Sam, why don't you post this to Rossi and ask him how he could have the audacity to claim he has a safety cert. Ask him if he thinks the people on JONP are fools to believe him.
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I was thinking about posting it on Rossi blog but
i thought i would see what they had to say on LF first.
Not much yet but the day is not done.
BTW i am having trouble with access to LENR Forum.
Anyone else having this problem?
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Barty has been working on this all day- its a datacenter problem
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Rossi making do via skype.
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Sam
June 7, 2020 at 9:22 AM
Hello DR Rossi
Have there been any advantages
living and working in the same
building during C.V. outbreak?
Any advantages communicating
via Skype?
Regards
Sam
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Andrea Rossi
June 7, 2020 at 12:11 PM
Sam:
No advantages, some hurdle to overcome to make a functional lab in-house, but we did all, exploiting all the advantages supplied by the Skype technology ( God bless the inventors of it
I have many shortcomings, but one talent I surely have: wherever you put me, whatever the conditions, I never give up and adjust myself to the situation, whatever it is, to reach the target we need. Sooner or later as it might be possible. And the persons of our Team, women and men, black and white, are made of the same raw material.Warm Regards,
A.R.
Lenr Forum loaded no problem this time.
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Sam
June 7, 2020 at 9:22 AM
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Those guys were before my time here I suppose. I wonder what they're up to these days.
There is a reason to not show off certifications. I've heard that certifiers may frown against it and there are confidentiality agreements to that end.
From an SGS website:
"4.6 The Client may only reproduce or publish extracts of any report of SGS if the name of SGS does not appear in any way or the Client has obtained the prior written authorisation of SGS. SGS reserves its rights to lodge a complaint in case of disclosure in breach of this clause or disclosure which SGS considers in its sole discretion is abusive. The Client shall not publicise details of the way in which SGS performs, conducts or executes its operations."
7. REPORT AND CERTIFICATE OWNERSHIP AND INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY
Any document including, but not limited to any Report or any Certificate, provided by SGS and the copyright contained therein shall be and remain the property of SGS and the Client shall not alter or misrepresent the contents of such documents in any way. The Client shall be entitled to make copies for its internal purposes only. Duplicates of Certificates are available upon request for external communication purposes.
8. COMMUNICATION
The Client may promote its certification in accordance with the terms set out in the Regulations governing the use of the certification marks. Use of SGS’ corporate name or any other registered trademarks for advertising purposes is not permitted without SGS’ prior written consent.
9. CONFIDENTIALITY
9.1 As used herein, “Confidential Information” shall mean any oral or written proprietary information that a party may acquire from the other party pursuant to the Contract or information as to the business of the other party provided, however, that Confidential Information shall not include any information which (1) is or hereafter becomes generally known to the public; (2) was available to the receiving party on a non-confidential basis prior to the time of its disclosure by the disclosing party; (3) is disclosed to a party by an independent third party with a right to make such disclosure. "
Anyway. "Rossi says" he has had two certifications in the past.
From e-cat.com/about
SEP 5, 2012
Safety Certificate of E-CAT 1 MW Plant, SGS
JULY 7, 2013
Safety Certificate of E-CAT -HT by Bureau Veritas
MarkU,
Your points I believe all have pretty much to do with the contracts between a certification agency (such as UL) and the customer asking for certification. Not the certification itself. As I stated, EVERY electrical device in the US has a UL certification sticker on it. It gives not proprietary info.
Your above debate is a bit like saying... "I am going to pay you a large sum of money to certify my product" and then the agency stating in return "OK, we will certify your product but you must keep everything secret, you cannot use it!"
This would not make sense.. the reason for a certification is to allow for public disclosure that your product meets requirements.... which brings up another major reason why we know Rossi does not have an eCat certified....
As others have mentioned, you can only get certified to an established standard. There are no standards set for a heating device that has a novel reaction at its core. An electric heater standard will not work, nor would a gas heater nor even a "nuclear" heater. (Even if one was available, as there is not) These standards are made by industry and government entities and quite explicitly state not only the working design requirements, but also very clearly state what the manufacturing FACILITY but pass as well. Certs are not just given to products, but they are linked very closely to the manufacturing facility as well.
I have went through several UL and EU certifications and can tell you from experience, what Rossi is saying is complete BS. His SGS cert, which I actually read, was useless. It was a self certification (meaning SGS never once saw or tested an eCat) that covered rudimentary control systems, such as electrical boxes etc. That cert clearly and absolutely stated it was not to be used for commercial or advertising purposes. It was a self certification that one can use to prepare or do a "test audit" for an actual cert. Some here have said that SGS has pulled even that rudimentary cert from Rossi as he was abusing it's use clause for advertising.
So, while I appreciate your thoughts above, I believe surely you realize that any industrial use or safety certification would not be required to remain secret. That would totally void or contradict the very reason one would obtain a cert in the first place.
I suggest you try holding Rossi accountable for his statements instead of trying to come up with a defense for him! Ask him why he cannot show the certs! He will either not answer you (delete your post) or give a BS answer about IP protection and NDA's. I can guarantee you that neither are valid. Also, ask him to what standard he received a certification to! Again, you will not get an answer because he has not received any valid certs.
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because he has not received any valid certs
Or, if he has, he has lied to get them. Safety cert for electric heater is a lot easier than safety cert for nuclear heating device. Not that any of Rossi's stuff I've seen so far could ever be safety certified... All too heath robinson.
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Mark
Do you know or anyone else aboutobtaining Safety Certification.
I am in touch with someone who
does and this is what he said about it.
As of today, there is no approved industry standard that could be applied to a "virtual particle/zitterbewegung" reactor. Any standard would have to go through several ANSI/ASTM/IEEE/NEMA/UL/CSA/etc. committees to be drafted, reviewed, and approved. This alone would take 18 to 24 months.. I know, because I used to review nuclear safety standards. No "potential customer" of any kind could legally buy one of Rossi's devices or operate it in any environment without a safety cert. For example, if anything went wrong, their insurers would refuse to pay any claim.
This is absolutely correct. UL and EU certifications are only to industry standards. Those standards are developed over a period of submittals and reviews from various industry organizations such as SAE (society for automotive engineers) etc. You cannot simply take something to a certification agency and say "I want it certified". There is a set of procedures and requirements for every certification. They may include onsite visits of the manufacturing facility by the agency. They almost always required multiple samples to be tested. But most importantly, they require an approved and acknowledge standard to test to. This standard will clearly define every step of the testing procedure, the number of samples, testing parameters, etc. etc.
And MOST interesting, they test will ALWAYS be conducted by the certification agency personnel AND their measuring equipment / protocols. Rossi would HAVE to allow them access to his eCat to run and measure the tests. While IP information can be protected and does not have to be revealed, the measuring and running of the test would be done by the agency.
Rossi will NEVER allow that as he knows his eCat is a scam.
The above points are why Rossi does not publish a certification.... he simply does not have any..... and to try obtain a cert would expose his scam.
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Mark
Do you know or anyone else aboutobtaining Safety Certification.
I am in touch with someone who
does and this is what he said about it.
As of today, there is no approved industry standard that could be applied to a "virtual particle/zitterbewegung" reactor. Any standard would have to go through several ANSI/ASTM/IEEE/NEMA/UL/CSA/etc. committees to be drafted, reviewed, and approved. This alone would take 18 to 24 months.. I know, because I used to review nuclear safety standards. No "potential customer" of any kind could legally buy one of Rossi's devices or operate it in any environment without a safety cert. For example, if anything went wrong, their insurers would refuse to pay any claim.
This is absolutely correct. UL and EU certifications are only to industry standards. Those standards are developed over a period of submittals and reviews from various industry organizations such as SAE (society for automotive engineers) etc. You cannot simply take something to a certification agency and say "I want it certified". There is a set of procedures and requirements for every certification. They may include onsite visits of the manufacturing facility by the agency. They almost always required multiple samples to be tested. But most importantly, they require an approved and acknowledge standard to test to. This standard will clearly define every step of the testing procedure, the number of samples, testing parameters, etc. etc.
And MOST interesting, they test will ALWAYS be conducted by the certification agency personnel AND their measuring equipment / protocols. Rossi would HAVE to allow them access to his eCat to run and measure the tests. While IP information can be protected and does not have to be revealed, the measuring and running of the test would be done by the agency.
Rossi will NEVER allow that as he knows his eCat is a scam.
The above points are why Rossi does not publish a certification.... he simply does not have any..... and to try obtain a cert would expose his scam.
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Or, if he has, he has lied to get them. Safety cert for electric heater is a lot easier than safety cert for nuclear heating device. Not that any of Rossi's stuff I've seen so far could ever be safety certified... All too heath robinson.
I really doubt Rossi could lie and get a certificate. He might get a Safety Certificate similar to the SGS one that only states the controls he uses are certified, but that cert would clearly state is was for controls only and not the "reactor" itself.
Almost all certs, such as existing heaters, require adherence to set standards. Such as tip over switches, etc. etc. Then the units have to be given to the certifying agency for their testing. While the agency would not be verifying COP, etc. they would be testing a working unit, not just some paperwork. I doubt that Rossi could lie his way through, nor would he allow testing without his absolute control / oversight.
Especially if he stated the unit was of a novel reactor / heat source, a testing agency would not touch it! They would not have A) specifications for any testing b) without specifications / known heat source, safety precautions would not allow them to test.
If Rossi said it was simply an electric heater, then they might test it, but then that is all his cert would say.... which is what SOT has said for years.... Rossi has nothing but an electrical heater!
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But Sam and Mark U won't ask him about these obvious lies in regard to certification. They will instead remember his birthday and offer copious praise, in a self deprecating fashion, as well as share all sorts of fascinating article posts for which Rossi will bless them with Warm Regards.
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I think we behave because almost everyone or perhaps everyone in this Rossi forum is here to have fun. Nobody really expects anything from Rossi anymore. (Well, I'll be corrected if I'm wrong I suppose)
I'm here to have some fun, but I for one mostly expect Rossi to produce the goods. I also do have some expectation that he will not deliver the goods (because the invention seems too good to be true.) Few people in the universe can hold these two opposing expectations at once without losing their mental equilibrium.
(And who is to say I haven't already lost mine? But my wife hasn't complained ... yet)
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@ Bob2, surely you are speaking about certification at the manufacturing level of a device. For one-off products that are still in R&D and used/field-tested in an industrial setting, the rules are not as stringent. When Rossi talks about getting safety certification, I assume this regards the general safety of his device operating in an industrial setting and under certain conditions.
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Sam
June 7, 2020 at 6:42 PM
Hello DR Rossi
I received an EMail from someone
who has knowledge of safety certification
and this is what they said.
"As of today, there is no approved industry standard that could be applied to a “virtual particle/zitterbewegung” reactor. Any standard would have to go through several ANSI/ASTM/IEEE/NEMA/UL/CSA/etc. committees to be drafted, reviewed, and approved. This alone would take 18 to 24 months.
. I know, because I used to review nuclear safety standards. No “potential customer” of any kind could legally buy one of Rossi’s devices or operate it in any environment without a safety cert. For example, if anything went wrong, their insurers would refuse to pay any claim."
Can you comment on this?
Regards
Sam
Andrea Rossi
June 8, 2020 at 2:21 AM
Sam:
The safety certification is based on precise measurements of specific parameters related to safety, like radiations, etc., not to theoretical hypothesis of Physics. We already obtained the safety certification.
Besides, the zitterbewegung is not a virtual particle, as you can understand here:
http://www.researchgate.net/pu…nge_particle_interactions
Should the things that are subject to “zitterbewegung” of electrons be not certifiable, then nothing in this world could be certified, because electrons are part of every product existing in the world.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
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@MarkU: Sam12 has never been willing to explain. Maybe you will. What possible reason could you have for believing Rossi is not a co man with nothing of any value? It would be fascinating to know.
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I.O
Even Rossi does not know if he has
anything of value but he is working
on it.I take his word that he is working on the ECatSKL.
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I.O
Even Rossi does not know if he has
anything of value but he is working
on it.I take his word that he is working on the ECatSKL.
Sam, I think Rossi knows he has something of great value. Yes, he talks as if the results could be positive or negative from third party testing, but I think that is him downplaying his accomplishment out of modesty, and a little bit of mischief.
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@MarkU: Sam12 has never been willing to explain. Maybe you will. What possible reason could you have for believing Rossi is not a co man with nothing of any value? It would be fascinating to know.
I.O., it's a bunch of smaller reasons that, to me, point to one direction. Reasons like : his drive to accomplishment, his tenacity, his capacity for learning, his strong philosophical bent, his seriousness, his humour and playfulness, the company of collaborators he keeps through the years, and more. Even his recent distancing from the LENR terminology I take as a hint that he is intent on bringing a working product to market.
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Should the things that are subject to “zitterbewegung” of electrons be not certifiable, then nothing in this world could be certified, because electrons are part of every product existing in the world.
Rossi then added, "Last, but not least: we obtained the safety certification."
So it appears that hurdle has been overcome.
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Rossi then added, "Last, but not least: we obtained the safety certification."
So it appears that hurdle has been overcome.
There are mainly two levels of certification:
1) for industrial applications,
2) for domestic applications.
Rossi is probably referring to the industrial certifications.
If he has the guts, he should show the certificate(s) (like he did with one of his obtained patents). -
There are mainly two levels of certification:
1) for industrial applications,
2) for domestic applications.
Rossi is probably referring to the industrial certification.
If he has the guts, he should show the certificate(s) (like he did with one of his obtained patents).All he has to do is show the CE mark permanently affixed to the device that he made.
