One of the ex-Thermacore staff is here in the UK. He told me the same story. Shit happens.
I heard about it when it was done, from Mallove, Ahern and the people at Thermacore. I did not hear much about in the years after that.
Shit does indeed happen.
QuoteThe mainstream never heard about this because it was not published, because no mainstream journal or magazine will report on cold fusion.To summarize, this test was not repeated and it is not well known because of rabid, ignorant opposition to academic freedom and science by people like you, with your attitude, who find excuses to ignore or reject facts and experimental evidence.
Explain to me why no mainstream journal would publish proof of a revolutionary new technology. Many journals would leap at the chance to be first. Many researchers would leap at a chance to replicate, just as dozens did when P&F made their claims in 1989. First they leaped and then they crashed because they could not replicate P&F despite your protestations to the contrary. Hell, P&F could not replicate P&F despite millions spent on that effort.
People like me? I am all for publication of cold fusion research whether positive or negative results, as long as it is well done, properly documented, and properly peer reviewed. Publishing nonsense though, like the claim to powerful explosions from a nuclear source which were NEVER followed up by anybody? Even that I favor. People should have the opportunity to decide for themselves whether such obvious nonsense is real or not. I suppose, Jed, that you think Papp really made energy from noble gases and would now be famous and a zillionaire had it not been for Feynman? I can see why mainline scientists give such crappy thinking so little attention!
Explain to me why no mainstream journal would publish proof of a revolutionary new technology.
Why are you asking me? You would have to ask the editors. You can read the exchange between the editors of Sci. Am. and me to get a feel for it. Better yet, look in the mirror. You reject all cold fusion results even though you know nothing about them and you refuse to read the papers. Why are you surprised that editors do the same thing? Anti-intellectual, anti-science attitudes are common everywhere in society, and always have been, even among scientists.
See:
http://lenr-canr.org/wordpress/?p=872
http://lenr-canr.org/AppealandSciAm.pdf
http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MalloveEthepseudos.pdf
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJhownaturer.pdf
People like me? I am all for publication of cold fusion research whether positive or negative results, as long as it is well done, properly documented, and properly peer reviewed.
What a strange coincidence! The editors and funding agency people say the very same thing you do! Then the editors reject papers without peer review, and the funding agencies not only refuse money, they fire people who talk about cold fusion.
You sound like the polite white people of Atlanta, Georgia circa 1970 who would never think of joining the KKK, and who bemoaned the fact that black people just were not qualified for jobs, and black kids seemed to drop out of school for no apparent reason. It couldn't have been because segregated black public schools got a fraction of the funding white schools got, and they were so overcrowded the kids had to go in two shifts, morning or afternoon. It couldn't have been because the buildings were filthy, dangerous and without labs, equipment or a library. No, there had to be some mysterious deep reason, probably race related, and those nice white folks were not going to look for it either.
You sound like the polite white people of Atlanta, Georgia circa 1970 who would never think of joining the KKK, and who bemoaned the fact that black people just were not qualified for jobs, and black kids seemed to drop out of school for no apparent reason. It couldn't have been because segregated black public schools got a fraction of the funding white schools got, and they were so overcrowded the kids had to go in two shifts, morning or afternoon. It couldn't have been because the buildings were filthy, dangerous and without labs, equipment or a library. No, there had to be some mysterious deep reason, probably race related, and those nice white folks were not going to look for it either.
Well, that seems to be a bit off topic! 
Not defending Mary, but while he is probably one of the few "white people" posting here 
, he is definitely not polite, and I think he is from San Diego, California, not Atlanta.
That is awful ugly, not the whole picture and should not be attributed to "sounding like" or anything else when comparing a Forum member.
Well, that seems to be a bit off topic!
Think again. It is not off topic. It describes her mentality well. The people who take a leading role oppressing other people or destroying academic freedom are often the ones who bleat about how terrible things are they just don't understand why those kids are not educated, or like Yugo, they just can't imagine why papers are not published and research is not funded. It is a way of denying their own responsibility. It directs people's attention away from their own culpability. Mary Yugo says she is favor of peer reviewed papers, she and others like her can't be blamed because there are no papers. Saying is enough! Her attitude belies her words, but you are not supposed to think about her attitude. You are not supposed to read what editors and publishers actually said and did, in the links above. They make the right noises and they pay lip service to academic freedom and science, so let's ignore the fact they are the ones strangling that freedom.
You should not believe Yugo and the Sci. Am. editors oh-so-innocent "I'm just a scientist doing my job" shtick. You should not believe that the white politicians and business leaders in Atlanta did not realize what they were doing in 1970.
That is awful ugly, not the whole picture and should not be attributed to "sounding like" or anything else when comparing a Forum member.
You bet it's ugly! And you are right, the whole picture is a lot worse. Here is a taste of it:
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MalloveEclassicnas.pdf
Yugo does sound just like those oh-so-innocent editors and funding agencies who swore they were in favor of academic freedom, which they destroyed the lives and careers of dozens of scientists. It is not a coincidence. She and Robert Park knew nothing, read nothing, and boasted about their ignorance. They have the same mindset.
People who cause the most harm often play the innocent, as I showed in the example from 1970.
Oh by the way, Robert Park does not consider himself or his work "ugly" or uncalled for. He brags about "rooting out and firing" people and "ending cold fusion research" (his words). And those white people in 1970 -- many of them are still alive. I know what they think. I assure they are proud of their work. They think they did a great job administering the school system. They think nowadays we are wasting money on undeserving "minorities" who "don't want to learn." They are proud, not apologetic. I assure you, all of the people who suppressed cold fusion and destroyed academic freedom are proud of what they did. They think it was good. Yugo is one of them in attitude and in her willful ignorance. I am sure she feels great about herself, so don't accuse me of insulting her. By her standards, I am praising her. She brags about the things I accuse her of!
We all let loose sometimes. Been there, done that. Tomorrow, this never happened.
Alan,
I really think regardless of who the user is, anyone that uses innuendo that is either racial or religious and stating things, using words that plainly have no place in this forum. There is zero connection between this original posters complaint and the user it is directed to. I have seen peoples lives destroyed due to discrimination and religion. Doubling down on it does not make it right. It is embarrassing that it is being allowed to stand. I really do not know what else to say.
We all let loose sometimes. Been there, done that. Tomorrow, this never happened.
Bear in mind that the scientists who were savagely attacked by the Washington Post and fired were friends of mine. Some of them close friends. I worked with them. I know what happened to them, their families, their marriages and careers. I gave them money to try to tide over the worst effects. So this is not some history I read in a book. These are things I heard in person and on the telephone, from people weeping in shame and anger. Do not patronize me or suggest I will forget about this tomorrow.
Imagine you had personally known black people in Atlanta in 1970 who were beaten by police because they wanted their kids to be able to go school full time -- not just in the morning or afternoon. They wanted the schools to have decent bathrooms and science labs. How would you like it if I patted you on the head and said: "Surely you are exaggerating. Your friends weren't that badly treated. Everyone has to vent. You'll get over it tomorrow."?
Yes, I am quite sure that Yugo's attitude and corrosive willful ignorance is same as the editors and Sci. Am. and the other jackasses who destroyed cold fusion. I have been dealing with hundreds of these people for decades now. I know them when I see them. I sure as hell know better than most people. I have first hand experience. This is not some honest misunderstanding or the "rejection cascade" that Abd describes. This was deliberate, calculated suppression of academic freedom and experiments. The editors at the Post, Nature, Sci. Am. New Scientist and many others published outrageous lies and they cooked up and published fake data to convince the public that cold fusion is bunk. This was the destruction of people's lives, done by people such as Robert Park because -- like Yugo -- they were certain that cold fusion is "pathological science," "lunacy" and "criminal fraud" (his words) and an affront to real science. That's why they did it. Not one of those people ever bothered to learn the first thing about the research, any more than Yugo has. You can see for yourself that their assertions about it were factually wrong.
anyone that uses innuendo that is either racial or religious and stating things,
This is not innuendo! Innuendo is "an allusive or oblique remark or hint, typically a suggestive or disparaging one." I am not alluding to anything or being oblique or indirect. I am saying this as directly and clearly as I can.
I know what Yugo says and I know it is the same as what the Sci. Am. editors said to me. Read it and see for yourself. You can see that Yugo is willfully ignorant. Look at the nonsense she spews. Or ask her yourself. She brags that she has not read the literature!
I also know what happened in Atlanta. I live here, and although I was not here in 1970 my brother was a public school teacher here. If you do not see the parallels between savage oppression of civil rights and the savage oppression of academic freedom and science, you need to think about what freedom means, and why it is important. Actions have consequences. Lives were ruined by savage oppression in 1970s, and in 1990s science was derailed. We might have cold fusion automobiles by now if it were not for the likes of Robert Park and the editors. HE is to blame. THEY are to blame. Not the researchers. Those people have to answer for delaying the most important technology in history, because they jumped to the conclusion it was a mistake and they refused to look again.
using words that plainly have no place in this forum.
I am going to assume you mean that Yugo should not have accused Ahern, Mallove and the others at Lincoln labs of criminal fraud. I agree.
If you are saying it is okay for her to attack these people, but I am out of line for pointing out how despicable she is for doing this, I disagree.
Jed,
I hope you realize- that like you, I feel strongly about these things. I did not see the other poster mentioned in the E. Mallove pdf. So to me, it did not associate.
As a personal note one of my friends tried to jump off a bridge because of it (racial discrimination). When George Wallace was shot I was at the protest. I have a devout Egyptian relative.
I struggle with my own lot in life. I am not being patronizing, nor dismissive.
I did not see the other poster mentioned in the E. Mallove pdf. So to me, it did not associate.
The other poster -- Yugo -- accused Ahern, Mallove and the other people at Lincoln labs at MIT of committing criminal fraud by making a false claim about the experiment. Yugo knows nothing about this research but she is sure it never happened. That is exactly what the editors who reject all papers without peer review say. And, like the editors, she says she wants to see peer-reviewed papers and isn't it a shame their aren't any. Oh and she wants to see good research, and isn't it a shame there isn't any. IT IS BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE HER!!!
Again and again in history, the people who are most guilty -- the very people who are responsible for oppression -- are the ones who pretend they know nothing and say it would never occur to them to hurt anyone.
It is a new age where facts are irrelevant and only spin and illusion provide the context for belief. If the salesperson makes a case out of whole cloth as is their way, and it makes the listener feel good, then that line of thought is granted the status of truth by those who want to beleive. Feeling good is what matters. Knowing what your talking about means less than nothing, its that good feeling the counts. Like so many others today, Mary is a sales person who makes up her own facts. In the old days, this would be considered a vice, a betrayal of trust, but in this new modern era, inspired spinning is considered a virtue, a means to an end. In this end, what matters is how the words make you feel, and objective truth is ignored unless the facts bite you in the butt as they sometimes want to do. Then new words are invented to paper over, deny, ignore, and redirect the consequences of the facts to get back to the good old feeling once again.
Since no-one asked for moderation of this thread I have not applied any. But please, no more discussion on more personal/political matters. We all know who and what some posters are - but enough! Further off-topic commentary will be junked.
I heard about it when it was done, from Mallove, Ahern and the people at Thermacore. I did not hear much about in the years after that.
Shit does indeed happen.
Could it be that the military sat on Thermacore at some senior non-technical funding-related level and asked them to 'knock it off' so they could investigate the potential for weaponisation? We would never know (probably) if that was what happened.
Yugo does sound just like those oh-so-innocent editors and funding agencies who swore they were in favor of academic freedom, which they destroyed the lives and careers of dozens of scientists. It is not a coincidence. She and Robert Park knew nothing, read nothing, and boasted about their ignorance. They have the same mindset.
Why do you study physics/chemistry etc..? Really to become an editor in a mainstream scientific journal??
Industry has along history in locking out people, which are of no use for them. Japanese workers get a window seat and a daily newspaper... (BCC Switzerland did this too, some 10 years ago..) Today in the old Swiss companies you become librarian. But..
If you are willing and faithful, then they will delegate you into "politics" or commission agent work and you will occupy "key positions", just to keep your pension fund (that usually is very high..).
Could it be that the military sat on Thermacore at some senior non-technical funding-related level and asked them to 'knock it off' so they could investigate the potential for weaponisation? We would never know (probably) if that was what happened.
Thus all these "gray color people" are sock puppets of the industrial segment, which rules the western countries. The will not tolerate any new ideas, as long as they cannot understand how their profits and power will change. Thus blocking is the safest reaction.
Could it be that the military sat on Thermacore at some senior non-technical funding-related level and asked them to 'knock it off' so they could investigate the potential for weaponisation?
I doubt it. The people who did it spoke about it freely to me and others. It wasn't kept secret, as you might expect a military project would be. They said the management was freaked out because the heat was so extreme. The reactor was damaged. Management decided it was dangerous and should not be pursued, and that was that.
This is merely my speculation but perhaps the managers dismissed it as having no commercial potential. People opposed to cold fusion usually say something like: "it is probably chemical, or a mistake, and even if it is nuclear, it cannot possibly be of any practical use." They do not give a reason, except to say that it is not commercialized yet so that proves it cannot be commercialized (the Mary Yugo hypothesis).
/* We might have cold fusion automobiles by now if it were not for the likes of Robert Park and the editors. HE is to blame. THEY are to blame. Not the researchers.*/
But which researchers? The researchers active in cold fusion research like Milley, Storm, Nagel, McKubre or Hagelstein and Swartz are indeed heros of explorative science. But the MIT and another universities are full of another researchers (Moniz, Dresselhaus etc.), who actively hindered the cold fusion research, not to say about its ignorance on behalf of their own pet projects in nuclear and renewable industry. And the peer-review referees and editor board members of journals are usually occupied with actual researchers. The cold fusion rejection is primarily the failure of mainstream science community, which controls the editorial staff at journals, not the actual censors in journals.
/* It is a new age where facts are irrelevant and only spin and illusion provide the context for belief. Feeling good is what matters. Knowing what your talking about means less than nothing, its that good feeling the counts.*/
There are basically two dual types of ignorants. First type hinders and denies the spreading of all inconvenient information, the second one doesn't distinguish the facts and presents them all no matter of their actual significance in context given, thus contributing to the informational noise. You may guess which group you're occasionally belonging into... 
Jed:
QuoteThe other poster -- Yugo -- accused Ahern, Mallove and the other people at Lincoln labs at MIT of committing criminal fraud by making a false claim about the experiment.
While I did poopoo optimistic results claimed by Ahern and probably Mallove, where did I say anything about Lincoln Labs at MIT? I never heard of them before this. And where exactly do I accuse Ahern and Mallove of criminal fraud? Are you simply making that up? I admit I sometimes consume some rum while posting but I sure don't recall posting what you allege. Show it to me if you don't mind. maryyugo is an unusual sign on name. Shouldn't be hard to find the cites.
I don't think asking a scientific technology claimant to demonstrate robust and incontrovertible proof of a controversial theory is analogous to lynching Blacks and the KKK. Perhaps you've been into a bit too much alcohol yourself?
