Apologies for the seriatim posts, I am just catching up on the thread. Interesting, spell check seriatim and the closest it had was Maserati.
Your legal insight is interesting Woodworker.
I disagree with your opinion that the I.P.
is worthless.It was the main reason Rossi
took I.H to Court.
Display MoreBut assuming a real (independent but gullible) customer, not another Rossi-controlled set-up, Rossi wouldn't be trying to cheat the customer. He'd want them to get what was promised or at least definitely over unity results, so they can credibly say that his tech is real and he can reap the investments that would follow.
He might even allow credible power measurement and proper checking of the input (from customer supply) and output (to customer's process).
How then to ensure the customer's bills are reduced? By smuggling in energy to the 'plant' to which only he has access. You can store a certain amount of chemical energy in a container of course... and 'unexpected difficulties' could mean Rossi delivers a lower output and COP than advertised (but still over unity) to make the stored fuel last longer.
Ideally (for Rossi) there'd be a second cable running off a separate supply (e.g. in plain sight under the guise of being just for the 'remote control' comms) to provide the 'excess heat'. Otherwise, watch out for regular 'maintenance' visits from Rossi in a large car or van which parks up close to the unit, all shielded from view of course to 'protect the secrets'... or some excuse which means he needs to exchange the entire shipping container after the first few weeks, and then some contrived early end to the test after a few more weeks...
He could then crow about the tech having been 'proven' by a real customer, even if it was only just over unity and for a short period.
Can think of other possible methods to smuggle in 'excess heat', and also plenty of ways to detect/prevent any attempt to do so - kinda depends on how much control Rossi has over the installation and access. He'd be very unlikely to go ahead with anything but a fake customer, IMO, unless he can control the situation sufficiently to be able to minimise risk of detection.
But the point is that even with a 'real' customer who checks their bills carefully and declares at the end that they saved money, Rossi could still have been faking the results.
Rossi the heat smuggler.
That one makes me laugh and that’s hard
to find on this thread.
You should watch the documentary film ‘Cocaine Cowboys’. According to that, Miami and it’s economy was built on illicit money to a large degree.
Florida citizen Iggy still believes in Rossi
after 7 years of following A.R.
Dear Dr Rossi,
When you speak of a single module, do you mean a single reactor?
Best regards,
Iggie
Iggy Dalrymple:
Yes,
Warm Regards,
A.R.
Of course he still need to believe, because there is still no product...:-)
He probably will follow him til the very end.
You should watch the documentary film ‘Cocaine Cowboys’. According to that, Miami and it’s economy was built on illicit money to a large degree.
Does this mean that in Miami it's quite common to be supported by organized crime to make business in any field?
Rossi the heat smuggler.
That one makes me laugh...
Of course, Rossi answers (himself) already “loud and clear” that he would never do such things. - And that he isn’t looking for investors to give him money... but just for dumb partners (not sure where the difference is).
QuoteDisplay MoreAnonymous
July 4, 2018 at 9:25 PM
Dr Rossi:
Maybe you will spam this and I would understand.
Somebody is hinting that your strategy to sell heat and not plants is aimed to attract investors, hiding the fact that you will sell energy with a loss, but will get a lot of money from investors.
Please spam, this is dangerous! I just wanted to warn you of what your enemies are saying.
Andrea Rossi
July 4, 2018 at 9:38 PM
Anonymous:
Thank you for the warning.
Let me say sound and clear:
1- WE ARE NOT LOOKING FOR INVESTORS, BUT ONLY FOR CLIENTS. IT IS POSSIBLE SOME STRATEGICALLY IMPORTANT CUSTOMER WILL BE INVITED TO BECOME PARTNER , BUT THIS WILL HAPPEN AFTER THEY WILL HAVE USED OUR PLANTS FOR ENOUGH TIME TO GIVE TO THE PARTNERSHIP A FAIR VALUE BASED ON FACTS.
2- WE ARE NOT GOING TO MAKE AN IPO BEFORE OUR TECHNOLOGY WILL BE WIDELY DIFFUSED IN THE MARKET WITH THOUSANDS OF ECAT PLANTS
Warm Regards,
A.R.
That one makes me laugh...
(Not sure, if Rossi’s previous partner - IH - can also laugh...)
Does this mean that in Miami it's quite common to be supported by organized crime to make business in any field?
More a case of many unconnected ‘entrepreneurs’ having huge amounts of cash in the 80’s that needed putting somewhere. Something like one fifth of all US banknotes where stored in the vaults of Miami banks for a time. Some banks set up and only handled drug money, and charged appropriately large fees. Real estate was also a major sink of money. Miami was supposedly a smaller place with little going on in the 70’s. Watch the documentary.. it’s very good.
Obviously it's just a coincidence that "the great inventor" lives in Miami and is CEO of a real estate corp. REFC REAL ESTATE CORP.
If IH received any moneys from Woodford,
IF??
Woodford specifically said they were investing in LENR and never would have invested in IF/Cherokee if TD had told them the 1 MW p;ant didn't work.
Presumably Cherokee thought they could make money from Woodford's investment, so you can't just write it off the way you did.
You also seem to forget IH could write off what they paid Rossi as a tax loss.
I recall but can't locate a link for a case in which the maker of a quack device sued (for defamation) the individual who called them out as fakes. At the suggestion of the defendant, the judge strongly recommended (but IIRC did not order) that the litigants agree on a single expert and a test method, the test to be performed in view of the Court. At this point, the plaintiff quack dropped the suit.
@Adrian Ashfield
QuoteYou also seem to forget IH could write off what they paid Rossi as a tax loss.`
Sure they could. If they had ever had a profit. You can't write off losses against losses! So remind me please. How does IH earn money other than from victims gullibles speculators investors? As WW pointed out, they don't get taxed for investments.
But the point is that even with a 'real' customer who checks their bills carefully and declares at the end that they saved money, Rossi could still have been faking the results.
You must have a framed copy om the wall describing how how Rossi can cheat the customer by selling energy at a loss. He wouldn't need two cables as the customer doesn't get to see what he is doing but only pays for the heat received.
Of course the reactors don't cost anything to build and install and his current backer is to foolish to notice that hey don't work. Dream on until next year.
QuoteYou must have a framed copy om the wall describing how how Rossi can cheat the customer by selling energy at a loss.
I don't recall if this was exactly what Rossi did with IH but IIRC, it was at least his plan. Well, the plan/scheme was for an initial loss but he was counting on an $89M payoff at the end, ROTFWL!
Next year, @Adrian Ashfield ? It's always been next year. It has been "next year" or utter failure every year since 2011! Rossi would say SooN® but I believe that is a registered trademark of the former British (or was it Irish?) company, Steorn.
Rossi does not need such complexity. He chooses followers who are totally uninterested in or incapable of measuring power.
He didn't "choose" me. What about Focardi and the professors who were members of the scetic's society? Arrogant nonsense.
QuoteHe didn't "choose" me.
True! You self-selected.
QuoteWhat about Focardi and the professors who were members of the scetic's society? Arrogant nonsense.
They got fooled. It isn't the first time prominent scientists get conned and it won't be the last. Scientists are not looking for deception. I already gave you the flamingly blatant case of Theranos which you apparently ignored, as an example of gigantic scientific and high tech fraud which wasted billions! It was on track to enrich a pair of criminals and even now that the two will probably be jailed, much of the money might not ever be recovered. The size of the Theranos scam makes Rossi look like a gnat.
As far as improbable claims are concerned, scientists trust too much, way too much. And so do you.
You must have a framed copy om the wall describing how how Rossi can cheat the customer by selling energy at a loss. He wouldn't need two cables as the customer doesn't get to see what he is doing but only pays for the heat received.
Of course the reactors don't cost anything to build and install and his current backer is to foolish to notice that hey don't work. Dream on until next year.
Adrian, the whole point of my post is that Rossi would NOT be cheating the customer. In the scenario I outlined he would indeed be giving the customer excess heat, so the customer would see lower bills and could then report this as a success.
In reality of course Rossi would be paying for any 'excess' energy somehow delivered (by subterfuge rather than LENR), but that would be small beer compared to the value to him of an endorsement from a seemingly credible and independent customer.
Sure they could. If they had ever had a profit. You can't write off losses against losses!
Ah. So you think IH will never make any money and Woodford's investment is down the drain?
They got fooled. It isn't the first time prominent scientists get conned and it won't be the last. Scientists are not looking for deception
They said they were looking carefully for deception. And as members of the skeptic's society had had plenty of practice.
I believe them more than an anonymous babbler who has never been near a LENR reactor.
QuoteAh. So you think IH will never make any money and Woodford's investment is down the drain?
I don't know that however I strongly suspect that IH and Woodford will not make money on LENR. What they may do is provide very valuable competent basic research and perhaps even answers regarding whether or not researchers like Miley, Brillouin's people, Swartz, Hagelstein, Mosier-Boss, Mizuno, GEC, Mitsubishi and so on, have experiments which can be reliably and independently replicated and suggest that LENR is real. I don't think they will make anything that produces commercial level power. Maybe not for years, maybe never. (Just opinion of course)
On the other hand, if IH continues to do like they did with Rossi, whatever they find won't be worth much. Remember that Darden only discovered Rossi's flagrant lies by accident! He didn't choose to experiment with unfueled reactors though someone at IH should certainly have thought of doing their own trials and doing them that way!
QuoteThey said they were looking carefully for deception. And as members of the skeptic's society had had plenty of practice.
So what Adrian? OK, I should have said, they did not do a good job of looking for deception (I can give many examples) and they were not sufficiently suspicious and cautious. I can look carefully at Penn and Teller and watch them all day and not detect deception. That doesn't mean they actually make things appear and disappear from "thin air."
QuoteI believe them more than an anonymous babbler who has never been near a LENR reactor.
Leaving aside what critics being anonymous or a blabber has to do with whether one can believe Rossi and his believers or not, are you not also an "anonymous blabber?" I mean maybe you really are who you say but how would we know and way more important, why should we care? You're not an authority on testing reactors for function and COP, are you? And have you ever been near any LENR reactor, whatever that is? And if so, how does being near one make a difference? You fail to make sense, you know?
And of course, Rossi believers tend not to believe Kirk Shanahan who is not anonymous, actually works with nuclear reactors, is trained about nuclear reactors, and has actually performed calculations and tests relevant to them. I think believers believe what they want to. You and Sam are excellent current examples of it as are many contributors to e-catworld.com.
He didn't "choose" me. What about Focardi and the professors who were members of the scetic's society? Arrogant nonsense.
Let me be more precise. Rossi attracts many enthusiastic people via his blog. In the past when he has wanted PR from academics etc he has been able to find professors who support him. It is Rossi choosing in the sense that anyone who is hostile to Rossi, or not hostile but asks challenging questions about tests, gets shut down and if they persist called a snake.
Many examples of this:
Josephson (on closing a loophole in the early tests) ignored. Strange to ignore an uber-friendly nobel prize winner.
Krivit, on tightening early tests, quickly promoted to snake variety. Krivit then became a formidable Rossi enemy replying in kind, but he was awarded snake status at a time when he was personally inclined to beleive Rossi because his view was that WL explanation of LENR is correct and tehrefore Ni-H fusion expected (with Cu as one reaction product). that was at the tiem of Krivit's involvement rossi's story.
The Lugano profs. (And members of skeptic society). They have in their public writings on Rossi been consistently non-skeptical - as many have noted - which just shows that membership of a society - or even president of a branch of it - does not guarantee anything at all! They themselves say, of the possibility of Rossi switching fuel/ash to obtain the clearly bogus transmutation results, that they did not consider the possibility of Rossi being other than 100% honest. Given that he has been present at all tests, and in fact the Lugano profs have only made flying visits to setups that Rossi or his henchman Fulvio tend 24/7 (that applies to Lugano and also, I strongly suspect, Ferrara) that casts a very long shadow on the results.
As for arrogant: I feel your persistent hostile adjectives posted here about those with views different from you might qualify for that term: they are not supported by evidence in your posts and very opinionated. Whereas many of us here take time to explain with copious evidence what are the reasons for our views.
JedRothwell"They did not believe the claims and... "
I'd like to hear your thoughts about the claims of GEC and the published works and academic efforts of Grimshaw and LENRGY. Vaporware or what?
Lyndon B Johnson School of Public Affairs, The University of Texas at Austin... Forsley is 'just down the hall'... Meaning 'close by'. You remain eerily silent.
Along with Grimshaw you created LENRGY, please tell us why.
This message seems to be addressed to me. Anyway, I am in Atlanta, not Austin. I have no idea where Forsley is, and I do not know what LENRGY is. Never heard of it.
