at the minimum temperature, the amount of deuterium absorbed by the metal is maximized. In such an infusion, the deuterium can group together in clusters and reside within voids or defects in the metal's crystalline structure. Normally, as pressure acting on the metal hydrides is increased, the deuterium will simply diffuse out of the metal. However, by quickly increasing the temperature of the metal hydrides, the pressure acting on the metal increases faster than the rate at which the deuterium can diffuse out. Thus, the deuterium becomes trapped within the voids or defects, generating a significant amount of pressures and temperatures within the crystal. The temperatures and pressures are at such high levels that if two or more deuterium atoms are in the same void or defect, a reaction can occur. For instance, it is estimated that deuterium infused titanium undergoing the above-stated thermal shock process will generate pressures in excess of 200,000 psi within its internal crystalline lattice structure."

    Now, I don't know if you think 200,000 PSI is high or low or somewhere in between. It seems high to me. I think that these processes of boosting the pressure of absorbed hydrogen in the lattice (via both cooling and heating) is what triggers at least one variety of LENR. I'm not saying it is the ONLY mechanism. But I think this is the predominant mechanism in the E-Cat except for the reaction products that interact with lithium to produce additional excess heat.

  • If pores are needed there are ways to obtain them. I would suggest to also try looking on the so-called "pore forming agents" which are often used in heterogeneous catalyst production. Alkali metal carbonates are also used for this, for example.

    However if hydrogen loading alone is able to form new pores and voids in a certain material then the same material may not be able to hold structural integrity for very long or even at all. This is one of the problems that plagued reproducibility in Pd-D LENR as far as I know. For example, Palladium expands significantly under loading (~10% volume) and eventually cracks, pulverizes, relieving pressure that may have formed inside the pores and crevices formed under loading. This is why pure Pd rarely worked and why only that from certain producers, which contained specific impurities, did.

    With this in mind, it is also worth noting that high loading as Edmund Storms also observes - at least for Pd - is only needed initially to permanently alter the material. Once the proper cavities are formed a high loading is not necessary anymore. So this could be hinting at the possibility of being able to form a properly working material before hydrogen is even added.

    On a loosely related note I wonder if by coating a metal that expands a lot when absorbing hydrogen with a very hard one (perhaps a non-metal, like a proton conducting ceramic) that does not expand at all an even higher pressure at the interface between both materials could be achieved.

    • Official Post

    On a loosely related note I wonder if by coating a metal that expands a lot when absorbing hydrogen with a very hard one (perhaps a non-metal, like a proton conducting ceramic) that does not expand at all an even higher pressure at the interface between both materials could be achieved.

    It may be that the inclusion of transition metals within a zeolite framework can do this - not so much a coating process, as one dependent on the percolation of metal particles into voids in the Zeolite.

  • It may be that the inclusion of transition metals within a zeolite framework can do this - not so much a coating process, as one dependent on the percolation of metal particles into voids in the Zeolite.

    I recall that some (Ahern, Swartz, and I think some Japanese LENR reseachers) have used a material formed of PdNi alloy nanoislands in a ZrO2 oxide matrix with apparently positive results. However the process was rather complicated and required expensive equipment. Anyway, perhaps something along the lines of what I previously described also happened there upon hydrogen loading?

  • Energy is produced when a particle is confined to a small space. The smaller the space, the higher the energy. High energy in a particle in a confining volume means high pressure. A particle in a very small volume will become very energetic and produce a very high pressure.

    This compression is not solely a measurement issue, it is a physical process that produces increased energy in the gas.

    A metal lattice with very many very small cavities where gas can accumulate is the most LENR active. The more gas that enters the nanocavities, the more energy that is generated by new gas atoms that enter the cavity because the old gas reduces the effective storage volume of the nanocavity.

    One the gas enters the cavity, it will not exit becayse it will become entangled in a condinsate. This is why all the gas atoms must be the same isotope. This is where superconductivity comes in...the condinsate nature of the gas.

    There are manufacturing processes that produce COTS catalysts with an abundance of very small cavities which are very much smaller than the lattice material that most LENR experimenters now use.

    The best catalyst for LENR is the lattice with the most and the smallest set of nanocavities.

  • Axil, you told about hot fusion recipe ? Lenr uses it same way ?

    The goal of the gas compression process is to produce metalized hydrogen. This special state of matter is a superconductor and produces anisotropic magnetism which will destabilize nucleons and release energy from sub atomic particle breakup via the weak force.

    I posted how this works here as follows:

    Can we talk about Homlid?

    Remember that anisotropic magnetism keeps the quarks confined in the proton and neutron. When this sub atomic quark confinement magnetism is disrupted, the quarks fly apart and create mesons.

    LENR primary mechanism is a fission process of quarks whereas hot fusion brings quarks together.

    A secondary LENR reaction does produce fusion and that happens from muon catalyzation.

  • Yes Axil, last Airbus patent recently updated and well described seems to run like that..
    It could be they are close to Rossi's efficiency therefore with any lithium.


    Lithium reduces the pressure required to metalize the hydride by over 400%. Lithium is used to facilitate metalization of the hydride when the size of the cavities in the catalyst is large...too large to metalize pure hydrogen alone.

  • The best catalyst for LENR is the lattice with the most and the smallest set of nanocavities.

    As far as I know, most people do not think the nanocavities themselves catalyze the reaction. They do not take part in it. They do two things: they expose the particles to gas, and they keep the particles from sticking together . . . from the heat. Sintered. That's the word.

    In other words, the nanocavities help for prosaic reasons.

    That is what people say. I wouldn't know.

  • As far as I know, most people do not think the nanocavities themselves catalyze the reaction. They do not take part in it. They do two things: they expose the particles to gas, and they keep the particles from sticking together . . . from the heat. Sintered. That's the word.

    In other words, the nanocavities help for prosaic reasons.

    That is what people say. I wouldn't know.

    Check out Mizuno's surface preparation in slides titled

    SEM of Ni Mesh BEFORE Activation
    SEM of Ni Mesh AFTER Activation…/YoshinoHreplicable-1.pdf
    A bump and a cavity are topologically equivalent. they are both a gas confinement mechanism via "Anderson localization".


    Piantelli theory - avoiding absorption

  • There are disinformation agents posting on various sites claiming that my statements about intragranular hydrogen bubbles are completely false and that high pressure bubbles do not form in metals from absorption.

    They are flat out lying.

    On many nights I spend hours reading through all sorts of papers. I've found dozens of references to hydrogen bubble formation in metals -- including nickel, steel, titanium, copper, and others.

    Here are just a few links to references about hydrogen bubble formation in copper. They represent a small fraction of the papers that can be found online in a very short time.

    Interestingly, copper is much more difficult to load with hydrogen than nickel. But the high pressures and temperatures in Andrea Rossi's first systems probably allowed for bubble formation in both the nickel and copper powders.

    I'm convinced that the production of high pressure intragranular hydrogen bubbles is the the key to the E-Cat. For the record, I'm NOT saying they are the only location where LENR is happening. But I think they represent the location where the majority of reactions are taking place -- not including the reactions between emissions and lithium on the surface of the particles.

    1) The Hydrogen Effect in Copper
    AT & T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill NJ 07974-2070 (USA)
    (Received October 20, 1987; in revised form November 30, 1987…icle/pii/092150938890069X

    2) The role of hydrogen in copper
    Rolf Sandström
    https://www.stralsakerhetsmynd…C3%B6rvar/Kompletteringar v%C3%A5ren 2015/Bilaga 5 1420051 - PM The role of hydrogen in copper.pdf
    (Pressure inside bubbles in estimated to be 400 Mpa!)

    3) Hydrogen absorption on copper and implication for long-term safety
    Professor Hannu Hänninen
    Aalto University School of Engineering…/dokument/h._hanninen.pdf
    (More documentation about hydrogen bubbles in copper!)

    4) Hydrogen depth profile in phosphorus-doped, oxygen-free copper after cathodic charging
    Åsa MartinssonEmail authorRolf Sandström
    (400Mpa hydrogen bubbles documented again!)

    More about hydrogen bubble formation in copper.


    For the record, I don't think just producing hydrogen bubbles is enough. A "triggering" procedure probably is required to boost the pressure even higher. This consists of cooling the lattice so that it contracts around the bubbles (increasing pressure) and then suddenly heating (thermal shocking) the fuel so the pressures inside the cavities are so great quantum tunneling takes place between hydrogen atoms and/or hydrogen and nickel atoms.

  • A cavitation based bubble compression process using a mix of Lithium 7 fluoride and Lithium 7 hydride salt using ultrasound might also work. A reaction using a nickel impeller should also be attempted.

    Also see

    Method of generating energy by acoustically induced cavitation fusion and reactor therefor

    US 4333796 A


    Two different cavitation fusion reactors (CFR's) are disclosed. Each comprises a chamber containing a liquid (host) metal such as lithium or an alloy thereof. Acoustical horns in the chamber walls operate to vary the ambient pressure in the liquid metal, creating therein small bubbles which are caused to grow to maximum sizes and then collapse violently in two steps. In the first stage the bubble contents remain at the temperature of the host liquid, but in the second stage the increasing speed of collapse causes an adiabatic compression of the bubble contents, and of the thin shell of liquid surrounding the bubble. Application of a positive pressure on the bubble accelerates this adiabatic stage, and causes the bubble to contract to smaller radius, thus increasing maximum temperatures and pressures reached within the bubble. At or near its minimum radius the bubble generates a very intense shock wave, creating high pressures and temperatures in the host liquid. These extremely high pressures and temperatures occur both within the bubbles and in the host liquid, and cause hydrogen isotopes in the bubbles and liquid to undergo thermonuclear reactions. In one type of CFR the thermonuclear reaction is generated by cavitation within the liquid metal itself, and in the other type the reaction takes place primarily within the bubbles. The fusion reactions generate energy that is absorbed as heat by the liquid metal, and this heat is removed from the liquid by conduction through the acoustical horns to an external heat exchanger, without any pumping of the liquid metal

    Another way to create a cavitation bubble is to use an electric arc, preferably a very low voltage high amperage arc as used by Mills. Mills has shown that the use of a low voltage high amperage arc eliminates x-ray production such as produced in the defkalion system. Such reactions are produced in current systems

    Notice that the Plasma-Assisted Reaction uses a voltage of between 200 and 800 and therefore produces a huge amount of x-rays, something that Mills in using a low voltage arc does not generate.

    A laser can also be used because the fluoride salt is clear and colorless. A suspension of nickel nanoparticles in the fluoride salt can be irradiated by a laser. Such a method does produce LENR reactions when done in water. A similar reaction is a fluoride salt might be more gainful.