Cold Fusion Times : Previous US gov't classified &other, documents from early &mid-years of the Cold Fusion coverup now public through FOIA &FairUse

  • Cold Fusion Times just published reference to old cold fusion documents


    Thanks to Michael Swartz for his work on CFT


    http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html

  • Question is: is there anything in the 3 reports worth classifying? The first about "verification", found nothing...or did I miss something? Even mentions that LENR is probably a "chimera". The second appears to be a playbook for others to follow to test certain theories. The last was Nagel's summation of progress at the time (1996). In his conclusion he is not sure the effect is real.


  • Los Alamos National Laboratory, unclassified. There is only cover pages, and an abstract. This was work primarily looking for neutrons. There is no description of measuring heat. Failure could be predicted. There may have been no paper at all, merely a description of a talk to be given at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in 1990.


    Other than the first two papers, the second of which was already released and known and hosted on lenr-canr.org, there is not of much interest here, except for history buffs who want to see all the blind alleys and dead ends of the time.

  • thanks for the analysis, so there is no real news.


    I've surveyed only the "neutron paper" (joke) , where experts in horses demand evidence of birds through their horse manure. nothing uncommon for horse experts like physicists are.

  • Jed is a smart guy and a great writer, but we shouldn't take everything he says as gospel truth. Like the rest of us, he doesn't know everything and can be wrong.


    Nothing was quoted here from Jed. I mentioned his practice on uploads, that's all. He will generally upload any paper related to LENR -- these would be -- on author request. Sometimes if the paper is clearly copyrighted, and the suggested upload is "as published" rather than a preprint or final draft, he won't.

  • Jed is a smart guy and a great writer, but we shouldn't take everything he says as gospel truth. Like the rest of us, he doesn't know everything and can be wrong.



    Jed is well advised to avoiding opinionating about things that can be verified at a later time. His track record in dispensing truth is turning out to be not so good.

  • But Jed said that nothing in cold fusion was classified and that it was all open and accessible to all.


    As noted above, these documents are all unclassified. The Russian one is copyright. I have copies of these but I have not uploaded them. I probably just did not bother to, or I asked the authors and they never responded.


    I should make sure they are all in the index.

  • Jed is well advised to avoiding opinionating about things that can be verified at a later time. His track record in dispensing truth is turning out to be not so good.


    If you are talking about Rossi, then you are wrong. Exhibit 5 proves that everything that I claimed is true, and it proves that everything that you and Gluck say is bullshit. You deny that, but an objective person not blinded by wishful thinking will see that I am right. You and Gluck have never addressed any of the issues in Exhibit 5, except to claim that the whole document is a lie. I have seen Rossi's own data, and it is exactly as described in that document.

  • IH Fanboy wrote:


    If Jed said that, he was having a bad day, or meant, "nothing particularly important". In the list, the second document was originally classified (and it is probably the only truly significant document, and it was already released before this, and it has been discussed here.) None of the others was classified; if not available, it would be because the authors did not take steps to make them available. The first document, a quite good Nagel review, was unclassified, though later published in a journal. The Russian paper was copyright, so the U.S. government copy was for internal use only, as a translation of a copyrighted paper. The announcement of this on coldfusiontimes was overblown.


    There is a lot of material that is journal-published which is copyright, but these are not secret, they are actually published. And you can get access to them if you need them.


    As Jed had written, none was classified, and he is correct about limited distribution vs classification, so I struck the incorrect comments above.

  • Exhibit 5 does not prove that the whole year long test was a giant hoax. All it does is ask some important questions that we need specific answers for. As of this time, I have not read a response from Andrea Rossi or Penon. These questions are simply a small number out of hundreds that need to be specifically addressed to Andrea Rossi. My hope is that if he does not answer these and many more questions during this phase, he will provide the answers during the trial. Once answers are provided -- even if they are legally forced out of him -- then we can make an assessment knowing BOTH sides of the story.


    Please, just continue calling bulls*it on all of us who don't fall in line like obedient brainwashed zombies with the TOTAL GIGANTIC HOAX WITH ZERO EXCESS HEAT narrative quite yet before we have Andrea Rossi's and Penon's responses on a huge number of issues. I'll fully admit that there is a LOT to be suspicious and concerned about. And if good answers with perhaps some of Abd's "wabbits" are not provided, your accusations could plausibly turn out to be right on target.

  • If Jed said that, he was having a bad day, or meant, "nothing particularly important". In the list, the second document was originally classified (and it is probably the only truly significant document, and it was already released before this, and it has been discussed here.)


    I had a beat-up, third generation copy of this for years. I think it was in the database. I did not even notice it was marked "distribution authorized to U.S. government agencies only." That is not the same as "classified," by the way. There is no penalty for distributing it as far as I know. That category is usually used for rough drafts and the like.


    Mel Miles had a much better original copy. He suggested I upload it. He mailed it to me. I scanned it and cleaned up the text ocr errors and some of the images. The copy shown here is the one I made. We talked to Pam. Just to make sure it was okay she asked them to give it a general release, which they did. I expect if we had asked in 1996 they would have said okay.


    I am pretty sure I have the others. I have roughly 1,200 papers in English I have not uploaded, a few hundred in Japanese, and many in Russian which I cannot read. I think most of them are in the database. Ed Storms compiled the database. I cross checked it with the database from Dieter Britz. I did not recall going through every paper I have on file to be sure it is in the database.


    I think I have most of the important papers. If I miss out on them, someone will send me a copy or ask for a copy and I will get one.


    There might be classified papers. I would not know about them, because they are classified. In general I have a low opinion of classified information. When I was growing up I knew many people who worked in intelligence during WWII and the cold war, including some from the Russian side. All of them are dead now. Anyway, they said that the New York Times has better information than the CIA, and that most classified information is useless.


    Some of these people had access to top level information. They were colorful people. One of them was the interpreter for meetings between FDR and Stalin. He was a captain in the U.S. army. He slept in a tent on the roof of the U.S. Embassy so as not to be bothered when he was off duty, and he was often late for meetings with top generals and probably with Mr. Roosevelt, so he became known as the Late Captain W.

  • Some of these people had access to top level information. They were colorful people.


    I have a little house in a very quiet corner of rural France. Quite a few of my neighbours are retired UK spooks. I asked one why so many lived there, he said 'because this is one place where you don't have to keep looking over your shoulder.' But they are often colourful characters too.

  • Exhibit 5 does not prove that the whole year long test was a giant hoax. All it does is ask some important questions that we need specific answers for. As of this time, I have not read a response from Andrea Rossi or Penon.


    Rossi and Penon did not answer those questions. There are no answers. If he had any answers he would have provided them instead of filing suit.


    Those are not actually questions. They are assertions formatted as questions. The problems they describe, such as the fact that the pressure was 0.0 bar, and the exact same numbers were repeated day after day, were noted by everyone who looked at the data, including me. Exhibit 5 included some information I did not know, but I reached the same conclusions about the parts I knew about. I reached these conclusions independently, within 10 minutes of examining the data. I saw at once that it is impossible, it is nonsense, it is blatant fraud. If you do not see that, frankly, you have no clue how instruments work.


    Unless you think Exhibit 5 is a pack of lies concocted by I.H., you must admit that it proves the test was a fraud. Rossi cannot answer, and neither can you.


    Please, just continue calling bulls*it on all of us who don't fall in line like obedient brainwashed zombies with the TOTAL GIGANTIC HOAX WITH ZERO EXCESS HEAT narrative quite yet before we have Andrea Rossi's and Penon's responses on a huge number of issues.


    It is giant hoax, albeit an amateur one. That is what the Exhibit and the photos prove. No other interpretation is plausible. Rossi has not offered any other interpretation, and neither have you, Gluck or anyone else on Planet Rossi. Gluck's only response is to say Exhibit 5 is lies and that no pipe can be half full. You have not said anything as far as I know. You have not even tried to explain this. You just evade by saying, "I have not heard Rossi's response yet." Give us a break! What response could there be to 0.0 bar and the exact same numbers day after day?!? Including 1 MW of steady heat on days when the machine was turned off, for crying out loud. It is as fake as a reactor made of paper mache.

  • Jed has responded to this, but I want to express a different take.


    Exhibit 5 does not prove that the whole year long test was a giant hoax. All it does is ask some important questions that we need specific answers for. As of this time, I have not read a response from Andrea Rossi or Penon. These questions are simply a small number out of hundreds that need to be specifically addressed to Andrea Rossi. My hope is that if he does not answer these and many more questions during this phase, he will provide the answers during the trial. Once answers are provided -- even if they are legally forced out of him -- then we can make an assessment knowing BOTH sides of the story.


    It does not "prove" giant hoax, but displays some evidence that can be interpreted that way.


    What has been raised by Industrial Heat in their Answer etc., in general is evidence appearing very strong, that something was very, very off about Rossi's behavior. It was already known and generally accepted that Rossi is eccentric, with paranoid behavior, but a darker side shows up. Fake Hydro Fusion test failure -- or lying to IH, which was it? -- in 2012? Fake customer, and fake power "invoices"? WTF?


    Quote

    Please, just continue calling bulls*it on all of us who don't fall in line like obedient brainwashed zombies with the TOTAL GIGANTIC HOAX WITH ZERO EXCESS HEAT narrative quite yet before we have Andrea Rossi's and Penon's responses on a huge number of issues. I'll fully admit that there is a LOT to be suspicious and concerned about. And if good answers with perhaps some of Abd's "wabbits" are not provided, your accusations could plausibly turn out to be right on target.


    Come off the zombie rant! It's perfectly okay to express patience, to allow time for Rossi to Answer, even to hope for a Wabbit.


    What I want to acknowledge here is the recognition of possible plausibility to a different point of view than one's own. That is an attitude that can create useful conversations. Thanks.

  • Jed Rothwell and Abd,


    I do not know where I read it, but I'm sure I found a document or statement somewhere in the court papers explaining that the 0 bar reading actually represented atmospheric pressure and not vacuum. There is a chance I am mistaken (I've been doing a LOT of reading lately on many different topics) but I'm 90% sure that is specified somewhere. I'm going to search a little and try to find it.


    Abd,


    Thanks for the reasonable response. I agree that on the surface the information from IH does seem to indicate things were "off" about the test. This combined with additional revelations creates the impression that Andrea Rossi could have plausibly been up to something very deceptive. But I'm not about to make a personal determination until I've heard Rossi's side and Penon's side. One thing I've learned over time in my own offline life and experience is that coming to a conclusion about a matter knowing only one side of a story can often backfire. I'm the kind of person who loves to talk, and I'm overall a pretty good listener. I've had people tell me long, detailed stories about how another individual did them wrong or conspired against them. On occasion, I was convinced by their seemingly genuine words and the limited knowledge I had of the situation. Then later a whole new series of facts would be revealed that changed the "reality" of the story significantly! Often, it would place both parties somewhere in the middle of the guilty/innocent spectrum instead of being polar opposites.

  • I do not know where I read it, but I'm sure I found a document or statement somewhere in the court papers explaining that the 0 bar reading actually represented atmospheric pressure and not vacuum.


    Even if that were true, it is still not possible. If the pressure is 1 atm the steam will not go anywhere. Any back pressure from the heat exchanger must make the pressure higher than 1 atm, unless the room itself is a vacuum. This is explained in the Exhibit:


    "For steam to flow, a pressure differential is required to overcome the losses in the pipe. Given the foregoing, this would require that the pressure on the JMP side of the building was significantly below atmospheric (vacuum) and that the steam would flow at extraordinary velocity. But this was obviously not the situation present at the location."


    Rossi and Penon made many other impossible claims which are listed in this Exhibit. They could not explain a single one of them, and neither can you, or Gluck, or anyone else on Planet Rossi.


    I agree that on the surface the information from IH does seem to indicate things were "off" about the test. This combined with additional revelations creates the impression that Andrea Rossi could have plausibly been up to something very deceptive. But I'm not about to make a personal determination until I've heard Rossi's side and Penon's side.


    Things were "off"? "Could plausibly have been"?!? "An impression"??? What would it take for you to say this is fraud. How much more outrageous could they be? Imagine you come home, open the front door, and you find your furniture has been cut in pieces with a chainsaw, every dish in the kitchen is smashed, there is an ax through the TV . . . and you say: "Things seem a little off here. I get the impression someone trashed the place. I want to hear from the person who did this before I decide whether there is damage."


    There is no conceivable "side" for Rossi and Penon to present. If they had any answers, Rossi would have given those answers instead of filing a lawsuit. There is nothing they could do to make this fraud more blatant or more obvious. Heck, sending the "steam" into a pretend customer site alone tells you it is fraud. The fact that the room is not as hot as an oven tells you it cannot be real. It is incredible that you or anyone else believes this nonsense.

  • Here is the quote from exhibit 5.


    "The flow of steam through the pipe to J.M. Products.
    You stated that the pressure of the steam that was available to J.M. Products (JMP) was nominally atmospheric pressure (0 kilo Pascals gauge (kPaG) or 14.7 psia). The steam passed through a stretch of insulated pipe that was at least 6 meters long before entering the JMP space. (Presumably there was additional steam pipe on the JMP side.) According to the data you have reported, the conserved mass flow rate of the system from February to November 2015 was on average 33,558 kg/day (1398 kg/h) and the temperature of the water and steam were on average 68.7º C and 102.8º C, respectively. The steam pressure was reported (for the entire period) to be 0 kPaG and the piping is DN40."

    This explains to me that the zero bar pressure that you have reported many times here and elsewhere actually was supposed to represent a pressure of 14.7 psi or near atmospheric. This is from IH's own engineer, reporting what Penon had stated.


    So Penon claims that the steam pressure PROVIDED BY THE PLANT was 14.7psi.


    If the zero bar pressure had represented pure vacuum, that would have been absurd.


    Anyway, what we DO NOT KNOW is if the equipment of JM Chemical Products provided a lower pressure that pulled the steam along.


    I'm not a fluid dynamicist or an engineer, so I'm not going to try and estimate what quantity of steam could be transported along that tube. However, I'd guess that the amount thermal power in the form of steam capable of being transported exceeded the maximum electrical input power capable of being fed into the plant.

  • This explains to me that the zero bar pressure that you have reported many times here and elsewhere actually was supposed to represent a pressure of 14.7 psi or near atmospheric. This is from IH's own engineer, reporting what Penon had stated.


    So Penon claims that the steam pressure PROVIDED BY THE PLANT was 14.7psi.


    If the zero bar pressure had represented pure vacuum, that would have been absurd.


    You are confused.


    1. 14.7 psi = 1 atm. The steam could not have been at 1 atm, because it would not be able go through the heat exchanger. It would not move. It has to be more than 1 atm, unless the entire room is less than 1 atm. Which is impossible. That's what Exhibit 5 says.


    In short, 1 atm is just as impossible as a vacuum. It is just as absurd.


    2. Penon's data says 0.0 bar (a vacuum). It does not say 0.0 barG (1 atm). Perhaps that was a typo, and Penon meant to say "barG." The I.H. engineer apparently had the impression "barG" is what Penon meant to write. So what? It is STILL IMPOSSIBLE. 0.0 barG is just as impossible as 0.0 bar.


    This is fake data. So is the data repeated day after day with the exact same values. So is the massive excess heat reported on days when witnesses saw the machine was turned off and disassembled, and Rossi himself said it was turned off. Rossi cannot explain any of this, and he never tried to. You cannot explain any of it either.


    Anyway, what we DO NOT KNOW is if the equipment of JM Chemical Products provided a lower pressure that pulled the steam along.


    There is no equipment in the pretend factory. Only the 20 kW radiator shown in the photo. There were no people there. No materials or products were ever brought in or out. There was no more than 20 kW of heat coming out of the facility. It was all obviously fake.


    But suppose there is equipment and it does what you say. Why wouldn't Rossi say so? Why wouldn't he show this equipment to I.H? He would earn $89 million for doing this. This equipment would not be secret, or patented. It would be an ordinary vacuum pump, plus another pump to push condensed water out, because there would be no back pressure. It would be easy to show this equipment while hiding the other equipment, so please do not give me any blather about secret patented equipment at JM Enterprises.


    No one hides a vacuum pump when he can earn $89 million and avoid a lawsuit by showing it. I don't care how crazy Rossi is, he isn't that crazy.


    Finally, let me point out that 1 MW of steam in a device this size, with a pipe this size CANNOT POSSIBLY BE at 1 atm. That is enough steam to drive a 100 ton ship. It produces tremendous pressure. If a pipe carrying that much steam ruptures, a person standing next to it would be scalded to death in a few seconds. The notion that this steam would laze around in a cloud, waiting to be sucked in by a vacuum pump, is preposterous. And if it were true, the vacuum pump would have to be the size of a person, and it would make a terrific amount of noise. There was no noise and no activity in the pretend customer site.


    Here is a 100 ton ship with a 200 horsepower steam engine, which is roughly what you get with 1 MW of steam:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta_(steamboat_1908)