Rossi-Blog Comment Discussion

  • Entertainment continues... :-)

    1. Eike January 11, 2019 at 8:30 AM

      Dear Dr Andrea Rossi:

      Which are the characteristics that a potential customer must have to be fit for the Ecat?

    2. Andrea Rossi January 11, 2019 at 9:14 AM

      Eike:

      1- must be an industrial concern or a centralized heat distribution facility

      2- must give evidence that really already consumes the thermal energy he claims to need

      3- must give financial references to guarantee to be able to pay the bills

      4- must be in a geographic area where we are organized to serve

      5- must be a well consolidated activity

      6- must have all the necessary authorizations, certifications and permits necessary to make their activity

      This is the preliminar screening, after which specific situations must be analyzed.

      Warm Regards,

      A.R.


    Rossi will probably have a hard time to be able to deliver, if the customer finally meets all his requirements (what a limitation of doing business, btw) and by chance may ask for Rossi's permits and certifiactions (6- must have all the necessary authorizations, certifications and permits necessary to make their activity). So we will have to wait for the next customers quite a while, and of course they will remain secret and unknown, but very satisfied :-)

  • A business owner with greater than sea slug intelligence would need to consider the long list of alternative ways to save 20% on their heating bills before considering a crackpot scheme involving a serial scammer and a completely unknown, untested and possibly illegal technology. Therefore, if people here are trying to suss out the identity of Rossi’s customer, they should narrow it down to companies run by morons.

  • Wonder what he means by the customer "must have all the necessary certifications and authorizations"...For the Ecat, or for his place of business? Whatever, I sure do not see many takers for this deal either way. Very amateurish, on top of all the things IO mentions. Then with him openly admitting it produces ionizing radiations within the shielding; I do not see how any legitimate company would even let him in the door.


    Still fun to follow. Looking forward to the demo that now sounds like it may be like a pyrotechnic show. Then the year following with the endless questions on JONP about "is the customer happy/saving money" the answers, etc. And you never know, there is always that possibility he has a special twist to this stage production, as compared to the last.

  • The sixth is nonsense (symptom of a fake customer again), which customer has necessary authorizations, certifications and permits to have in operation in house an unknown device nuclear?

    The added seventh characteristic of the potential customer can be the most important.


    2. Andrew.Red January 11, 2019 at 9:14 AM

    Eike:

    1- ...

    2- ...

    3- ...

    4- ...

    5- ...

    6- ...

    7- must be enough gullible and unable to discover my tricks and available (despite the IH bad affair) still to believe to my says

    This is the preliminar screening, after which specific situations must be analyzed.

    Mocking Regards,

    Andrew.Red.

  • Rossi, strictly speaking, has never in his life had a retail customer he has been able to name. And he has never sold a real product to any company or institution either -- not one that he has ever acknowledged by name. What he did accomplish was to get investment and research and prototype money under false pretenses and by the use of lies and scams. Those projects were the Petroldragon environmental catastrophe, the thermoelectric converter scam, and all the ecat versions, whatever they are called. And none has ever been proven to have worked. Rossi also claimed to have been involved in a biofuels company and that might be but there is no clear evidence I have seen about what it did and whether or not it ever made money. Obviously, Rossi never actually needs anyone or any company to be a customer for him to claim he has one. It's so much easier for him to simply lie about it. And sam12 and Adrian Ashfield and like thinking Rossi-buddies will reliably treat the silly claims as probable truth.

  • A business owner with greater than sea slug intelligence would need to consider the long list of alternative ways to save 20% on their heating bills before considering a crackpot scheme involving a serial scammer and a completely unknown, untested and possibly illegal technology. Therefore, if people here are trying to suss out the identity of Rossi’s customer, they should narrow it down to companies run by morons.

    Where are the risk takers that built the US gone.Maybe Tom Darden

    is the last one alive.It did not work

    out for him but I still admire him for

    rolling the the dice on Rossi technology.



  • sam12

    Quote

    Where are the risk takers that built the US gone.Maybe Tom Darden

    is the last one alive.It did not work

    out for him but I still admire him for

    rolling the the dice on Rossi technology.


    What?! ROTFWL! There was no need to roll dice on Rossi's so-called technology. Ever hear of testing inventions before giving the inventor millions? By capable and reliable third parties who are not involved with the inventor? Darden's pioneering spirit might be laudable but he majorly screwed the pooch in his approach to Rossi. Essentially everything he did about and with Rossi was simply stupid. And well... he got a predictable result. "It didn't work out for him" is quite an understatement. It didn't work out for Darden in the same sense that jumping out of a car and approaching a wild lion to pet him didn't work out for a tourist in Africa a few years ago. The lion killed the tourist and partly ate him.

  • Darden's pioneering spirit might be laudable but he majorly screwed the pooch in his approach to Rossi. Essentially everything he did about and with Rossi was simply stupid.


    IMO, you are too harsh on Darden. He knew Rossi's checkered history before he even approached him to work out a deal. He considered the $1.5 million upfront money for the 1MW unit, and the $10 mil to Rossi after the "successful" validation test in Italy worth the risk, just to see if he had something. The court records showed him saying a number of times "even if there is a small chance". So he knew the odds, he knew Rossi, and certainly was not stupid.

  • I guess everything is OK, because there is a red button to push just in case:


    1. Yuri January 11, 2019 at 1:03 PM

      In the list you put in the answer to Eike we must consider another point: the customer must accept that the control is made from your company in remote mode.

      How do you concile this if in case of emergency not dependent from the Ecat, the same Ecat has to be stopped immediately?

    2. Andrea Rossi January 11, 2019 at 1:09 PM

      Yuri:

      You are right, the Customer must accept the remote control made from us. Every Ecat is supplied by a red mushroom emergency botton by which it can be stopped onsite, independently from the reason. The operator that will stop the Ecat will send us immediately a warning and will ask us when to restart it.

      Warm Regards,

      A.R.

  • Wonder what he means by the customer "must have all the necessary certifications and authorizations"...For the Ecat, or for his place of business? Whatever, I sure do not see many takers for this deal either way. Very amateurish, on top of all the things IO mentions. .

    This search for a customers for heat is anyway just smoke and mirror again, which should make the e-cat look genuine. - Same distraction from the real goal as in 2012, when he talked about “pre-order list for home e-cats”, his plans with Home-Depot, and the “distributor licenses” for 1MW plants (No one of his distributor ever sold a single 1MW plant, because no one of their prospective buyer got approved by Rossi ).


    I am sure Rossi is not interessted in any customer to buy heat.

    I believe he wants to find some guys again, who buy into his e-cat IP / patent instead.


    Same ”money making” as he did in 2012.

    Also at that time he didn’t say anything in public that he is actually looking for a partner/investor... But behind the scene he got IH on the hook to buy the e-cat “IP” (which is worthless - as they learned it later painfully).


    Obviously, you can’t make money by selling heat when your technology doesn’t work.

    But, as we have seen with IH, you can make money when you find one who bites into the bait and buys the useless IP.

  • Shane D.

    Quote

    The court records showed him saying a number of times "even if there is a small chance". So he knew the odds, he knew Rossi, and certainly was not stupid.

    You miss the point entirely. There is no necessity to take a chance on a known criminal and liar and there is no reason to "know the odds." What Darden should have known before giving $11.5M to a crook was whether or not the ecat, any ecat, actually worked, defined as Eout significantly greater than Ein under meaningful test conditions. If that condition had been met within a reliable test by an "indipendent" tester, then risking that large amount of money would have been justified. $11.5M isn't trivial. It would support a large amount of real LENR research. So, I have no idea whether or not Darden is stupid but what he did is beyond stupid and completely unnecessary. And because Rossi is vicious as well as crooked, Rossi cost Darden and IH unknown numbers of additional millions for the law suit. I would not call trusting Rossi or his close associates anything other than stupid.

  • Shane D.

    You miss the point entirely. There is no necessity to take a chance on a known criminal and liar and there is no reason to "know the odds." What Darden should have known before giving $11.5M to a crook was whether or not the ecat, any ecat, actually worked, defined as Eout significantly greater than Ein under meaningful test conditions. If that condition had been met within a reliable test by an "indipendent" tester, then risking that large amount of money would have been justified. $11.5M isn't trivial. It would support a large amount of real LENR research. So, I have no idea whether or not Darden is stupid but what he did is beyond stupid and completely unnecessary. And because Rossi is vicious as well as crooked, Rossi cost Darden and IH unknown numbers of additional millions for the law suit. I would not call trusting Rossi or his close associates anything other than stupid.


    It is more nuanced than that. Like all good cons, and indeed all sensible high-risk investments, Darden's involvement was phased. Darden was suspicious of Rossi's tests, but before handing over the $10M he had taken a punt by paying Rossi $1M or so to get "independent testing". The tests signed off by the team of Swedish academics and Levi were not great, but could easily be seen at the time as providing some level of independent validation. Enough perhaps to take a punt on $10M in order to do proper in-house testing.


    Darden's mistake was not initially to have skeptical and highly trained testers capable of seeing through smoke and mirrors backed by independent academics. For that you need somone able to do a deep technical analysis of the tests, able to assert their views over others, and wanting to test setups given to them in different ways to ensure valid results. The results from the in-house replicated Lugano-style tests were so good it perhaps seemed unnecessary - and they had been signed off by those 6 profs.


    But he could not even do in-house testing without the $10M, and that is where he took a punt on a whole sequence of tests, culminating in Ferrara, that were conducted (it seemed) independently. Lugano came after as extra validation for Woodward (but maybe before the $10M - not sure)?


    If you want to cast blame for lack of due diligence - look to Levi and the Swedish guys.


    PS - I hope I've got the exact time-frame here right - if not I can be corrected.

  • But in this way the field got $50M to support LENR research. The Ecat initiative was a great financial success for the LENR field, the best in 30-year, and was achieved with a fair PR cost.

    Where do you get the 50M figure from?

    Recall that IH was already supporting groups other than Rossi before.

    Please give me how you get that number. Frankly I don't believe it.

  • I have already answered you about these topics. See, please, Rossi-Blog Comment Discussion

    I do not see how you get that figure. You seem to assume-wrongly- that the ecat was the only thing IH had in its portfolio that was worth Woodford's investment. That is clearly not the case. You can see how their evaluate of IH more than doubled after they returned the IP to Rossi who evidently was considered by them as a liability. Their evaluation has climbed faster without Rossi than with it. And your claim that ICCF would have folded without Rossi is clearly wrong since at ICCF21 there was no mention or papers based on Rossi's claims. You just keep pushing a clearly false narrative.

  • The thing about IH that was consistent with the whole Rossi extravaganza right out the gate is that they did not have any physical presence or other evidence of being anything more than a company on paper. They were created only months before the Rossi investment and had no address other than that of the VC fund run by Darden and Vaughn. If they are more than just a funding vehicle at this point, it is not self-evident. Do they have a facility? Technical people? Capabilities beyond writing checks? Perhaps those things are known here, but I haven’t seen any evidence. Perhaps like everything else in the world of Rossi, it is all a deep dark secret. For this reason, the whole narrative of “is the good guy Rossi or IH” always struck me as an absurd comparison of apples and oranges.

  • The thing about IH that was consistent with the whole Rossi extravaganza right out the gate is that they did not have any physical presence or other evidence of being anything more than a company on paper. They were created only months before the Rossi investment and had no address other than that of the VC fund run by Darden and Vaughn. If they are more than just a funding vehicle at this point, it is not self-evident. Do they have a facility? Technical people? Capabilities beyond writing checks? Perhaps those things are known here, but I haven’t seen any evidence. Perhaps like everything else in the world of Rossi, it is all a deep dark secret. For this reason, the whole narrative of “is the good guy Rossi or IH” always struck me as an absurd comparison of apples and oranges.


    Old IH lab below, with the old Blue Container in front of bay door. The newer place looked much nicer.


    Edit: Not much of a trail before Rossi 2012


    ?thumbnail=1


    Rossi vs. Darden developments [CASE CLOSED]

  • A press release a real company does not make. Their address is still the VC office, they have no website, and go ahead and try to find any evidence of an actual operating company. People here talk about Industrial Heat as though they were some prestigious laboratory filled with state-of-the-art equipment and staffed by world-class scientists. Really? Perhaps they are located down the block from one of Rossi’s factories. And perhaps they have received the same waver from having to get any licenses, permits, or other documentation that even a hot dog stand would require. Or perhaps they really are a paper tiger. Even if somebody thinks they are worth $112m.

  • I do not see how you get that figure. You seem to assume-wrongly- that the ecat was the only thing IH had in its portfolio that was worth Woodford's investment. That is clearly not the case.


    Please, give a better look to the quote from Shane D. included in my cited answer.


    Quote

    And your claim that ICCF would have folded without Rossi is clearly wrong since at ICCF21 there was no mention or papers based on Rossi's claims. You just keep pushing a clearly false narrative.


    I said a different thing: no Ecat > no investments > no money for LENR > no more ICCFs

    The thing about IH that was consistent with the whole Rossi extravaganza right out the gate is that they did not have any physical presence or other evidence of being anything more than a company on paper. They were created only months before the Rossi investment ...


    Not months, but ("on or about") 2 days before:

    From http://coldfusioncommunity.net…2016/11/0029.0_Answer.pdf [bold added]


    40. Defendants admit that Plaintiffs negotiated the terms of what would become the

    License Agreement. Defendants also admit that the License Agreement was executed on

    October 26, 2012 by Plaintiffs. Defendants further admit that Rossi traveled to Cherokee’s

    office in North Carolina to execute the License Agreement. …


    42. Defendants lack sufficient knowledge or information to admit or deny the

    allegations as to Plaintiffs’ knowledge of the timing of the formation of Industrial Heat.

    Defendants admit that Industrial Heat was formed on or about October 24, 2012. …

  • If you believe that low level LENR effects have been widely observed, but are not understand, and must be nuclear, as most do here, then Darden's actions make perfect sense.


    (1) LENR looks like a good long-term bet that might save the planet but seems far from commercialisation because people have been trying so long without success.

    (2) Rossi was once working with LENR guys, and claims clearly commercialisable results even though he is working out of a box and himself not technically qualified. This must be possible, even if by a fluke a replication of a late Focardi breakthrough. The many demos, although they all have obvious flaws except Ferrara, and none are independent, give enough credibility that whatever you think of Rossi - and I think even when forming IH Darden here to have saw him as a totally undesirable person to have a business relationship with - you would reasonably take a long ods but very high pay-off bet that Rossi had the goods. The reward is very high, and as is fair the risk is also very high. No-one else would have given Rossi proper money and attention, to enable commercialisation, for the reasons we know. Darden has a high appetite for risk.


    While from my position he did the wrong thing - Rossi's demos were bad technically in ways Darden was not aware of, and to a technical person Rossi's PR on his blog is particularly distasteful because so mendacious - I can see easily how it would make sense to him and i do not blame him for that.


    Rossi would be the straw that broke the camel's back in terms of provoking an LENR investment. Both for Darden, and because the same hope would motivate other people to stump up money.


    Darden is on record as saying (I think) that Rossi's stuff, if real, would short circuit 10 or 20 years worth of expected research.

  • I said a different thing: no Ecat > no investments > no money for LENR > no more ICCFs


    That's pretty ridiculous. Conferences go on all the time for the strangest reasons, and even make a little (or a lot of) money. There is no shortage of hotels willing to give amazing 'off season' bargains to organisers either.

  • If you believe that low level LENR effects have been widely observed, but are not understand, and must be nuclear, as most do here, then Darden's actions make perfect sense.


    It's a non-scientific premise. From a scientific point of view you have to consider only facts. In this case you can only say that LENR effects have been widely claimed, not necessarily observed. In reality these claims have not generally been replicated, so they have not been endorsed by the broad scientific community. This situation is and was well known to everybody, including scientists and investors.


    The big difference between "claims" and "observations" is well exemplified, IMO, by the time misrepresentation on Figure 8 in the F&P paper at ICCF3 (1). It's not the only mistake and misrepresentation made by the two CF's pioneers, but - being the basis of the Heat After Death claim - it was one of the most important, because it was widely cited in the subsequent works of F&P and other cold fusionists.


    It is also a mistake that is very easy to detect and recognize. Well, can you please explain how it could have happened? I mean both the misrepresentation and the consequent belief in the HAD claim professed by all the LENR experts and supporters.


    (1) FP's experiments discussion